Well, my DH got fired Friday from his job of five and a half years at Costco. No written warning, no verbal warning and a week before Christmas. He was changing tires in the tire shop and another guy he worked with pointed out that tires he was taking off of another guys car would fit DH's car and they were in better shape. He set them aside. DH went into work last Sunday and decided, after no sleep at all, that he would put them on his car. He figured they were just exchanging scrap tires for scrap tires. They still had the same amount of tires for the recycling guy and they weren't missing any inventory. Apparently a manager had noticed them sitting to the side and once they were gone, asked where they were. He then proceded to send someone out to the parking lot and check everyone's tires. They said if whoever did it would come forward, they would be easy on them. DH, being the most honest guy I have ever met, told them figuring he would get written up. He didn't want to get his friend in trouble for setting them to the side though. He was told on Monday that he was suspended for three days and when he went to a meeting Friday, they fired him. What kind of a company would fire someone who has worked there for 5 years without a warning a week before Christmas?? The worst part is the fact that there have been worse things that have been done by employees and they have kept their jobs. For instance, the supervisor before him in the tire shop had given away a brand new set of tires to a relative and he kept his job and ended up getting moved up to manager. I am so frustrated right now!!!
I am so sorry to hear this. What a rotten thing to have happen. :( Is there any chance he could get his job back? I am guessing Costco isn't a union employer.
In a lot of companies, theft and misreporting of hours (really, just a form of theft) are the only things that will get you fired.
I once saw someone with a national company loose his job because he picked up a nail, put it in his pocket, and brought it home. From that point on, I have never taken anything...not even a pencil...from anybody I have ever worked for.
If there is a reasonable "transaction" to be made, it can always be checked with management. But get the answer in writing first.
If your husband has a lawyer contact CostCo, they may decide it's cheaper and easier to take him back if he "pays" for the tires. Barring that, it should be possible to get the termination changed from "with cause" (fired) to "without cause" (laid off). The distinction is important, because a "with cause" termination means NO UNEMPLOYMENT.
Austin
I'm not so sure I agree with the procedure myself. Even if it is all legal, it just doesn't seem right. I'm sorry to hear about this, right at Christmas. I do hope that he finds another job soon. If your husband is a good worker, he will find one soon.
Larry
Sorry to hear the news, that is just awful.
Sounds like that 'manager' thought the tires would fit his car too and jealous when someome beat him to them.
He should have asked if it was OK. Probably would still be working there.
That is so sad. I'm truly sorry!
I'll keep you guys in my prayers tonight. I hope he gets his job back, but if not maybe something better will come along - it often does!
Trlrboy said what I was thinking. Sometimes getting management's OK makes all the difference in the world. I am very sorry for you all, especially this time of year. I guess by "going easy" they meant that they would not contact the authorities.
I am very very careful. I work for a State Agency and all their "stuff" has special code tags. When I bring something in, I let my supervisors and administrators know that they are mine (extension cords, shelves, etc...) I know I could get fired for stealing and loose my pension. Too big of risk for small items...
Can he talk with management and ask if he can pay for the tires? Tell them he did not understand that he was stealing the tires. That he really thought that he was swapping junk tires for junk tires. Maybe they will count this time off as suspension time. It cannot hurt to ask, it is embarrassing but better than being unemployed at this point. I am really sorry for this happening to you both. I can understand that he did not think he was stealing at the time, but maybe now he can see their side too. Maybe they can still work it out. I will keep you both in my prayers.
Sorry to hear about the incident, can't be too careful these days with that kind of stuff.
Once while my manager was on vacation, I borrowed a printer for use at home for work purposes via my manager's manager approval (A VP ). When my manager came back he promptly fired me for abusing my position (he obviously didn't like me much). I even had a written permission memo from his manager, but as his manager was on vacation at that time, I was fired, on the spot, the same day he comes back.
After his manager arrived back, he blamed me of misusing my position in front of his manager in a final exit meeting, and asked me why I had taken the printer even though I had repeatedly told him that I had his manager's approval while he was away. I got so frusturated at last, and told him, to turn to his left and ask his manager why I took the printer. I was hired back after three weeks of sitting at home, but what an ordeal it was.
I hope he might be able to somehow work it out with Costco before it is too late and evetyhing is cast on stone.
What I want to know is why his "buddy" who gave him the idea in the 1st place isn't speaking up for him to management? Even if he goes in there and says, "Listen guys, I didn't think it was a big deal either, I was trying to help him out" Even if he didn't do it, the other guy needs to back up your husband so at least he can be justified.
I feel for you. Last Friday afternoon, as my DH was about to leave on a 2 week Christmas vacation to FL, he was told his position was being eliminated, effective immediately. This was done by the new head guy who stepped in to replace the COO (who was fired the week before). My DH's manager is also gone, as was the person who hired my DH. He was told several positions in his section were being eliminated so he's just waiting to see who else got the ax... Oh well, I guess we don't have to rush back to NJ.
Diane
Di I am so sorry to hear about Chris. Well he should have more time for camping now. :)
It's still so shaky out there with this economy! I'm hearing of more and more stories of people getting let go and without notice too. My DH had to let his company close down because our business was dropping off and our overhead with health insurance and liability insurance, etc. was getting very expensive. It took him a little bit but he found a nice job with a good company that provided benefits which took a load off our shoulders!! Hang in there...I looked in the paper everday not just the weekend help sections and happened to spy the ad for his new job midweek. Sometimes we'd just like to sell our home, move to a less expensive part of the country buy a home where we still actually have cash left over from the house sale and open up a simple little store in a sweet little town somewhere. Does that somewhere exist anywhere??? I don't know but there's times we'd like to find it.
Yes, places exist in those sweet little towns where taxes are low. I'm keeping it a secret.:D
Many are getting hit hard by bad times with companies laying off many, shutting down completely, firing and so forth. It's a bad time of year. I heard about a big executive who was within a week or two of retirement from a big corporation and was told he was fired without warning and was told he would get no retirement or benefits at all. Well, he "snapped" and ended up in the psychiatric ward and now his family has a big lawsuit against that company where he had worked for many years. That's a very sad story.
It's a very difficult time of the year to have things happen like losing a job during the holidays.
Tracy,
We're down in FL visiting my parents and they keep hinting that maybe we should go look at houses down here. My brother also lives down in this town, has been through the "downsizing" or in his case, 2 different banks he worked at were bought out and his staff was let go each time. He now owns his own business and is very happy. My DH loves the warm weather here but my oldest doesn't want to switch schools with only her senior year left... I'm hoping this is all for the best since Chris had such a long commute but the timing could have been better, such as spring/summer (prime camping season).
