My normal TV is a 1997 Ford F150 excab. Class III hitch...tranny cooler and works. I have never had an issue pulling my 2500# Coleman SantaFe. This summer we are taking a trip to NC (ME, DW, 1stDD 3yo, 2ndDD 10mo). We are also taking my Sister and her DD. This is too much for the cab of the truck for a long trip. My wife s car is a 2000 Ford Windstar. According to my dealer, the hand book, and the Ford website the Windstar has a towrating of 3500#. If I add a class II hitch, a tranny cooler and heavyduty shocks to the windstar, why should I not be able to tow the pop-up? I know I will have a 1000# pound limit on what I can bring. Does this include the weight in the pop-up and in the van...passengers included? We will have about 550# in pasenger weight (yes I am going on a diet). Can I make this work?
CampinSteve
QuoteORIGINAL: CampinSteve
My normal TV is a 1997 Ford F150 excab. Class III hitch...tranny cooler and works. I have never had an issue pulling my 2500# Coleman SantaFe.
Is this an actual weight or just the rating? It s easy to overload some trailers, including most Coleman trailers.
QuoteThis summer we are taking a trip to NC.
Fla to NC could be all flat, or it could include significant hills. It makes a difference. Is this to coastal NC, or the Smokys, or something else?
Quote(ME, DW, 1stDD 3yo, 2ndDD 10mo) We are also taking my Sister and her DD. This is too much for the cab of the truck for a long trip.
I count six people? Yup, that s a tight fit.[&:]
QuoteMy wife s car is a 2000 Ford Windstar. According to my dealer, the hand book, and the Ford website the Windstar has a towrating of 3500#. If I add a class II hitch, a tranny cooler and heavyduty shocks to the windstar, why should I not be able to tow the pop-up? I know I will have a 1000# pound limit on what I can bring. Does this include the weight in the pop-up and in the van...passengers included? We will have about 550# in pasenger weight (yes I am going on a diet). Can I make this work?
I am assuming you have electric brakes on the Santa Fe, and will move the controller to the Windstar. If not, then everything I say below is void. Yes, I think this can work, but you would have to pack light. The weight of all passengers (except 150 lb for driver) has to be subtracted from the 1000 lbs, so you really only have 450 lbs. to pack with. 450 lbs. should be possible.
Most people pack twice as much as they need. Buy food when you get there, rather than hauling it with you. Leave behind any gear you haven t used in the last 3-4 trips. Leave behind anything you don t expect to use on this trip.
Put the Santa Fe on a scale and get the actual weight. If it s under the 2500 lbs, you have a little more more room to work with.
Keep the speed down.
The Winstar will not have the performace of the 150, but this combination should be safe and workable.
Austin
CampinSteve
QuoteORIGINAL: CampinSteve
My normal TV is a 1997 Ford F150 excab. Class III hitch...tranny cooler and works. I have never had an issue pulling my 2500# Coleman SantaFe. This summer we are taking a trip to NC (ME, DW, 1stDD 3yo, 2ndDD 10mo). We are also taking my Sister and her DD. This is too much for the cab of the truck for a long trip. My wife s car is a 2000 Ford Windstar. According to my dealer, the hand book, and the Ford website the Windstar has a towrating of 3500#. If I add a class II hitch, a tranny cooler and heavyduty shocks to the windstar, why should I not be able to tow the pop-up? I know I will have a 1000# pound limit on what I can bring. Does this include the weight in the pop-up and in the van...passengers included? We will have about 550# in pasenger weight (yes I am going on a diet). Can I make this work?
I agree with Austin. I think it s workable too. The rear shocks (or air bags) will be necessary. A WD hitch might also work for around the same cost. My minivan has load leveling suspension, but I would feel much more comfortable with a WD system too after loading six people inside.
Assumingyou have the 3.8 V6 I think the performance will be about the same as it would be with the F-150. The 1997 F-150 with 4.6 V8 produced more power than the Windstar (220hp 265 torque, vs 200 hp 240 torque) but has a lot more weight to overcome as well.
