Do me a favor and learn to back your campers! I was at Fort Wilderness (Disney) last week and got to enjoy the sights and sounds of people who should not go camping till they learn to back a camper. Got to watch one guy try for 20 minutes to back his pop up into his campsite while his wife hollered at him ( I started to ask the guy if he wanted me to back it in there for him but figured it would just have upset him more ) , then we got to enjoy the sounds of a new looking 5th wheel camper being dragged down the side of a tree while backing into their campsite. I really hated to see and hear that nice camper being dragged like that. I drove over 1500 miles last week and seen lots of pop ups on the road but never did see a PUT s sticker any where. Were you all hiding [:D]
YellowXterraYes, I believe we have all seen some REALLY BAD back-ups over the years. The stories we could tell!
I myself have not mastered backing up using only the mirrors, but can do a half decent postioning just looking over my shoulder. I m sure that there are several " smarties" out there snickering at this moment for not using my mirrors, but " Oh well" , I can at least put the popup where I want it to go! [:D]
Happy Camping Everyone!
Sue
YellowXterraI use mirrors, over the shoulder, out the window and anything else that will give me a good view of what or who I m backing near! I ve backed everything from Dozers to tractor-trailers and am perfectly capable of backing using only the mirrors, but I don t! Far too many people have been run over by people who have an aversion to turning their heads!
I do agree that there are an awful lot of people out there who have done zilch for backing practice! You know what s even scarier? How many of those people driving those 40 motorized RV s have taken a single leson in handling it?
YellowXterraOK, OK, I m going to Proud Lake Recreation Area here in Wixom, Michigan. We will be there this wednesday. Grab your six pack and a few lawn chairs. This will be my first attempt backing into a treed site. And don t forget the video camera. You may win $10,000.[:D]
YellowXterraI drive a tow truck for a living, and back them up all day long. However, the new Hybrid is a different story. Can t see a darn thing around it when backing! I m going to rig up an old security camera I have as a make shift back-up camera.
As far as doing it with mirrors, I m a professional at backing, and still look over my shoudler as well as use the mirrors, so don t feel bad at all, backing is almost as much art as it is a skill...
YellowXterraGoing with Cliff on this one. I ve done a lot of trator trailer driving and could put a 40 footer into a dock with 6 inches on either side. Backing up a 8 foot PU had me pulling my hair out.
In our extended camping family there s about 6 truck drivers, towing everythng from 8 foot PU s to a converted 45 foot moving van (ultamate 5th wheel [:D]) and all of us have problems except the moving van owner.
In fact a couple of the guys put their wives behind the wheel while they do the " mombac" thing. You know the one that stands behind the trailer yelling " mombac, plenty of room" .[:)]
YellowXterraHmmmm.....this may the reason I m still camping with a tent! [:D] Randy, don t laugh at me next year, ok?
YellowXterraYellowXterra,
I agree with you. I have learned that the first thing you need to do when backing up is TAKE YOUR TIME and MOVE SLOWLY. I am no pro by a long shot and still turn the wheel the wrong way when I first start backing up. As I back up slowly, I can adjust as I go provided I take all the room I need.
Next week is my trial of backing up. As I begin my three week trip in central New York. At this one camp that I have to back down to, there is a 30 degree slop. I find by taking my time works, and making sure all is where I think it is... Even with a AWD/Four wheel drive it is not only a challenge to back it down into place but pulling it out on a wet grassy foundation.
Bottom Line: Take your Time![:)]
YellowXterraI think that impatient drivers waiting for those of us " taking our time backing into a camping space" should " mellow out" to say the least.They are much worse than someone having difficulty getting into a space.
forestwalkerforestwalker,
I would say, don,t worry about them.
YellowXterraWhile I do believe there is some art in backing, I m one to say there s a lot more science than even pro s (and perhaps myself) realize. What makes it a science is that it has proveable rules. The rules are a couple magnitudes more complicated than normal steering, where you turn the wheel to turn (and turn it more to turn more). Some of those rules (both serious and humorous):
1) Audience Rule. Backing is always more difficult with an audience. The bigger the audience, the harder it gets. See [link=http://www.popuptimes.com/members/tm.asp?m=28351&p=5&tmode=1]Backing Up the PUP...LOL[/link] for more details.
2) The Crunch of Failure Rule. Sometimes, you just gotta keep trying, abandoning adequate positions in order to try to get a better position, until you get the Crunch of Failure. For more on this, see [link=http://mikeday.rexnet.net/kf9ug/outdoors/index.shtml]Michael & Sandy s Outdoor & Travel Page[/link]. You will have to scroll way down to find it, but it s there.
3) Yelling Rule. Yelling makes it easier to back. When it starts going badly, start yelling louder. If you are doing it right, rule #1 will kick in soon.
