As you all are aware we my be going to war. Do any of you have some thoughts about this? Myself, I hope the country will stay behide our troops and not have this like Vietnam.[:(]
whitestar505This might be a bit more political than PUT would like to see.
Having said that, I have yet to see a justifiable reason to put our troops in harm s way.
Austin
whitestar505I also don t think there s really been any real " smoking gun" on this one yet. All the evidence seems to be circumstantial. It seems to me the more the economy goes down the tubes...the more Bush does his sabre rattling. Is it me...or does all the Worldcom, Enron, etc scandles..and the ties to politicians seem to have gone the wayside? As far as supporting the troops...I think everyone is going to suport them. They aren t the ones calling the shots. They re just following orders, doing their duty.
whitestar505Seems to me that this all started on 11 Sept. Hope we all haven t forgot about that.
Cheers
whitestar505In my mind it s unfinished business. Should have been taken care of in 1991. When our troops are finished in Iraq I m all for inserting them in Libya...earl
whitestar505I don t want to upset anyone , but like Dust64 said it unfinished business if we don t keep this under control That nut over there could make 9-11 look like a picnic if he is not keep under control.If he is able to find a way to deliver his chemical weapons or if he can get his hands on nuciear weapons he has already proved he well use it. and it only a matter of time he will have a delivery system. And when he does do you think he well worn us.[:(] And as for are troops and are alliance God bless you and Thank You.
whitestar505Let s see we ve worrying about Iraq that might be able to produce in several years, nuclear or chemical missles that still wouldn t get here, but everyone forgets about North Korea that HAS nuclear bombs and missles to deliver them to northwestern US.
Seems double U thinks Iraq saved if popa s butt that it ll save him from the economy. If we re lucky he ll be a one termer like his old man and we can get the economy going again.
mike4947I think you hit the nail on the head. North Korea is the one we should be dealing with right now.
whitestar505I agree that Iraq is unfinished business, BUT, Bin Laden is more unfinished and more important than Saddam IMHO. I personally believe this whole thing with IRAQ stems from Daddy Bush s" inability to finish the job. And I don t believe Sonny Bush will get it done either. The focus should still be on Bin Laden with N. Korea following a close 2nd.
whitestar505I agree bikolee if we would have finished this in 91 we would not be doing this now . and we could focus on North Korea. But if we do go to war with Iraq we need to finish it this time. and not stop short. IMHO if we did finish the job the first time would we have had 9-11 at all. and as for North Korea they might not be a problem now. North Korea knows we are focused on Iraq and Bin Laden and can t focus on them 100%. If we could give North Korea 100% they might not even try to flex there muscle. that what happens when you don t finish the job the first time.
whitestar505Greg, Yes I believe 9-11 would have still happened. Mainly because the two, Saddam and Bin Laden, are not really alies. This whole " war" on terrorism is, in reality, a Vietnam in itself. It is an impossible war to win. We have factions/people in our own country that fall under the veil of terrorists.
whitestar505My turn to vent? Soapbox ON
I am amazed at all the " arm chair" generals, military analysts and peaceniks that view the world thru rose colored glasses with blinders on.
Bush #1 did all that was allowed by United Nations resolutions. If he had done more than he did or sent troops one step closer to Baghdad, he would have violated the resolutions and people would have legitimate issues. In my mind, there are no issues or un-resolved tasks that need to be discussed.
It is wonderful conversation provoking fodder that since Bush #2 was in office when 9-11 happened and as a result he is now making up for what his dad could not finish? Huh? Who is making up this junk? And unless I have missed something, we are again working under UN resolutions in this situation. Why make claims that one man has all the rights, rules and authority to wage war without rhyme or reason. It does not happen in our type of democracy.
I do not think that anyone in right mind ever would want to go to war. It is my opinion that those who believe that the ?war talk? is a cover-up for economy reasons, are far out in left field. Economy cycles are many times longer than presidential terms, and people are too quick to assign blame or credit for changes that happen on their favorite/non-favorite president?s watch.
I for one believe that military trained individuals know how to win battles better than those who have not received the special training. That there are indeed intelligence gathering organizations that have more information that I need to know. And while I am grateful for the first amendment, I believe that most news agencies are so biased that we in fact do not receive information that is truthful.