I think you will be okay. As Austin says, weigh the trailer and accurately estimate the weight of everything else. If you re going up hills, a transmission cooler won t help your engine, so keep an eye on the temperature gauge. If it starts to rise while climbing, first turn off the AC and see if it stabilizes. If not, turn on the heater. That usually does the trick. If your engine starts running hot, you ll know not to try towing with this load again! [;)][8D] Do a " test tow" with as much weight as you think you ll be bringing. Since there ain t no hills in Florida, do a lot of stop and go driving to simulate strenuous conditions. Or keep doing U-turns at the bottom of freeway overpasses [;)][;)].
SactoCampers
QuoteORIGINAL: SactoCampers
I agree with Austin. I think it s workable too. The rear shocks (or air bags) will be necessary. A WD hitch might also work for around the same cost. My minivan has load leveling suspension, but I would feel much more comfortable with a WD system too after loading six people inside.
[Nit-pick mode=On]CampinSteve is talking a class II hitch. If using a WDH, it really needs to be a Class III or better.[/Nit-pick mode]
Austin
AustinBoston
Quote[Nit-pick mode=On]CampinSteve is talking a class II hitch. If using a WDH, it really needs to be a Class III or better.[/Nit-pick mode]
Yep, definite nit-pick, but a good point. Steve, why not go with a Class III instead? It leaves you more options (WD, bike racks, etc.) and is about the same cost.
CampinSteveThanks Austin....somehow I knew I could count on you.
My SantaFe does not have brakes on it. (Coleman didn t start making brakes standard on all models until 2001) When I first got the popup I put everything in it I thought I would possibly ever need, then weighed it....it tipped the scales at about 3200. I have since started packing less and less because of lack of use. Something tells me that the empty weight of my pop-up is less than 2500#.
When my Windstar says it has a tow rating of 3500...that includes Pop-up, all cargo and passengers in the van minus 150# for the driver?
I think I can do this...does it matter if my Pop-up doesn?t have brakes?
Adding the extra shocks and tranny cooler...will that raise my towing capability of my van?
SactoCampers
QuoteORIGINAL: SactoCampers
Quote[Nit-pick mode=On]CampinSteve is talking a class II hitch. If using a WDH, it really needs to be a Class III or better.[/Nit-pick mode]
Yep, definite nit-pick, but a good point. Steve, why not go with a Class III instead? It leaves you more options (WD, bike racks, etc.) and is about the same cost.
I had thought about a classIII hitch...but a class II hitch has a rating of 3500# which is the limit of my Van...and I thought a class III hitch with a rating of 5000# was a bit of overkill....but I have gone for overkill before...[;)]
I am not sure about the tranny cooler now....but could put the $$ in a classIII hitch, plus I could use the ball and big square thingy from the F-150 hitch saving me about $35
CampinSteve
QuoteWhen my Windstar says it has a tow rating of 3500...that includes Pop-up, all cargo and passengers in the van minus 150# for the driver?
No, but I m not sure I entirely understand your assumptions. The tow rating only includes the driver. Put another way (which may be the same as what you were saying), subtract all other passengers and weight from the tow capacity. e.g. 3500 - 550 for passengers - 500 for gear and camping equipment (just a wild guess) = 2500 lbs.
QuoteI think I can do this...does it matter if my Pop-up doesn?t have brakes?
Yes. The advice given by Austin and myself assumes brakes. I highly recommend against what you re doing without the popup brakes. The brakes on your Windstar are only designed to stop iteself plus it s rated cargo carrying capacity (around 1200 lbs), **not** a fully loaded van plus 2500 lb popup. You re asking for trouble with this load sans brakes. It will be white knuckle the whole time...and dangerous.
QuoteAdding the extra shocks and tranny cooler...will that raise my towing capability of my van?