Diane
Di tell your parents sorry, but you have camping plans up north and you have to keep them. :) Plus Rick would freak out if he didn't get to visit his car once in a while. :p
MPDAT, I am so sorry to hear of this sad event just before the holidays. Since DH had the permission of a manager, it really doesnt seem fair, but as others here have said, most corporations take a dim view of this kind of materials appropriation, no matter how innocently intended. I hope that Costco did not attempt to ruin his reputation over this and will be satisfied with just letting him go and let that be the end of "the punishing." And like everyone else here , I hope that you will soon be writing us that he has a good new job.
MPTDAT, any updates on your Husband's situation ? Any luck in resolving this with Costco ? I hope you guys get over this quickly.
Nothing. He has been on a few interviews, but nothing so far. He told them at Costco that the customer gave the tires to him, but they said that the firing still stands because it is still stealing. I'm sorry but don't you have to be missing money or inventory for it to be considered stealing?? Even the guy who comes to pick up the old tires for recycling had the same count so who did it hurt?? He isn't even sure if he is going to get unemployment. They gave him a check for $3500 when they fired him but it is going fast. I want to go get a job, but he wants me to wait until he gets one so that the hours don't conflict because there is no way I can afford to pay for daycare for 2 ADD kids. It would probably cost more than I would make per hour for them to be in daycare for an hour. Just frustrated on this end. I love my DH but to be honest with you, I am sick of looking at him!! I am just glad the kids went back to school. Two weeks of all 3 of them 24-7 was getting unbearable!! LOL
Debby,
I know what you mean about getting sick of seeing your hubby. My DH is also home, looking for work. But this time it's not so bad. Just 2 years ago, his (IBM) department was downsized and 200 people were out of work. I know it was tough for him, but I swear after a month, I was ready to kill him. This went on month after month (took a year to find another job). Not sure how, but things did get better. He just seemed to be underfoot all the time. Guess I had my routine and he sort of got in the way. Being a manager at work, he was used to doing his thing and somehow managed to "suggest" more organized ways for me to do things at home, etc. Meanwhile I was running around like crazy taking care of 3 kids, the house, cooking & cleaning while he "looked" for work. Boy was I happy he found a job... now we're back in the same situation. THis time it's better. He does his thing; I do mine. He actually offers to pick up a kid or two. Think he likes to get out of the house. Tonight he offered to cook dinner. "By George, I think he's got it" ;) Hang in there. Life has it's moments, doesn't it?
Diane
Your husband should not have any trouble getting unemployment since he was fired and did not resign or retire. No company these days will give anything other than "Yes, he worked here" when asked about past employees that have had problems. Too many lawsuits have resulted from that.
I hope your right about the unemployment. My biggest problem now is the insurance. In order to keep the insurance we have now it is going to be $1,100 a month. Can you believe that?? We can't afford that. On top of that it was cut off the day he got fired. I thought that there was a law that said they had to keep you on until the end of the month?? We had my kids prescriptions refilled the day after he was fired and they "supposedly" covered it. Now they are telling us when all the paper work is finished we will owe them the entire amount. I have two boys, one with ADD and the other with ADHD. They are currently on Concerta, Straterra 40mg, Stratera 10mg, Desipramine and Zoloft. Right now they have enough medication to get through Thursday of this week. I was going to get it refilled today, but yesterday they told us that the computer shows we are covered, but we really aren't. I don't know what I am going to do. I know that I can't handle them without it.
You get on down there and fill it!! If the computer shows your covered, then officially you are. Actually, I'd call your pediatrician and explain your situation, maybe he can write you out a RX for a months supply or something. Wait for any letters in the mail from the insurance company, because they usually cover you for an extra month or something. We were cancelled because we moved from MA to CT, but the company said they'd cover us until the end of March. Good-luck. I would also appy for state insurance right away. Most of the time they are retroactive, so they will cover any medical expenses back one month.
Quote from: MPTDATI hope your right about the unemployment. My biggest problem now is the insurance. In order to keep the insurance we have now it is going to be $1,100 a month. Can you believe that?? We can't afford that. On top of that it was cut off the day he got fired. I thought that there was a law that said they had to keep you on until the end of the month?? We had my kids prescriptions refilled the day after he was fired and they "supposedly" covered it. Now they are telling us when all the paper work is finished we will owe them the entire amount. I have two boys, one with ADD and the other with ADHD. They are currently on Concerta, Straterra 40mg, Stratera 10mg, Desipramine and Zoloft. Right now they have enough medication to get through Thursday of this week. I was going to get it refilled today, but yesterday they told us that the computer shows we are covered, but we really aren't. I don't know what I am going to do. I know that I can't handle them without it.
Having just been thru this with us, there is COBRA which is insurance continuation for lay-offs (not sure about termination). Coverage is for 18months at about 2-3% above their normal rates. I'd do research on the COBRA laws. Our COBRA rate was $800, but compared to getting it on our own, that was a steal (in fact, because of my medical, we couldn't even get anyone to insure me and DH's allergies are not covered for 1 year). Definitely check with you unemployment office, they should be able to help out and check with your doctor's office as they may work with you and give you "free samples" to help out.
That was the COBRA rate!! $1,100 a month!!
I got a quote for my entire family in PA through COBRA and came up with rates around $400/month. Still pretty steep when you are unemployed and I didn't get to choose which carrier I would have. Who knows what the rates in your state would be.
Get on the internet to look for temporary health insurance. www.ehealthinsurance.com (//%22http://www.ehealthinsurance.com%22) is supposed to have decent rates with decent carriers. Even if you have to switch carriers temporarily to save some money, it MIGHT be worth the extra hassle. OR you could take a chance and just cover your children. I checked on the above website and got a quote for Aetna health insurance for my 6 year old for $84/month. Hope some of this helps.
And lastly, fight those insurance companies tooth and nail. FORCE the issue with a manager's manager if you have to about the prescriptions.
Good luck!
We're in the same boat since my Dh was laid off mid Dec. We signed up immediately for COBRA (about $1000/month) and it is retroactive. You only have a limited period to sign up though so watch deadlines. You can always start COBRA and then cancel if you find another program. We were in this spot 2 years ago and found we really didn't have any choice. Although there is state insurance that covers low income families (which we would qualify for with only unemployment coming in), we wouldn't have the same level of medical coverage that we had previously. Also beware of pre-existing condition clauses if changing insurers (this could be a huge problem). For us the large COBRA expense is a necessity because our son requires very specialized doctors (few pediatric neurosurgeons have experience with his conditions). We have spent time/effort dealing with less experienced doctors and it's quite frightening to have a neurologist/neurosurgeon ask us what he should do or worse yet, have a doctor assume he knows what to do, when he's really clueless. We have heard many horror stories. Imagine having brain/spinal cord surgery under those conditions. I admire doctors (or any professional) who knows his/her limitations and isn't afraid to admit it and refer you to someone else...