For/against arguments will always follow political lines. Personally, I am tired of the arguments. Our world is different that when WW1 or WW2 or Vietnam or Korea or Gulf Wars took place. Why try to compare the tactics or efforts to resolve each different engagement and make value judgments based upon the differences. Our military and its tactics need to adapt to the individual situations. War tactics change, our responses should change to meet the challenges that we face. Sometimes the response needs to be military actions, and unfortunately we (America) have the might and responsibility to take action.
So, final thoughts?
One ? We should support our troops.
Two ? Second guessing our leaders decisions without having all the facts is pointless.
Three ? Democracy allows us to make changes at pre-determined times.
Four ? Everyone will not be happy with the decisions that will be made.
Five ? Value judgments are very similar to opinions.
Six ? Emotional rhetoric without substance is a waste of time for all involved.
Soapbox OFF
whitestar505I agree. How do you fight a war and win if you don,t know who is the enemy is .or how deep the roots go. Terrorism is fueled by many differant beliefs. from religion, politics, to personal gain. But I just can t help thinking how deep do the roots go between Bin Lalden and Saddam . They have a common goal and hate .
whitestar505Someone said that they hoped that this wouldn t become another Viet Nam, but I think it s already too late for that. It seems like there are too many similiarities already. We have to hold our own in a country that supplies us with a large amount of the fuel we consume, our economy is in the crapper and something has to take our minds off that, defeating Osama Bin Laden hasn t been mentioned in ages and a Republican run Administration is preparing to stab us in the back with cuts and changes to vital programs and double talk. Not to mention that our manly man President has to make sure that we all know how tuff he is by taking up his Daddy s slack. How much worse can it get? Lot s worse, unfortunately, and no one seems to be listening to any voice of reason.
T
whitestar505Dave, Didn t you just join the ranks of all the other " arm chair" generals, etc?
I for one DO NOT wear rose colored glasses or blinders. I cannot think of one political analyst who thinks turning the sights towards Saddam instead of finishing the task that had been started is a smart move. Bush #2 is going to have the same legacy as Bush #1.
A one timer
Economic downfall
Defecit city
Can t finish what he started
But hey. He didn t do much for us here in TX as gov. either.
whitestar505Dayton Dave . I don t criticize Bush 1 or 2 they didn t start this. I criticize the ones who start wars. Bush 1 did all he could. and did a good job doing it. Bush 2 is doing what he has to do. and I have to say . He is doing a good job to. I would not like to be in Bush 2 shoes with all thats hitting him at once. He didn t have Bin Laden do what he did. He didn t cause the economy proplems , he didn t put Saddam in power in Iraq. But he has to deal with it. Who here would like that on there shoulders. I do criticize the ones that would not let Bush 1 finish it in 91. We know then it was not over. as long as Saddam was in power it was not going to end. so I will end know because like the war on Terrorism this argument can t be won.
gnsmith
Quoteso I will end know because like the war on Terrorism this argument can t be won.
Agreed!
whitestar505I understand where you are coimg from. But, for families like mine we would like to see more support behind them. I am not saying we should be there. But, I have a son over there. Who believes that he is there for the good of this country. We must stay focused on what is right. The things that are going on now has to stop. The posioning, the threats, the attacks on us and so on. We are in to far to pull back now. We need to get the job over so our Children, Husbands, wifes, Fathers and Mothers and ECT, came come home to their families.
Mahaffey-Family
U.S. Army son,( this one is in the Gulf)
U.S. Airforce Son
90 Son, 93 Son
whitestar505I was recently in a Hospital waiting room waiting for some blood work to be done and was reading several magazines that were dated last May, 2002. two of the mags ran stories about how Saddly Insane, I mean Saddam Hussein is practicing gassing and Bio-terror on the Kurds in his OWN country. The Kurds felt, and I would have to assume, still do, that the US was the only country that could or would stop him.
As far as North Korea, they need money and food FAR more than they need a nuclear device, however, if they manage to make one who do you think will be the top bidder? I m betting on a country that produces oil!!!
I am of the opinion the the top leaders in our country know far more than the media does and I m willing to put my trust in them and back them in their decision.
You know if we were in Iraq, and having this conversation, we d be dragged from our house and shot for questioning Saddam!
whitestar505Another two-cents worth.