Not beyond 3500 lbs. What you probably have right now is a 2000 lb capacity. I believe the 2000 Windstar tow package only included a wiring harness and full-size spare, but you ll have to check the dealer to confirm. Rear air bags (or shocks) and a tranny cooler will improve transmission cooling and rear suspension sag; two important variables in the towing equation. I have a 2300 lb popup and minivan with heavy duty brakes (came with the tow package), but it s just me, DW and 17mo DD. I wouldn t consider towing the popup without brakes even with my minivan with upgraded brakes. My wife has a 2002 Windstar LX, and it s brakes are worse than my Town & Country.
Quotehad thought about a classIII hitch...but a class II hitch has a rating of 3500# which is the limit of my Van...and I thought a class III hitch with a rating of 5000# was a bit of overkill....but I have gone for overkill before...
It has a higher rating, but you won t be towing more weight due to the limited tow capacity of your Windstar. It doesn t cost you more and gives you more options. I have a Class III on my Town & Country, but only have a 3500 lb tow capacity.
QuoteI am not sure about the tranny cooler now....but could put the $$ in a classIII hitch, plus I could use the ball and big square thingy from the F-150 hitch saving me about $35
You need the transmission cooler with this load. It s also a good general investment in your Windstar. Cost is no more than $150 installed.
So here are my recommendations to safely set up your minivan to handle this load (in order of importance):
1.) Brakes installed on the popup, with brake controller and wiring on the Windstar (~$500 installed?)
2.) WD hitch (~$350 installed?)
2.) Transmission cooler (~$150 installed)
3.) In place of WD hitch, air bags first option, then shocks second option ($350 installed?)
4.) Class III hitch over Class II (~$150 installed?)
All of these are pretty important, but it s expensive to do it. You could be looking at over $1000 to set up your Windstar for this. It may be more cost effective to take two cars. Brakes on the popup are the most important item there because you re talking about a safety issue. The others are not as directly related to safety. Without brakes on the popup, I strongly recommend against towing with the Windstar.
CampinSteveugggh.....I was all set to do this...but now I am having 2nd thoughts. I looked back at the pop-up website and 2500 is the GVRW I am assuming that this mean the total for the loaded popup. The " dry" weight of the popup is under 1800# this gives me 600# to load in the pop-up...and I wont come close to that. So the rating for the Windstar is 3500...the loaded pop up is less than 2500...the passengers and " stuff" should put me at 3000# (loaded pop-up, loaded van) Under the 3500 limit. I just got off the phone with the service department at Ford and was told that the breaks on the Windstar (as long as they are in good working order?no worn pads) should have no problem stopping the van and pop-up as long as I am not driving like NASCAR and give my self extra room. I understand the safety issue. I am looking at good case ? best case ? worse case scenario.
So...I guess the big issue is the brakes. I haven?t had a problem when towing with the F-150 (and I have a 6 cyl). With the girls getting older/bigger the Van would be a better TV. So, maybe the $1000 is $$ well spent unless I can convince the DW to spend $30,000 on a new Super Crew.
CampinSteveSteve a few more notes for you. I have to agree with Sac & Austin on the braking issue. It s an awful lot to be asking of the Windstar brakes to stop over extra ton & a half. The first time you have to stop short you ll wish you had the trailer brakes or at least full collision on the Windstar & PU.
The difference between a class II and class III hitch usually runs about $20-$30 and if you luck is like mine your drawbar from the Pickup won t be anywhere near the drop/raise you ll need for the Windstar so add back about $35.
Also I can get behind Sacto s idea of the two vehicles for a couple of reasons. 1) the Pickup is already set up for towing no added expense except gas for the second vehicle. 2) Gives people a " change of scenery" moving from one vehicle to the other. Especially if the kids get fighting. That can make for an extra loooong trip. 3) If something does happen, you ve always got a vehicle.
CampinSteve
Quoteugggh.....I was all set to do this...but now I am having 2nd thoughts. I looked back at the pop-up website and 2500 is the GVRW I am assuming that this mean the total for the loaded popup. The " dry" weight of the popup is under 1800# this gives me 600# to load in the pop-up...and I wont come close to that.