To get back to your point, last layoff we paid out COBRA for one year before my DH found work again. It was a huge sacrifice. This time we're more concerned coz our savings were eaten up last time. I'm going to look into whether our state offers any financial help. SOmeone told me there's a state catatrophic illness fund that helps cover expenses. Not sure if we'd qualify, but I'm going to research what's out there. Perhaps your state has some funds available too. Rememer too that these medical expenses should be advantageous at tax time. Diane
Quote from: MPTDATI hope your right about the unemployment. My biggest problem now is the insurance. In order to keep the insurance we have now it is going to be $1,100 a month. Can you believe that?? We can't afford that. On top of that it was cut off the day he got fired. I thought that there was a law that said they had to keep you on until the end of the month?? We had my kids prescriptions refilled the day after he was fired and they "supposedly" covered it. Now they are telling us when all the paper work is finished we will owe them the entire amount. I have two boys, one with ADD and the other with ADHD. They are currently on Concerta, Straterra 40mg, Stratera 10mg, Desipramine and Zoloft. Right now they have enough medication to get through Thursday of this week. I was going to get it refilled today, but yesterday they told us that the computer shows we are covered, but we really aren't. I don't know what I am going to do. I know that I can't handle them without it.
GET A LAWYER TODAY. It may save you tens of thousands of dollars. It may get your husband's job back. It will make the difference between unemployment and non-unemployment, and between COBRA and non-COBRA, and about whether or not you are insured now.
I can't emphasize enough. You do not need free internet advice. You need real professional advice, and you need it now. Your husband should not speak to Costco again without a lawyer.
Austin (not a lawyer, nor do I play one on television)
For a famliy of 4, $1,100 per month to have the same coverage is a fantastic deal. It may seem like a hardship, but this will pay for itself in time. Costco must offer COBRA coverage. It's the law. By paying for the coverage, you are continuing your group coverage which is key to having the HIPAA law enforced. The "portability" of the HIPAA law states (paraphrased) 'if you currently have group medical coverage & you change jobs, "pre-existing exclusion" clauses MUST be waived when you sign up for another group medical coverage." Hence, if you drop your group coverage, you're leaving yourselves open with the gap of either waiting for group coverage through your DH's next job or, worse, never having a pre-existing condition covered with your next medical insurance, group coverage or otherwise. Not a predictament you want to be in with your kids' conditions.
As for unemployment, here in Michigan, your DH will have a problem with coverage if Costco submits "fired/let go" on the determination form. You cannot get unemployment payments if you were fired for insubordination. My mom went to court 2x, once for the hearing & once for the appeal, when a former employee who was fired challenged the status of "fired" from my mom's business. My mom said she probably spent more money on legal fees than the unemployment payments would have been. However, under the circumstances (very ugly), there was no way she was going to let that woman get another dime.
It may be worth it for you all to check with the department of Labor & consult with someone who knows about the legalities of your DH's circumstances with Costco. Don't know how much help they will be, but at least they will be able to give your DH an objective perspective in accordance with the labor laws.
I wish you all the best in your DH finding gainful employment soon.
DiW,
New Jersey has a program called "New Jersey Cares". As far as I know, it covers whatever your insurance or unemployment doesn't and insures that you are able to continue living (not freezing or starving to death). The "state" agency for social services is where you can find out about it and other programs for which you might qualify. (Peggy's cousin worked at the state office in Elizabeth several years ago).
I'm surprised no one here (including me) mentioned a lawyer before Austin, but I'm with him on this one and I NEVER think about sueing anyone. I'd speak to a lawyer to see what your rights are. You might be able to contact the bar association in your state and ask them questions about your situation. I know we did that here in PA when we had some issues with my father and an illness. They put me in touch with a lawyer who answered all my questions. It was VERY comforting to know where we stood. In our case, we ended up not needing a lawyer, but the bar association should be able to help you with a non-profit group of lawyers -- if such a thing really exists... ;)
Good luck and keep us informed.
consulting an attorney is the best idea, but also can be expensive, so ideas for seeking help from someone doing pro bono or " public aid" work is the way to go IF you can find someone. In some places, there is "The Legal aid society" and it is a great idea. BUT--I called the one in Atlanta a few yeards ago on behalf of our cleaning woman who had a problem and no money for attorney fees and Legal Aid said they only cover people who make less than 20K per year. Our cleaner and her husbamd both worked fulltime, but very low-paying, jobs, but with three kids to raise, they were among the "working poor" and couldnt even afford health insurance.
I believe in most states you can contact the local bar association and they will set you up with a free or low cost consultation with an attorney specializing in your area of need. That way you can at least sort out some options. Too bad you're not in California - Costco is union here and this is exactly the kind of situations they were created for.
Best of luck.
We applied for MIchild. It is medical and prescription coverage for the kids. It was accepted and approved. We just have to wait for the paperwork. I guess things are looking up a little bit. It is a shame it is gonna take 3-4 weeks for DH's 401K to be given to us. The mortgage will be late next month!! The worst part is the fact that DH and I aren't getting along at all. He is about ready to move in with his mother for a while. Two steps ahead, one back.
Quote from: MPTDATThe worst part is the fact that DH and I aren't getting along at all. He is about ready to move in with his mother for a while. Two steps ahead, one back.
MPTDAT, while all of this is going on, I hope you and DH can keep in mind that many studies have shown that when the husband is out of work, it creates terrible stresses on a marriage and also makes a man feel like he is a dismal failure (whether he admits it openly or not) And given the difficulties of your situation, it might not be such a bad idea for you both to have a little "rest" from each other. Some time away from each other may give you both a new perspective and help some healing to take place as well as preventing new "wounds" in your relationship. (That is, if family members can keep from taking sides.) I wish you both the best as you struggle to find the way to deal with these problems and maintain a sense of security for your little ones.
I'm so sorry to hear how this 'episode' is affecting your lives. As Nightowl stated, maybe a brief vacation from each other may help, but even while apart, don't neglect the simple acts of supporting one another emotionally, and reminding your families that you won't take sides against one another. This has been a horrible example of what happens when things are not made crystal clear within your chain of command in the workplace, may have simply been a way for your employer to cut back on employees without admitting that things aren't going well for the company. Whatever the final analysis, keep your honor and self respect and you will do well.