Now to the more serious rules (but no more true than the first three):
4) Trailer Length Rule: The longer the trailer, the easier it is to back. This is one of two reasons professional tractor trailer drivers turn red, go bald and start cursing when they can t seem to back a pop-up. It really is harder to back a short trailer than a longer one.
5) TV Turning Radius Rule: The longer the tow vehicle s turning radius, the harder it is to back the trailer. This means the nice long Suburban, which makes a great tow vehicle, makes a lousy backing vehicle. It s also the other reason professional tractor trailer drivers turn red, go bald and start cursing when they can t seem to back a pop-up. What s important isn t the absolute turning radius, but the ratio of tow vehicle to trailer turning radius. With a tractor-trailer, the tow vehicle turning radius is a small fraction of the trailer s turning radius, but with a pop-up, the trailer s turning radius may be a small fraction of the tow vehicle s turning radius. This makes it much more difficult.
6) The Steering Rules:
6a) The Tow Vehicle Steers Rule. Most drivers are used to the front wheels turning their tow vehicle, whether going forward or backwards. But with a trailer, the tow vehicle turns the trailer. Not the tow vehicle s front wheels, but the tow vehicle itself. If the trailer and tow vehicle are at an angle, it won t matter how much you turn the steering wheel, the trailer is going to continue to turn in the same direction until the tow vehicle itself swings around so that the angle between the TV and trailer changes direction. This leads to rules 6b and 6c:
6b) The Jackknife Rule. If the tow vehicle and trailer get into a tight enough angle, no amount of tow vehicle turning will correct for it, and continuing to back will lead to a special version of the Crunch of Failure. The exact point depends on rules 4 & 5 and on the configuration of the trailer tongue. For all practical purposes, the turning radius of the trailer is variable and self-exaggerating. Once the trailer/TV are at an angle, the angle will get tighter and tighter unless controlled by the tow vehicle.
6c) The Distance-Delay Rule. One of the effects of rules 6a & 6b is that it takes time (really, it takes distance) for the trailer to respond to changes in tow vehicle steering. The amount of distance depends on the existing angle between the tow vehicle and trailer, and on the turning radii (rules 4 & 5) of the TV and trailer. People who are really good at backing have learned to anticipate the need to turn and start their turns before they appear to be necessary. And if delayed too long, there is no correcting, because rule 6b takes over.
6d) Counter-steer Rule. Perhaps the most confusing thing for most people is the fact that the steering wheel is turned in the opposite direction from what is intuitive. Starting from a straight line, turning the tow vehicle wheels to the right will turn the trailer to the left, and vice versa. Turning the tow vehicle front wheels to the right (when backing) actually moves the front of the tow vehicle to the left. (The net result is to point the back of the tow vehicle to the right, the direction you would normally want to go.) But when backing a trailer, moving the front of the tow vehicle to the left steers the trailer left, so the net result is that steering left moves the trailer right. The easiest way to get this down is to steer with the bottom of the steering wheel, moving the bottom of the wheel left to move the trailer left, and moving it to the right to move the trailer right.
7) Small Changes Rule. One of the artifacts of rules 6a, 6b, and 6c is that making frequent small changes to the steering wheel are more effective than trying to make a bigger change later on. Stay on top of the trailer, and correct immediately (or sooner, see rule 6d).
8) Take It Slow Rule. A general artifact of all of these rules, especially the Crunch of Failure rule, is that you need to not be in a hurry when backing in. Taking a few extra minutes to take it slow will get you parked sooner than rushing and having to try again (and again and again).
9) Practice Rule. There is no substitute for practice, practice, and more practice. Even when you have it down pat, you will find yourself pulling out your hair with a different TV/Trailer combination. The behavior of each combination is a little different (sometimes a lot different), along with different visibility, clearances, etc. This is where the art comes in. You don t need to be an expert on backing to look like one. You just need to be practiced on backing your trailer with your tow vehicle. You can get there by practicing.
10) The Do It Rule. If you don?t understand some (or all) of these rules, don?t fret. Just get out there and do it, working techniques will come to you with practice.
11) The hand-backing rule. Fortunately, the smallest, most difficult to back trailers are sometimes small enough to be backed by hand. Don t see it as a failure, see it as your technique for backing. Just be careful with slopes and things that can catch the tongue wheel.
My father was the best trailer backers I ever saw. I don t know where he learned to back like he did. It might have been growing up on a farm (where he was driving tractor by age 10), or in the service, where he was a mechanic (and a bomb disposal expert). But we had a homemade utility trailer that I saw him back with a number of different cars from a 1973 AMC Gremlin to a big old station wagon, and I never once saw him have to pull forward and try again. We had a dirt driveway back then, and one time I noticed how the tire tracks where he had backed that trailer were perfectly straight.