I am retired Navy, a Texan, and about as conservative as you can get, but I must admit I m having some real problems with " W" or " Baby Bush" or " Bush 2" and his " shoot from the hip" mentality and continual spouting off about going into Iraq and kicking some butt as if this were some college football game we re looking at.
About Iraq: Seems " W" has given the people of Iraq the ultimatim of getting rid of Saddam themselves or, by Gawd, we ll come in and do it ourselves (at least, about 200,000 of our young people will, many of whom will be killed in the butt kicking). Well, if getting rid of Saddam is the answer, and it just may be, then why not send in a hit team - yes, an assassin - and blow Saddam away? Why not? Because we don t condone political assassination, at least for the record. So we are going to be politically correct and not just send in someone or hire someone (and, yes, we do have well trained individuals available to do the job); rather, we are going to send our young men and women in and let many of them get their butts blown away. Yeah, I know they knew that would be a possibility when they signed up, but they signed up just the same. I also know that " W" managed to spend his " war years" in the Texas Air National Guard and " Slick Willy" before him just stayed home by the " pot" while the shootin was a-going on. Reminds me of that old " Wild Kingdom" show on TV when Perkins would say, " I m going to stay up here in the treehouse while Jim goes down there with the aligators." Nuff said....
Another thing that bothers me about " W" or Bush2 is this thing that we conservatives as well as everyone else are supposed to swallow hook, line and sinker the idea that giving a tax break to large corporations, etc., will have a " trickle down effect" and be good for our economy. Yea, remember Ennron? Remember all the reports about the millions the CEO s of these mega corporations are pulling down and running away with? Sure, give them a tax break and it will help our economy. And Santa Claus is real. And the next thing you know is these guys will be selling the government all that ocean front property in Arizona and our elected officials will be telling us what a great deal it is.
Folks, makes no difference to me any more what political party is in office, whether it s " Slick Willy" or " W" or a swamp rat of any other name, whether in Washington D.C. or Huntsville, Tx, the general public is gonna get ripped off and our pockets picked and the politicians are gonna walk away richer than ever.
There. I ve had my say and now I m gonna go campin .
whitestar505As for Iraq, I hope that our leaders know more than our press and the UN knows. I really don t care to know the details, just that if they really have the bad stuff as has been said find a wait to get Saddam out and not to be replaced by his kids.
North Korea, well I ve lived in South Korea and I was around the protests in the late 80s. They are a joke, the students " protest" in front of the college and then run back on campus after they ve trashed something since the police can t enter the campus grounds. I m all for pulling out of S. Korea, the population doesn t want our protection so why bother. The country is well enough off now, let them and the Japanese deal with their Nuke neighbor.
I have a lot of mixed feelings, but one thing I know for sure is I have respect for the men and women wearing the uniform and I hope we all show them that respect not matte what happens.
Peace & camping
Y-Guy
I was a young wife during Viet Nam and at first, I was in favor of that war--later I signed every peace petition coming down the pike. I was NEVER against our fighting forces--nor were most people (except Hanoi Jane) What I was protesting was the fat old RICH OLD MEN in Washington who were sending OTHER people s sons out to be used as cannon fodder.
Just watched an interesting series on Teddy Roosevelt on the HIstory channel and everyone knows tha African proverb he loved to quote: " Speak softly and carry a big stick."
Seems current politicians interpret that now as " Speak loudly and send other people s children out to be killed."
Y-GuyJust some words for thought.