T
;)
:( I feel for you two. It's difficult enough to have this problem of not getting along because of the job problem. Please try to keep the communication open between the two of you......allow time to cool off and don't let this all fester up like a big boil on your skin.
MPTDAT,
I am sorry to hear what you are going through. We were in your boat in 2001, DH decided to go back to school and get a second degree in IT,(company paid if his grades are above a 3.0) I supported him even though his employer said they did but in reality they did everything they could to get him to fail. They put him on 1 day shift, then 1 night shift so he would only have 6 hours between the 2 and he had a 45 min drive to and from work. At that time our daughter was only 2 and I was not working. Well, we survived that year of studies and me picking up the pieces for the family (I forgot to mention we are taking care of his mother in our home). We had no time for get away weekends so we were committed to stay home. In May of 2001, the economy was not doing well in the semi conductor industry where he was so he felt he had made the right decision to go into IT, well after the dot.com showdown there were really no jobs for him to even check out so he stayed where he was. Well, June 23rd he graduated with a 4.0, he took his grades to his boss and he was shocked, no congrats or anything. He took the grades turned them in to the company. The next day DH went to work feeling good and was handed his walking papers. The company was downsizing......
We did stay on COBRA insurance for 6 months but it got to be too much it was $975 for just the 3 of us. We kept it because I had a pre-existing condition and I didn't think we could get coverage. Well, after 6 month of unemployment we changed just to a major medical insurance which dropped our rates to around $370. During his job searching time 911 hit so no one, I mean no one was hiring or even looking to hire. It was an awful time to be out of work. We had about a 6 inch stack of rejection letters from companies. We laugh now but he even got rejected for the Deaf and Blind School. When he got that one he felt he hit rock bottom.
I made an agreement with him if after 6 months if he hasn't found anything I would go back to work. That is what I did. I found a job close by home and DH took care of DD while I was at work. I had to overlook things when I came home tired from work. He didn't do things the way I did so I had to close my eyes to a lot of things. I tried to stay as positive as I could but it is hard with no light at the end of the tunnel.
One thing I did do, it was summer here in Phoenix, I mean hotter than haddes. So I made us a lunch every Friday and DH, DD and I would go to the park or lake and go boating or just hang out along the water for several hours just to get away from the world for a few hours. I felt that made us closer and we got away from the pressures for a little while and enjoyed our daughter together. It is hard work to be the spouse of an unemployed husband but try to be supportive as best you can. They feel they have failed their family and they don't know how to express it. Sometimes it comes out in anger and frustration.
DH has found a good job after 10 months of searching, and has been there almost 2 years. He is working for the local power company so hopefully his job security is a little better than the other one. We are still trying to replenish our saving but it hard to play catch up. We are not there yet. It all takes time. Take care. Keep your chin up.
Mary Romeo
Well, he is definately moving in with his mother. It all came to a head last night when I came home from a Cub Scout parent meeting. See, we are both involved in our kids Cub Scout pack. He is the committee chairperson and I am the Den Leader for the Bears, secretary and assistant Cubmaster. His best friend is the cubmaster and my best friend is another den leader. This meeting is for our Blue and Gold banquet and since I planned it last year and got all the donations for the raffle, he told me to go and he would stay home with the kids. The meeting was set for 6:30, and lasted until about 7:30. We, me and our two friends, then stayed around for a few drinks and I ended up getting home around 10:30. His friend, who is very talkative, was trying to talk to me about DH and for me to see his side of it, then said DH is extremely jealous of a good friend of mine who happens to be a man, single and good looking. He started implying things I thought were inappropriate about what DH thinks me and this other friend are supposedly doing. When I got home, I asked DH about it and a terrible argument ensued. He implyed that I wasn't with our friends, but with the friend he is jealous over. He even called his friend while I was sitting there to find out what was going on and how the meeting went. So he knows I was at the meeting. He mentioned his jealousy a while ago about my friend and I went out of my way not to associate with him around DH. In fact my friend got mad for ignoring him. We really need to be away from each other for a while.
"We really need to be away from each other for a while."
MPTDAT, it sounds as though this is a wise decision for the moment. Also if your male friend is employed, it might make your husband feel even less worthy of you and increase his "imaginings." He is obviously feeling very unsure of himself right now, but if this is something that continues, it sure doesnt bode well for your future together. So long as you know you are above reproach, you dont have to take any kind of abuse from him or anyone, including his friend.
Usually, spouses who are jealous over an innocent friendship with a member of the opposite sex can benefit from some professional counseling. Complete trust in each other seems to me an absolute requirement of a strong marriage
I wonder, though, if part of his jealousy stems from the fact that you were out until 10:30 having a good time with friends while he was at home, "babysitting" and may have felt "neglected" because you were having a good time and he was not? Also, sometimes men who have led lives which dont include male-female friendships as normal dont even realize that these things exist and can be totally free of any "immoral" implications. (And it is a matter of generational (age-related) differences in some cases. My FIL and MIL would have been horrified at the thought that I had dinner in a restaurant with another man when my husband was not present.)
(BTW, neither my DH nor I believe in what has been erroneously called "open marriage" [YUCK!] but in our professional lives, we both had quite a few good friends of the opposite sex we always felt free to socialize with--dinner with them now and then or driving alone to meetings with them on occasion. In each case, these were perfectly innocent relationships and neither of us ever experienced any jealousy over them since we both felt that good friends of either sex enrich our lives. And in our case jealousy over such friendships would have ruined our marriage very quickly. )
At least you had witnesses to your whereabouts till 10:30. Your situation is extremely complex right now. I would urge you to make a last ditch attempt to work out your differences if that is possible. Don't wait till he has moved out to start protecting yourself and the children. Get legal advice right now. It sounds to me like there is something much deeper going on here than just a job loss and it sounds like there has been a buildup of anger over a long period of time. Although I don't know your situation in further detail, if he moves out he may not be coming back to you. If both agree to a timeout, then it might be good to put a time frame on it and to arrange for the children's visits and so forth. Try to stay positive and don't pick any fights. Trying to convince a man against his will just makes you the enemy.
I don't claim to be a marriage counselor, but I want to stress Nightowl's first paragraph a little bit.
Maybe your DH IS feeling a little inadequate, which leads to stress. Men have an innate sense of needing to be the provider. That's why some men don't like it when the woman makes more money.