I wish I could do that.
Austin
Posted in memory of Dad, 1928-1983.
YellowXterraBesides the free entertainment, how was Disney? We ll be at Ft Wilderness in August! (don t worry, Dh never bellows directions - he knows I just ignore him when he does [;)])
YellowXterra
QuoteIt might have been growing up on a farm (where he was driving tractor by age 10),
The first thing I learned to back was a farm wagon with a tractor. I was about the same age as your dad. The farm wagon was a bit like a giant " Radio Flyer" . It had a pivot between the front wheels and another where it attached to the tractor draw bar. Although completly backwards from backing a conventional trailer, it did make it easier to back " normal trailers" .
AustinBoston
Quote5) TV Turning Radius Rule: The longer the tow vehicle s turning radius, the harder it is to back the trailer. This means the nice long Suburban, which makes a great tow vehicle, makes a lousy backing vehicle.
Now I get it! We had an 8-foot PU towed with our minivan, and never had a problem backing in. The first trip out with the Suburban and the 12-foot PU DH pulled in effortlessly (we have SCCamper witnesses to prove it!), but they were wide sites with easy access. This last trip, he couldn t get the trailer over to the desired side no matter how hard he tried. It didn t help that we had a hillside directly in front of the site, so he was having to back in at a 45-degree angle. I put 2-way radios in the Suburban so we d have them for backing in since now with the bigger TV and the AC on the trailer, my DH can t see my wild gesturing back there, so of course one of them had a dead battery![:@] That didn t help the frustration factor. We finally got it in at an angle and pushed it over where we needed it! Can t do that with a 5th wheel!
YellowXterraWhen I started reading this I was wondering when AustinB was going to chime in...ROTFLOL...I love his version of " Audience Rule" [:D]. It s usually about half the entertainment for us while camping.[:D] Then, again, turn-about is fair play. DH isn t too much better --but hasn t hit anything. As for me, I need A LOT more practice. Backing up the PU is hard enough. Yet, for me the challenge is compounded with me being short (5 ) & managing the manual transmission of the TV while watching the PU go in every direction but the one I had intended.
Thanks for the pointers. They should really help out this season.
Peace be with you all.
YellowXterraI ve got to say that I never towed anything before owning a popup. Our first trip was to a favorite state park where we always tent camped (felt more at home there & didn t know about " hookups" yet). I did a great job of having other tenters lined up to help me get it into the campsite & later they joined us for some cokes and laughs.
We all start out not so good and progress as we go along. Sure, you can spend countless hours becoming the perfect trailer parker but who cares? I enjoy seeing newbies trying to get their rigs into a campsite for the first time and don t mind helping (but only if the sun is starting to set)! [;)][:D]
YellowXterra
QuoteI drove over 1500 miles last week and seen lots of pop ups on the road but never did see a PUT s sticker any where. Were you all hiding
I m always on the look-out for bumper stickers and only see them at rallies. It makes me nutz because we ve gone through 1000 s.
Dave
YellowXterraOK, I fess up, I have 2 additional ones.
I m planning on putting one on a magnet to attach to the " NEW" PU, and the other, I plan on putting on plexi-glass and attaching to our sign we put in front of the site.
popuptimesPopup Times,
You might want to look at this.
http://www.popuptimes.com/members/tm.asp?m=34368&p=1&mpage=1&tmode=1
YellowXterraCliff, the Bantam is a lot easier to back than the popup, for me. Could not get the popup in the drive before Easter (the Bantan was in the way to pull through and the traffic was bad on the streets) the truck driver neighbor was one of the gawkers and I asked himif he would. I watched and learned. I was over steering, seems to be a common mistake. Now I can back it up in the drive with a little help from Jeffrey, Raymond confuses me.
YellowXterraMy husband drives all the way to the campsite and then we trade places. For some reason I have become very proficient in backing up the trailer and usually without too much fuss can get it into the place we want it. I will say that our Utah is much easier to back up than the Taos that we had. Our maiden voyage was to Ocean Lakes in Myrtle Beach which had pull thru sites which made it much easier for us. This year we are camping at Pirate Land and have no worries about the backing up, since I have practiced several times since getting the Utah. Once you feel confident about it - it s a piece of cake. My sons think it s funny that dad drives all the way but mom s job is the most important!
YellowXterrawell this is how we backin...i stand dead center of where we want the center of the trailer to be...that way dh can jugde centering but when he gets within about two feet of where i want him to stop, i use my hands up in the air so he can see and do the how much space you have left hand movements...and always on the look out to see if i am gonna get run over...