Don t forget to add the options to the dry weight of the trailer. For reference, my popup had a 1700 lb " dry" weight. Options (furnace, water heater, awning, battery, water pump, fridge, no AC) raised it to 2000 lbs. Another battery, second tank and other everyday permanent belongings (no bikes, canoes, or anything)added another 300 lbs to equal 2300. So you re probably right in that you ll be under, but close to, 2500 lbs.
QuoteI just got off the phone with the service department at Ford and was told that the breaks on the Windstar (as long as they are in good working order?no worn pads) should have no problem stopping the van and pop-up as long as I am not driving like NASCAR and give my self extra room.
With all due respect to the service department, they likely haven t towed a 2300-2400 lb trailer without brakes. In theory, they re right, but you have no margin for unexpected situations. You can t always give extra room when a car pulls out in front of you from a cross street. Something to think about. I have to give extra room even *with* trailer brakes.
FWIW, my popup didn t originally come with brakes. I towed with a 96 Dodge Intrepid ES, with 3.5 liter V6 and upgraded brakes. I test towed the combination without brakes and could barely stop at the end of the freeway off-ramp and I could smell my brakes. I told the dealer I m not buying the trailer without brakes so he installed them.
QuoteI understand the safety issue. I am looking at good case ? best case ? worse case scenario.
I know. You re trying to do the right thing. We re trying to help you based on our experience.
QuoteSo...I guess the big issue is the brakes. I haven?t had a problem when towing with the F-150 (and I have a 6 cyl). With the girls getting older/bigger the Van would be a better TV. So, maybe the $1000 is $$ well spent unless I can convince the DW to spend $30,000 on a new Super Crew.
I think it s a good investment and believe me, I" m sensitive to the fact that $1000 is not chump change. It will buy you 2-3 years or more(and much more peace of mind) until you can buy that dream truck, if you want. You re fine with the Windstar and just your immediate family, but adding two more people and their belongings does make a significant difference. If you want to think longer term than that, you might want to consider the new truck sooner rather than later. [:)] If you consider buying a late model used crew cab you re looking at ~$20k instead of $30k. [;)][:)]. I was playing around yesterday on the internet and noticed with rebates a fairly well equipped new 2WD Dodge Durango with V8 runs <$22k at invoice. A Dodge Dakota Quad Cab with V8, even less than that. Guess they re not selling too well [&:][;)]. I show a 2003 F-150 super crew with 4.6 V8 and trailer towing package invoices around $23k with rebates.
CampinSteveOk....so unless I can talk the DW in the the new SuperCrew I will tell my sister that she is welcom to come along.....but she will need to drive.
I might just maby get by on the trip without the brakes on the Pop-up, but I dont think I will take the chance when I have 6 lives in my hands...8 if you count the opup and my van.
I will start putting away $$ to have brakes put on the Pop-up so I will have the Van option in the future.
Thanks for all the help[:)]
CampinSteveWe tow a 02 Santa Fe with a minivan (3500lb) tow rating without any problems.
The only thing that would concern me about your set up is the lack of trailer brakes. " IF" it s going to be a one time thing I " might" consider it, but really wouldn t feel comfortable towing ours without them. I do think our Santa Fe is a little heavier t hen your s. It has a dry weight (per Coleman) of 1900lbs plus we have the A/C. The dealership we went to includes the cost of the brake controller in the cost of the PU. They said they wouldn t sell it to us without.
If you re planning on using the van more often I d definalty get the brakes. Check you re manual. Our van s says any trailers over 1000lbs require their own brakes. We also have a sway bar which makes us feel more comfortable. We did tow our old PU without them (1200lb dry weight) and we re ok. But we also don t carry alot of gear with us as we usually are only out for a weekend.