As you know, we are one income family now while Holly is in school. We are scraping by, but she has told me to ask her dad for money if we need it. I'm doing EVERYTHING I can to keep from doing that. Just because I feel like I need to provide for her. Just something that's "built-in," I guess.
It does sound like multiple problems are happening, but just be acutely aware that he may be feeling inadequate right now because of job loss.
Larry
The worst part of this whole thing is the fact that he is now on a "couples help" message board. I know your thinking, your on a message board too, but you all are like family to me. This is upsetting to me because he is not explaining the whole situation to them. He doesn't know these people. These people now think I am having an affair, so they are telling him not to move out because it is just going to go on in front of my children if he leaves. I am not having an affair. I don't know, I am just lost and confused now.
MPTDAT,
I am so sorry hearing all the troubles you are going trough.
Why don't you go into the same message board and start posting yourself as well. Seeing the both sides of the coin might prompt some of the posters of that board to give your husband really good advise. Just a radical thought ......
Birol
Quote from: MPTDATThe worst part of this whole thing is the fact that he is now on a "couples help" message board. I know your thinking, your on a message board too, but you all are like family to me. This is upsetting to me because he is not explaining the whole situation to them. He doesn't know these people. He is saying that I am "flirting" at the bar and other things about my male friend. These people now think I am having an affair, so they are telling him not to move out because it is just going to go on in front of my children if he leaves. He is not explaining that me and my friend talk about his 2 year old son and my two boys all the time, or the fact that when my DH doesn't go to the bar with us, his two best friends are still there, or that my cousin works there and she loves him and would tell him in a heartbeat if I were to do anything wrong. This is a tiny, hole in the wall bar where everyone knows each other. In fact I think half of them are related to me!! We go there on Saturday nights for the karaoke, which is what my cousin does. I enjoy listening to the music and every once in while get up there myself and sing. He was the one that made me go to the bar to begin with. Our kids therapist told me that I shouldn't feel guilty because I need a break from the kids once a week. The therapist told me to go and enjoy myself. I go with DH or my best friend, who happens to be his best friends girlfriend. According to him, if I go with my friend and he doesn't, or if he goes somewhere else with his friends, I am seeing someone. Yet he still says he trusts me. Two years ago, I wouldn't leave the house, but since I lost 70 lbs., I feel more confident about going in public. I don't know, I am just lost and confused now.
It sounds as thought it doesnt matter what you do, your husband is determined to paint a picture where you are always in the wrong. but you are providing him with the canvas and the brush.
So maybe, since you cant change him, it would help if you changed your behaviour a bit.
Instead of going to that bar, it might help if you and your friends found another place to hang out on your "night-out" like a local coffee shop or even going to the mall or a movie--any place where your nice male friend is not present.. At least it removes one source of husband's complaints. Of course, your going to the bar is not the REAL problem here, but if he keeps accusing you of these things, it is sure proof that the bar and the friend are just an excuse, that the man is unbalanced, and all he wants to do is control you. (IF the latter is true, you will NEVER please him, and you could be in danger.)
Also, your considerable weight loss has probably added to his feelings of insecurity--another sign that he is dealing with many more things than the loss of his job and the tensions this causes. Professional counseling is really necessary here whether you stay together or not Statistics show that if neither of you gets help and you do split up, you are both probably going to go on and repeat the same mistakes with others that you made with each other.
Something else which might help is to seek emotional support and counseling from a church group or from your pastor. Many pastors today are trained in psychological and marriage counseling and charge their parishioners little or nothing for this sort of help.
Things have reached a crisis point in your home and it is important to do something POSITIVE about this NOW because living in this kind of situation is going to have a very damaging effect on your children and as Nancy hinted earlier, may actually be putting you and them at risk of great danger.
Internet marriage advice is just like internet legal advice and internet medical advice. Worth every penny you pay for it.
It's not that such advice is necessarily bad, but without knowing you or your husband personally, those giving it are not in a position to weigh the consequences. And without specific training (or a HUGE amount of experience) they are not likely to even KNOW the possible consequences.
PJay and I are the only members of her family to see marriage counselors repeatedly. At the same time, we are the only ones (out of six siblings and parents) to never be divorced (some twice, and one three times). Even a stable marriage can be improved upon with professional advice.
It is not unusual for a marriage to go through high stress after a job loss (I have been unemployed for more than a month on 5-6 occasions, so I know this from experience). At this point, (with the help of counselors in the past) we have both become accustomed to it, so this time (6 months and counting) it's not even a blip on the radar screen.
It may seem like you can't afford a marriage counselor right now, but a divorce will cost you hundreds of times as much as the counselor. When you finish with the counselor, you stop paying. But there are plenty of divorced people who continue to pay for it for the rest of their lives.
It's been over 30 years since PJay's parents were divorced, and they both still pay for it every day, along with each of their children, and I see it in the grandchildren that were born 10, 15, and 20 years after the fact.
You can't afford to not handle this correctly, and you have to start with a competent, successful professional. A clergyman is a good place to start, but many know they are only a starting place and can/will refer you to someone who will be able to help you work through your difficulties. He is likely to refer you to someone who is knowledgeable in and deeply respectful of your religious beliefs and will weave that into the services he provides. This is important, because I know of no religion that treats marriage like a disposable commodities.
Even if you have no particular religious beliefs, understand that God does not want to see your marriage in a mess.
Now for my own (less than 2 cent) advice: YOU are the only person you can change. If you are successful in changing your partner, you will despise or hate what you get. The best you can do is to become the person you should be (the person God wants you to be). Notice I said the person you should be, not the person your partner wants you to be. That's the flip side. If you become who they want you to be, they will despise or hate you. Therein lies the rub...knowing who you are supposed to be, apart from God (or at least a very good counselor) is extremely difficult.
Seeing a counselor is not an admission of failure any more than seeing a medical doctor is an admission of failure. Please go together, and if he won't go with you, go without him.
Austin
AB is right about this mess you are in. Nothing said by any or us, or the people your husband is cyber-complaining to, is worth a damn since we have never seen you and dont know the entire situation you and your husband are dealing with, and MOST IMPORTANT of all, are NOT qualified counselors. All we can do is make "guesses" based on our own experiences, and then say something we hope will be helpful to you in some way.
One reason I suggested seeing a minister is because you have NO MONEY to spare and if you start this process by seeing a spiritual advisor, knowing your financial plight to begin with, he can aim you in the right direction. Today, any church leader worth his salt knows every detail of the local social service system and can put you in touch with someone who does this kind of work and charges little or nothing. And like Tom said, there is nothing wrong in seeking help. If you had a broken leg, you'd not hesitate to see a doctor; with a broken relationship you just see a different kind of "doctor." If your husband does not want to go, then you must go alone.