Jo Ann
QuoteORIGINAL: Jo Ann
well this is how we backin...i stand dead center of where we want the center of the trailer to be...that way dh can jugde centering but when he gets within about two feet of where i want him to stop, i use my hands up in the air so he can see and do the how much space you have left hand movements...and always on the look out to see if i am gonna get run over...
I do the same thing - I stand dead center and use my hands, but it is never right for DH. I always am doing something wrong[&:]
mumofsonsEverybody does it different. I have my DW stand at the corner, where I want the popup to stop. Drivers side, back corner. Then I back the camper in to that reference, stopping right at her feet. She doesn t need to move, or wave, unless I m about to run over something, or somebody. Haven t done that yet.[;)]
YellowXterraI have never had any difficulty backing up the camper. As one of those " farm girls," I learned very early how to back up trailers of corn or hay with tractors. I drove big trucks and small trucks and learned to back them to wherever I wanted. So, my advice is to just lighten up and relax a bit before starting to back the popup. Don t be intimidated by a little ole popup, even when you have a gallery audience lined up in lawn & camp chairs with cold ones in hand at the campground.[;)] A little practice in a big parking lot of in your yard will have you parking like a pro in no time. For those that never learn, just get a pull through site.[;)]
B-flat
QuoteORIGINAL: B-flat
I have never had any difficulty backing up the camper. As one of those " farm girls," I learned very early how to back up trailers of corn or hay with tractors.
Ya, But the popup is easier, it doesn t have the extra set of steering wheels in front. [;)]
Farm kid here too, I learned to back up a four wheel wagon, and can actually say I got pretty good at it.[:)]
B-flat
QuoteORIGINAL: B-flat
I have never had any difficulty backing up the camper. As one of those " farm girls," I learned very early how to back up trailers of corn or hay with tractors. I drove big trucks and small trucks and learned to back them to wherever I wanted. So, my advice is to just lighten up and relax a bit before starting to back the popup. Don t be intimidated by a little ole popup, even when you have a gallery audience lined up in lawn & camp chairs with cold ones in hand at the campground.[;)] A little practice in a big parking lot of in your yard will have you parking like a pro in no time. For those that never learn, just get a pull through site.[;)]
DH won t let me try to back in or drive with it, seems kinda funny as when we moved into our house 19 years ago from our apartment, we used my brothers 6 horse horse trailer to move everything in. Couldn t pass up the cheap way to move as it only cost us several 12pks for DH s friends and I drove the truck with the trailer to move[;)]
mumofsonsWe are of the school of being the " entertainers" rather than the " entertainee" when it comes to backing up. If I couldn t argue with DH about backing up camping would not be any fun!!!!(LOL)[:D][:D]
Actually we wonder how there can be any trees still left at Ft Wilderness cause when we were there at spring break we saw someone dancing with a tree as they backed up with their trailer. In fact, as we have said before on another thread, if it were not for a kindly and slightly, (allright...greatly) [:D] [:D][:D] bemused trucker, we would still be there trying to park.
I would like us to become better at backing.....but we are not going to stop camping until we get better!!! [;)] We also LUV AustinBoston s words of wisdom...(its kind of like the preverbial fish tail...((but this one is helpful)) and it gets better with each telling!!!!)[:)][:)][:)]
So...If you see the sticker...and are anywhere close to what can be called " behind" us...you better run....or grab a beer and a chair ...preferably toward the front of our TV.!!!! (LOL)[:D][:D]
mumofsonsWhen I bought the new Jayco I was extremely nervous but PopupGizmo sent me an article that he had written with regards how to back a trailer up. It was the clock theory, this theory has helped me extremely well w/ backing the trailer up. But I can t back a trailer up worth a darn using the mirrors only over my shoulder looking at the camper[:D]
mumofsonsPopupSgt...that s EXACTLY how DH does it. The first day we picked up the PU we took it to a big parking lot so we could practice. Kept reviewing everything we d been told...use the mirrors only...hand at the bottom of the wheel...turn the steering wheel the direction you want the trailer to go...blah, blah, blah...DH had a heck of a time...he backed it in, but it took forever, and it was never quite straight or exactly where he wanted it to be. He kept trying and kept trying. Finally he said. I m pulling around and I m going to try something different....I wasn t paying any attention to what he was doing but darn if he didn t back the PU right into the spot exactly where he wanted it. He got out, changed the angle of the markers we were using for " trees" and tried again, and once again, backed right into the spot. Then he drives around a different direction so he can try backing into the spot on the blind side of the truck...still...right into the spot he goes... He said he finally gave up on everything he d been told, turned around and watched out the back window to see where the trailer was going, and could do it every time.
I tried...both ways..any way.......dang it...I can t do it! I only get totally frustrated. LOL...I drive a smaller car though and don t even like to back his truck up with nothing on it! ;> But..hey, he can do it with no problem..as long as he does it his own way.