Travelin Soldier
(Bruce Robison, Farrah Braniff)
Two days past eighteen
He was waiting for the bus in his army greens
Sat down in a booth, in a cafe there
Gave his order to a girl with a bow in her hair
He s a little shy but she give him a smile
So he said would you mind sittin down for a while
And talking to me
I m feeling a little low
She said I m off in an hour and I know where we can go
So they went down and they sat on the pier
He said I bet you got a boyfriend but I don t care
I got no one to send a letter to
Would you mind if I sent one back here to you
I - I cried
Never gonna hold the hand of another guy
Too young for him they told her
Waitin for the love of the travelin soldier
Our love will never end
Waitin for the soldier to come back again
Never more to be alone when the letter says
My soldier s coming home
Well the letters came from an army camp
In California then Vietnam
He told her of his heart
It might be love and all of the things he was so scared of
He said when it s gettin kinda rough over here
I think of that day sittin down at the pier
And I close my eyes and see your pretty smile
Don t worry but I won t be able to write for a while
I - I cried
Never gonna hold the hand of another guy
Too young for him they told her
Waitin for the love of the travelin soldier
Our love will never end
Waitin for the soldier to come back again
Never more to be alone when the letter says
My soldier s coming home
One Friday night at a football game
The Lord s Prayer said and the anthem sang
A man said folks would you bow your head
For the list of local Vietnam dead
Crying all alone under the stands
Was the piccolo player in the marching band
And one name read and nobody really cared
But a pretty little girl with a bow in her hair
I - I cried
Never gonna hold the hand of another guy
Too young for him they told her
Waitin for the love of the travelin soldier
Our love will never end
Waitin for the soldier to come back again
Never more to be alone when the letter says
My soldier s coming home
whitestar505Pretty interesting stuff IMO.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/ogc/apparatus/index.html
Cheers
Y-GuyIt is a time for the Country to come together as one. The bond we had after 9-11 seemed to fade. We all need to support our Troops and our Nation. However, I agree with Y-Guy we need to pull out of South Korea, they don t want us there. Freedom comes at a price.
As someone said
It s the Soldier not the poet who gives you freedom of speech,
It s the Soldier who salutes the flag, serves the flag, whose coffin is draped with the flag, that allows the protesters to burn the flag,
It s the Soldier not the reporter who gives you the freedom of press,
So please when you pray, pray for all of our Troops. When you see a Soldier hold their hand and say " Thanks for all that you give us and do for us" .
Y-Guydid anyone see 60 minutes tonight and the spot they did on North Korea! Those poor children and families living in such squalor. The kids looked like living dead, the babies, too. Broke my heart...he s starving his own people and yet lives life very comfortably for himself...heard he like American videos, has the internet, etc., yet I watched children squatting in the roads eating bugs for food. It amazes me that this person s own military doesn t take him out, same for Saddam. Can they not see he is only one person...if they all go against him, he s done for. I guess that logic is too easy as they people are trapped in their lives.
I also read an article someone posted on the Trailer Life forum by an Iraqui living here in this country - saying war would be the only way to liberate his people from Saddam s regime. If I can find the link, I ll post it here. Madman cannot be allowed to rule...we must have learned something from Nazi Germany...never again let people suffer because of a madman...there are times when one must help those who cannot help themselves.
Y-Guyfound the article, it is definitely thought provoking...
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/editorial/outlook/1759872
Y-GuyI believe in the " give peace a chance" theory, but terrorism is real. They will hit again without warning. There are many bad guys out there besides Saddam, but he is probably the most dangerous and has been for his entire dictatorship. My DD did a paper on his life and it was unthinkable what he has done to his own people. He is a person to be feared......
Here are some interesting items, food for thought if you may....
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/
whitestar505Personally, I think anytime we go to war, it s a terrible mistake. I know it can t be helped sometimes, but I think in this particular instance, it can be helped.... unfinished business or not.
In 1991 we had a clear objective, to boot Saddam out of Kuwait (saving the oil fields was a nice bonus, and not coincidental either). And while I don t like it at all, I will support our troops just the same (USN Vet here).
And yes, there are other area s we should be looking at instead. If perhaps they know Saddam is harboring Bin Laden, then I might change my veiws on this a little, but...
Gone-CampingWell, has anyone heard the speech given by Mr Powell yesterday? I have changed my mind. Anyone else ?
Y-GuyYes, but, I had already made up my mind before his speech. It is time to get it over with, so our Soldiers can come home. War is terrible, but the longer we wait the more powerful Iraq will get. In my heart I feel they have weapons of mass destruction and they will use them. We just have to keep praying for the safe return of all our Soldiers and support them 100%.
Y-GuyI think one of our country s weaknesses is " surgical strategic bombing" . Nice if you can do it but since Iraq knows what our plan is far in advance, they just move their stuff to other locations. It s war. You didn t see Germany in WWII standing by taking pictures... you saw leveled cities, devastation and grief. Do that again. You want to end it, then end it.