But one of the first questions you are likely to be asked by any professionslly trained marriage counselor is: "Do BOTH of you REALLY want to stay in this marriage?" And the answer has to be an honest one, because unless both of you are willing and able to change and to find a way to truly heal the wounds of the past, you will never make it. Also, while I tend to agree with Austin that divorce is not a good answer, and that it victimizes families for generations to come, I think this is NOT TRUE for EVERY single marriage--and this partly depends on what is really wrong. If one of you is of low moral character or has severe mental/emotional problems, than there may be very good reasons to separate.
Whatever happens, we hope you will get help. Please know that you are in our prayers. (And, BTW, this is not intended as criticism, but it might help if you both stop spending time in bars--alcohol, even in small amounts, does not help people to think clearly. Also, it's probably not usually an atmosphere where either of you will find useful answers to your problems. Sympathy, yes, wise answers, not often.)
I agree with the above that we are not counselors, just caring friends (as for me, my X was the same way -- talked non-truths to others [even my family - who believe him]).
Being in the similiar situation, definitely speak to your church. Also, DEFINITELY advise the teachers/counselors at your childrens' school. This for sure is or at least will be effecting them. Teachers will be able to help your children emotionally knowing there are problems at home.
AB is right ...... We are all trying to help, but you need more than our good intended recommendations.
Good luck with it all.
AB is right that we are not professional counselors. We are friends trying to help. Experience tells me quite a lot about your situation even if I don't know you. Let's just say, "Been there, done that" to do with a bad marriage. I just "know" instinctively when there is more going on than a lost job. Stay tuned because the real reasons will come to the surface as time goes on. Remember that when one person is placing the most criticism on the other one, there is usually more than just anger over a lost job. It's reasonable to give up some of the behavior that he seems to be complaining about. It's not reasonable to give up your entire identity or all the things you enjoy. However, if you want to save your marriage, then do like NightOwl said, stay out of bars and away from the good looking male friend. Find other activities to do with friends at your house or theirs. Take care of yourself and your children. Is he attempting to get another job? Or, is he just taking it easy and looking for any excuse not to work? Start keeping a log of your activities and of what he says and does around you, in case you need to discuss things with your counselor.
Ok, my FIL took the kids for the weekend to be alone together. We went out to dinner with our neighbors and then went to an irish pub for a drink, then we decided to go to our bar to see our friends. We all drove in the same car, a rental, as my mountaineer is in the shop. We get to our bar and all is fine for a while, we are playing the jukebox and having a good time. After a while, my male friend walks in. I didn't even acknowledge that he was there and went on to have a good time. While I was in the bathroom, my friend walks up to DH and they proceded to have a lengthy conversation about football (boring!!). All was good then my neighbors wanted to go home. DH said that he would run them home and come right back. When he came back, I was sitting at the table with 2 female friends and my male friend. DH jammed a stool in between us and sat down and proceded to what I thought, have a good time. Well this morning he was acting weird and I asked him about it. He asked me what went on in the 10 minutes he was gone to take the neighbors home. He also said he wanted no secrets between us and asked me to empty my purse for him to see everything that was in there. I have never felt so degraded in my life! I have no idea what he expected to find in there but he found nothing. He already checks the caller ID and the redial history on the phone, he has even checked my cell phone to see who I have called and who has called me. I am losing my mind! I don't know how much more of this I can take.
A few people have mentioned getting professional help, and a few have suggested cutting down on time spent in the bars and consuming alcohol. I'll second both of those ideas. If your DH has no job, and you are a stay at home mom, you have no money to spend there. And, if I understand correctly, your FIL agreed to take your kids so you could spend time "alone together". It seems that he assumed that you wanted to try to talk and work things out. Kind of hard to do while pub crawling. Maybe you think I'm sounding kinda hard line about this, maybe I am. But if you really want to end the chaos in your life, you need to change the behavior that causes it. Don't mean to sound critical, just trying to make a point.
T
;)
This may be tough love from your second family, but I will agree with Toni and what she said just above my reply here.
Larry
I'll third what Toni said. You and your DH need professional help & advice. At this point, both of you are pushing each other away. Just look at a couple of the situations you've told to us & you'll see what the two of you are doing.
1)At the bar, (where the two of you shouldn't have been) your DH left you with your friend while he drove the others home. A planned pitfall for you to further support his claims to his friends of infidelity on your part. He can say "she preferred to stay with him rather than go with me". (Even when warned about it, you stayed in the bar rather than going with your DH on the trip).
2) Your statement that your friend was hurt by being neglected by you shows that you have and do spend time with him, even if it's a platonic relationship. This is just another way to spite your DH. Plus, you tell us the friend is "young, good looking and just a friend". Isn't, to you, your DH "young, good looking and your BEST friend"?
I, too, don't want to appear mean. The only "side" I'm taking is that of Toni's.
MPTDAT, please THINK!
Has ANYONE here encouraged you to continue going to bars and carrying on a friendship with someone whose presence is complicating your marriage? Why do you keep coming here for ideas about this when you act as though nothing we have said makes sense to you?
Basically EVERYONE on the board who has responded to this situation is in agreement on several important things.
1. YOU NEED PROFESSIONAL HELP.
2. Your friendship (no matter how innocent) with this other guy is causing BIG problems between you and your husband.
3. STAY OUT OF BARS! Socailizing with friends is good. Doing it in bars on a regular basis is NOT! Move your "friendships" to a coffeeshop or cafe--or even the local MacDonalds. If your "friends" srefuse to move from the bar, you'd better take a good look at them.
Ask yourself some hard questions about them. What kind of people are they REALLY? What sort of moral standards do they have? How are their OWN marriages working? Do they believe 100% in being faithful? Do they care that small children are involved? Do they take your sad situation seriously or do some of them think of this as a soap opera for their own amusement?
Consider this: We who are trying to help you here are from all walks of life, ages, and geographic regions. Are you PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SAYING? HELLOOO, here, WE ARE ALL GIVING YOU THE SAME ADVICE and are dismayed, given your particular circumstanceses, that you continue to make the same mistakes.
Once again: It is very significant that we have ALL GIVEN YOU THE SAME ADVICE.
And remember: NO ONE'S MARRIAGE WAS EVER IMPROVED BY HANGING OUT IN A BAR!!