CampinSteveEven if you don t NEED the brakes (and IMHO, you do), adding the brakes will reduce the wear on the TV brakes (even using the F150), so they almost (not quite) pay for themselves in reduced routine maintenance on the Tow Vehicle.
It may make the trailer more sellable in the future.
Austin
CampinSteveUPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE
I just got off the phone with my Coleman Dealer...They have my Pop-up now for routine maintenance. I told him of my dilemma. He said he had all the parts for the brakes and would charge me $100 to install it on my Pop-up. (it was ordered and installed on a Pop-up, but then removed without being used...he assures me it is a complete working pkg..he just cant send it back to Fleetwood) I told him to DO IT!!! Before he changed his mind. (This was the 2nd pop-up we bought from him and I guess he likes repeat customers.) I am taking the Van down tomorrow to have a WD class III hitch installed and a brake controller it shouldn?t cost me more than $300 (so says the hitch guy). So for under $500 I will be safe and able to take the Van. Good things do happen to not so good people some times?[:D][:D][:D][:D] What a day...now if Only I got any work done today....shhhh[:o]
CampinSteve
QuoteORIGINAL: CampinSteve
UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE
I just got off the phone with my Coleman Dealer...They have my Pop-up now for routine maintenance. I told him of my dilemma. He said he had all the parts for the brakes and would charge me $100 to install it on my Pop-up. (it was ordered and installed on a Pop-up, but then removed without being used...he assures me it is a complete working pkg..he just cant send it back to Fleetwood) I told him to DO IT!!! Before he changed his mind. (This was the 2nd pop-up we bought from him and I guess he likes repeat customers.) I am taking the Van down tomorrow to have a WD class III hitch installed and a brake controller it shouldn?t cost me more than $300 (so says the hitch guy). So for under $500 I will be safe and able to take the Van. Good things do happen to not so good people some times?[:D][:D][:D][:D] What a day...now if Only I got any work done today....shhhh[:o]
WOW! That s GREAT! Good things sometimes happen to people who care.
Now, just so we re clear, it sounds as though the Class III hitch is WD-compatible, but does not itself include the weight distribution system(?).
Your suspension option is to either get the weight distribution system (i.e. reese mini 350...includes anti-sway and WD all in one), or air bags/air shocks. Your rear suspension will be sagging really bad with that load. Not trying to rain on the parade, but merely forwarning you. The hitch guy or your dealer probably has a reese mini 350 in stock. Ask him about it. This is what it looks like:
http://www.reese-hitches.com/weightdist_lite.htm
You re fortunate in that Coleman popups are rated for WD systems. My popup is not [:(].
CampinSteveIt isn t Reese...I think it is Draw-Tite. It was less than the Reese. It is the hitch that mounts under the van, and all the parts that atach to the Pop-up frame.
I am still thinking about the heavy duty shocks, but not the airbags.
CampinSteve
QuoteORIGINAL: CampinSteve
It isn t Reece...I think it is Draw-Tite. It was less than the reece. It is the hitch that mounts under the van, and all the parts that atach to the Pop-up frame.
That s good. Does it come with an anti-sway bar too? The reason I ask is that while the draw-tite will distribute the weight, it may make the tongue too light to the extent the trailer may begin to sway. That s why I suggested the Reese 350 because it has WD and anti-sway.. Test tow with the draw-tite to see if that s an issue. If so, you can add a sway bar for <$100.
Looks like you re in good shape! [:)][:)][:D].
CampinSteveIt has a sway controle...not sure how it works. Thanks for all the help....
I am gonna have the DW follow this post tonight......so I can justify all the $$ and work on the van.
Thanks Again.....[:)][:)][:)]
CampinSteve
QuoteIt has a sway controle...not sure how it works. Thanks for all the help....
am gonna have the DW follow this post tonight......so I can justify all the $$ and work on the van.
Thanks Again.....
Excellent!
Now you can go on your trip with a clear conscience knowing your family is as safe as they can possibly be...and you may actually enjoy towing.