In fact, you would be well advised to exchange the bar scene for a young married group at church. A church group can provide you with an almost endless supply of warm friends you have things in common with, emotional support, moral guidance, inexpensive ways to socailize, and lots of WHOLESOME activites which YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY CAN SHARE IN!
this is not a substitute for seeing a marriage counselor.
I can't believe I'm actually going to post this....I agree with the above posts, including Nightowl. You owe your life partner with whom you exchanged marriage vows with & you owe your children to be immensely proactive in mending your marriage. There is far more at stake here than just your & your DH's "feelings". Your children are entitled to a 2-parent-loving home.
Communication is only 3% words, the other 97% is tone of voice, body language, actions, voice inflictions, etc. I have to say, it appears you are handling this "friendship" with your male friend & your DH in a very dyslexic manner. If you ignore your "friend" in front of your DH & then socialize with your "friend" when your DH is not around...this odd behavior would raise suspicion in anyone's mind. As a rule of human nature, when people have a void of information, they tend to fill in the gap with extrapolations & "non-truths". Hence, this is how rumors can run wild. You owe your family the respect NOT to socialize with this "friend" when not in the presence of your family. Or, simply not socialize with your "friend" at all. True friends have each others best interest at heart. Thus far, by your own account, you have given reasons for your DH to be suspicious.
Having endured 2 lay-offs in 2 years, I can tell you it is very stressful on the entire family. The 1st time DH was laid-off, our DS was 7 weeks old. I was already a wreck with the hormones out of whack & sleep deprivation. DH was VERY devastated as the company (DCX) had recruited him out of college & moved him here. He had worked for Chrysler/DCX for 12+ years & felt not only betrayed, but extremely demoralized as the sole provider for our family. We made a pack to never display our stress in front of DS & that we would take time out to de-stress & re-energize ourselves. It worked until 2 days before DH was to begin a new job. He strayed into a venue which on the surface appeared much more sinister than what it actually was. As a result DH went to one-on-one counseling for 3 or 4 months (then I started attending with him) before we both came to realize it was his make-shift way of grappling at a sense of control & nothing more. Had we not had that counseling intervention we would have not stayed married, nor would we have endured the 2nd lay-off, 2 years later, so well.
The 2nd time DH was laid-off work, we were much more prepared financially as we had refinanced the house for a lower mortgage rate and we set up a revolving home equity loan long before the lay-off occurred. This relieved a lot of stress. Plus, we were better prepared emotionally having gone through this before & with the counseling. It was still nerve racking. But, we had the "tools" to handle this temporary set-back.
With the intense stress of a situation such as yours, you really need to focus on what really matters: keeping an intact family for the sake of your children. And, that means going to any length possible to achieve that goal. A really good counselor will help you achieve that goal. You all sound like you
Well, I agree with the above. You need to try to keep your marriage intact and you need to think about the children as well as yourself. A counselor can help you deal with the "distrust" issues your husband is creating like his searching your purse and checking caller ID for "anything." At the same time a counselor can help you in so many ways to understand the situation and to try to help you regain some peace at home. If you don't get the right counselor the first time, then find one who will listen and who will give you ideas on what to do. I have been told that some counselors only listen to people vent without really helping. Please know that people here at PUT care and are trying to help but you need additional help that we can't give you. The future is in your hands and you can try to make it better for your family. The other alternative is to do nothing and to keep enduring a world of unhappiness, distrust, and downright emotional and verbal abuse which can escalate into physcial abuse. Nothing is sacred in a marriage like that and it will bleed over and affect you and your children for years to come. So far you tell us that things are not better, so biding your time has not helped so far. Visiting bars has not helped either. Next time you want to get out of the house with husband, do something different for just the two of you. It might be nice to have some limits on just how much you can tolerate, too, and don't keep letting those limits be overstepped. Allowing certain things to continue only reinforces that behavior from your husband. Take care of yourself and your children. I hope things improve for you.
Quote from: NightOwlAlso, while I tend to agree with Austin that divorce is not a good answer, and that it victimizes families for generations to come, I think this is NOT TRUE for EVERY single marriage--and this partly depends on what is really wrong. If one of you is of low moral character or has severe mental/emotional problems, than there may be very good reasons to separate.
This is a major oversight on my part and is 100% true. If one partner is creating physical danger (and cheating ALWAYS creates physical danger) then there is a hard question to face and only a permanent end to that danger can resolve the issue. In those situations, sometimes (but not always) divorce is the only option.
Austin
Ok, here goes!! First, DH is my one true best friend and he is very handsome! I tell him that all the time especially since he just grew a beard. (although he is worried about gray being in it!!, I think he looks sophisticated!) He is trying all that he can to get a job, I do realize that. He has his resume on every job board in our area. he has been on quite a few interviews also. Second, we did spend most of the weekend talking and arguing, unfortunatly, and that had nothing to do with my friend. It was pretty much us getting out everything that bothers us about each other. Third, My male friend comes up to us when we are there, he genuinely likes DH. Fourth, my friends at the bar are either happily married or in serious relationships and most seem to have no problems going to the bar with or without their mates. This is a family bar and grill. We know each others kids and in the summer they have a cruise night in which classic cars are showcased. DH brings his '77 Mustang II. These people are literally my second family. But then alot of my real family is there also. Fifth, there are bigger problems than just my friend. I have had two miscarriages in the past year and a half and that has played a big part of it. Sixth, he got his 401K out for us to live on while we are waiting for unemployment, it is over $12,000. We don't spend that much when we do go to the bar. Every other drink I have is a coke because I know I may end up driving home. They give those to me for free. Seventh, you did mention physical abuse, that sometimes does scare me. Although it has been awhile, 1992, he literally threw me against a table and left a bruise from one arm across my chest to my other arm when I was pregnant with my oldest son. He was arrested for domestic violence in 1996, he tried to run me over with his car. He had a habit of throwing things and destroying things when he got mad. He had to take mandatory anger abuse classes and he hasn't shown any symptoms or signs of abuse in a LONG time. But sometimes I am afraid to tell him things, afraid he will get very mad. I do love him with all my heart and the word divorce has never entered either of our minds to be honest with you. We just need some time away from each other for a while.
With just about the same problems as you, I can only say. Good luck, withdrawing from the 401k will cause financial hardship with the taxes, it throws everything into another ball park. DH has been unemployed 3 times in the last 5 years and is currently unemployed since last May -- his have all been lay-offs due to either Y2K or 9/11 or just this past of being slow business for GE -- none of which have been his fault. (NOT saying your DH's current situation was exactly his fault; but he does have to list WHY he is unemployed and even with explanation, it will stick out like a sore thumb). We also have had maritial problems -- did seek counseling and to some extent it helped -- so I don't want to sway anyone's need for counseling by the fact, I'm not sure if it was the best thing for us because everything we did with the help of the counselor we had, we were already doing most of it ourselves; but we did do the counseling.
$12,000 will not last long and if you unemployment is like ours, it does help a little, but not as much as one would think and again the $12,000 will not last long.
Everyone hear is just trying to help by voicing their experiences/opinions.
Don't take what people are saying as a "judgement", but as caring advice.
I guess each of us could give someone a "run for their money" with problems; not everyone talks about them, but are willing to help with advice -- and that's all it is - is advice -- take it or leave it -- it's FREE and lot is coming from experience.
I agree with Angelsmom10, It is advise, and most of it is based on real life experience .....
In my humble opinion, your best bet is to go counselling, and talk with each other honestly, if you are both willing to save your marriage without any question marks. Me and DW had our differences (man is that an understatement or what) but we never allowed "a friend" to cause any friction between us, it was dealt with immediately the moment there was a potential for a misunderstanding, without me or DW voicing our opinion too much. Then again, that is what worked for us, we were always together, whether the air between us was good or not.
I hope your next post will be about counselling sessions being arranged ......
End as for getting money from 401K, I just don't know ...... We never touched our RRSP yet (401K Equivalent I guess). We have some money there, and I am thinking of getting it only to pay off the Windstar. It will barely pay it off, and we wouldn't dream of getting it and spending it. It is the only cash we have left .....Then again, that is us, being probably too conservative and paranoid.
A note on the $12k from DH's 401k. That just increased DH's income for the year it was drawn in by $12k and taxes will have to be paid on that IN ADDITION to the withdrawl penalties.
I know, I had a similar situation, was forced to pull a similar amount from my 401k and the next April owed Uncle Sam another $4,000 which I had to set up on a payment plan.
Since YMMV better ask a tax professional, if you can't afford one, call the IRS and ask.
Our prayers are with you all.
mike
My father-in-law is a CPA for the IRS. He assures us it is fine. The 401K is from his last job that he quit more than 5 years ago.The $12,000 is after penalties.
Debby, you may not like what I am going to tell you because you are in denial about your situation. You say that you love him and at the same time you are afraid of him by not being able to tell him what you are feeling because he may get very mad. Jealousy and possessivenes, the humiliation of his searching your purse and checking caller Id all all danger signs which amount to psychological battering. There, I said it. You don't have to be hit to be abused, though these things just mentioned usually end up in physical abuse. Are the things he is doing to you the way someone treats the person they love? NO! It is all setting up for an even more painful phase. Is this what you really want? I think not! You are in an extremely intense and confusing emotional situation, making it difficult for you to see clearly what is happening. It appears that you are hooked in by FEAR and you stay in this relationship because of it. First, you have fear of survival, making it financially, fear of being poor, being the sole provider for your children and being alone. Secondly, you have a fear of how he makes you feel, are dependent on his love and approval, feeling distressed, and you are tolerating his irrational behavior. Third, you fear what he might do if you upset him. You say you love him but you know his potential, so this is not distorting reality, but accepting this as a condition of his love is distorting reality which amounts to collusion. You are actually aiding the situation by having pity toward him and at the same time turning it all inside yourself with denial because you don't know what to do. When you see yourself as powerless, you are not seeing things as they really are. Denial may be short term comfort but nothing is more harmful. The way to change your situation is to take control of your life by sorting through your thoughts and feelings. Behavior is the result of thinking and feeling. Ask yourself, "Is this the way love is supposed to feel?"
I care about you as do the others here who have posted their feelings and thoughts through the "voice of experience." Get help sorting things out so that you can make new choices and decisions that are not based on fear but on what is in your best interest and that of your family. Remember that it is wrong to accept humiliation, cruelty, abuse and unhappiness. Doing nothing about it is also very wrong and makes for a far greater failure. Again, I am not judging but only offering advice in an attempt to help you. No one has a right to judge you. Please know that you are in my thoughts and prayers during this difficult time.
Disclaimer: B-flat is not a therapist of any kind but is a very caring person.
The 401k money WILL affect your taxes for the year drawn out. We drew out $20,000 to pay down on a home. After taxes and penalty, we actually got $16,000. When it came to tax time and filed our taxes, we were married and had one child, we ended up paying an additional $5,000 dollars, when we normally get a refund because we always claim married and zero dependents during the year. So after all was said and done we got $11,000 out of $20,000.
The things that may help are if you get Earned Income Credit, but then here again the $15,000(guessing on the original amount) would probably throw you out, because of the increase in the amount of income. (income limit for married filing joint for 2003 is $34,692 with two or more children).
I really and truly hope it doesn't affect your taxes, but from experience and knowing a LITTLE about it I say it is probable that it will.
I wish you and your DH the best during these tough times.
Denial.......More than just a river in Africa. Debby, when I read your last post, I see all kinds of signs of denial and enabling behavior. If your DH has such a pattern of bad temper and suspicion, why would you go out of your way to spend time with someone you know he has a problem with where you are concerned? Is your male friend aware of the suspicions your DH has about him? If he is, and if he is really your friend, why would he put you at risk with your DH by repeatedly spending time with you? And if he isn't aware, which I doubt, why would you continue to put him in a bad spot with your DH, especially if you are really his friend? I could go on and on with more questions about this kind of behavior, but I don't see the need. You aren't ready to accept any of responsibility for these actions, and your DH isn't either. That's why we suggest professional help.
Toni
My personal opionion is, " I have no opinion" !
Debbie - I think everyone is just trying to help, but I'm getting the sense we should just back off. I have said this in the past and I'll say it again - The dangerous thing about the computer is there is no personal contact. We are not with you, seeing your situation unfold and being able to give an objective opinion. We only know what you tell us, so one sentence can be taken three or more different ways. It's to difficult to judge someones situation like that, it's dangerous to do even if you do see and know the person. On this board we share just what we want to, and this can be good or bad. One thing is true, we have to take everyones words on faith.
You know your situation best and you know what needs to happen to make it better. I'm not going to offer you any more advice, but I will pray for you any your family and your situation. I have a pretty good idea by reading this thread what to pray for, but if you have any thing else, please e-mail me! Good-luck girl! Nothing last forever, and neither will this situation with your DH. Things are always changing. Stay strong and if you don't have a good church - find one. There is nothing like a good "family" who can encourage you and love you. (woops sorry - there I go again giving out advice!) :rolleyes: :)