Last piece of advice. Make sure your brake controller is inertia based and not time activated. The inertia based will apply the brakes proportional to your rate of deceleration resulting in smooth stops and braking power
when you need it not according to a preset time-delay. Make absolutely sure you don t get a time-based controller. They are most frequently sold under the Draw-Tite and Hayes names. A Tekonsha Envoy should cost the same as a time-based controller (maybe $5-$10 more, but if they re doing it in a package deal, you may be able to sneak a Tekonsha in the deal). I ve used the Voyager and Sentinel with good results. Lots of people insist on the Prodigy but it costs ~$125. The Envoy I think is around $60. Voyager, Sentinel, and Commander are somewhere in between.
Here is a link to help you learn a little about brake controllers:
http://www.brakecontroller.com/
CampinSteveWhile any of the Tekonsha products are fine, the Prodigy IMHO worth the extra money. It need no " leveling" other than being mounted at less than 45 degrees from vetical, has the optional boast control ( helps the trailer brakes come on with the TV brakes to stop the annoying thump from the hitch), and is portable from vehicle to vehicle by simply unplugging and plugging in the new vehicle.
It s a must have for owners with more than one TV.
mike4947I tow with a Nissan Quest rated at 3500. I have a Bayport in the 2000+# range without brakes and never a problem. I also have towed with my F150 4.2 liter. They tow about the same. After towing for awhile I found out that Ford actually changed the rating of my F150 to 2000# towing but it still towed fine. While I found this out, I also found out that auto makers set the tow ratings for warrenty reasons and that once the warrenty is up, the levels can go up as well.
GaryWT
QuoteORIGINAL: GaryWT
While I found this out, I also found out that auto makers set the tow ratings for warrenty reasons and that once the warrenty is up, the levels can go up as well.
Think hard about this for a minute.
If they set it for warranty purposes, doesn t it make sense that they do it because they know the vehicle may break with a higher tow situation? In fact that is the only reason the warranty comes into play with tow ratings.
That doesn t magically change when the warranty expires.
Warranty or not,
you can be held legally liable if an accident occurs and you are over weight,
even if the accident was clearly not your fault.. Some insurance companies train their adjusters to look for this so they can get themselves off the hook.
Austin
mike4947
QuoteORIGINAL: mike4947
While any of the Tekonsha products are fine, the Prodigy IMHO worth the extra money. It need no " leveling" other than being mounted at less than 45 degrees from vetical, has the optional boast control ( helps the trailer brakes come on with the TV brakes to stop the annoying thump from the hitch), and is portable from vehicle to vehicle by simply unplugging and plugging in the new vehicle.
It s a must have for owners with more than one TV.
How did I know one of you guys would make a plug for the Prodigy? [;)][;)][8D]
mike4947Steve, I m just now reading this conversation- glad you listened to Austin and Brian. Just one more point: once you have *everything* set up and loaded in the trailer and van, stop at a truck stop, farm supply (or anywhere that has scales)and get the whole shabang weighed. You can also simulate the passenger weight with more cargo. It s easy to underestimate how much everything weighs, and little things add up in a hurry.
mike4947Howdy. I think you can be Okay doing this.
Since the GVWR of the trailer is 2500 lbs, and the Windstar is rated for 3500 lbs, you are ok. Just make sure to stay whithin the GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating). GCWR is the vehicle weight, cargo weight, and trailer weight.
As for the brakes, I would recommend them. In my opinion, total stopping distance is not the biggest reason for trailer brakes. The real benefit is control.
If you get in a panic stop situation, and you lock the brakes on the TV, your trailer will push you and cause you to jack knife. The trailer brakes prevent that from happening by not allowing the trailer to push you.
Also, if you start swaying, the trailer brakes can help bring things under control.
The trailer brakes will also help to shorten stopping distance.
Get the WD hitch (Reese mini 350). My freind tows his Utah with a Caravan, and without the WD hitch, it would not be pretty sight. This would also keep things under control.
Good luck.