Before you read further--I like to think I am not a bigot no matter what someone's color, religion, place of origin, or private life choices. This includes people from ANY place EXCEPT when I feel they are participating in the stealing of jobs from Americans.
And companies know this--so guess what? They are now giving these foreign workers ALL-AMERICAN names. I forgot to pay my Macy's bill for Jan that came in February and mailed a check finally about 10 days ago. :( Well, Friday evening I got a call from a gentleman who identified himself as "John Murray" and who informed me very courteously that my bill was overdue. Now, he clearly had an accent which indicated to me that his REAL name could ONLY be something like Sanjay Patel.
So, Mr Patel and I had this very polite conversation and I said I had paid the total balance due and I'd call my bank today to see if the check had come in and call back and let them know what I had found out. MInd you, he was plesant and competent in every way. Today, I called back and THIS time I got to speak to "Mr. Patel's cousin" who told me his name is name is David Andrews (also extremely courteous and helpful.) We conducted our business very pleasantly and before we hung up, I almost asked him, "So--DAVID--just how is the weather in Bombay today?"
Yes, I know--I am being hateful to feel this way about someone only doing his job (and doing it well) but I resent EVERY SINGLE JOB being sent from this country to other places--I dont give a damn if it is Ireland, India, Norway--the land of my ancestors--or Timbuktu--it is not right for Amemrican companies--HELLO, MACY'S--to hire people in other countries and take jobs from CITIZENS living HERE and paying taxes HERE and trying to raise their families HERE.
Please don't anyone here give me any crap about how many hundreds of thousands of jobs are available in this country if only people werent too lazy to take them. Just tell me--do any of YOU know someone able to raise their family on what they get paid for working at MacDonald's or the local gas station or pushing baskarts at the local supermarket? COULD YOU?? Lou Dobbs says these exported jobs formerly filled by well-trained Americans in the info-tech and electronics industries ARE NEVER COMING BACK! They are gone forever and will NOT be replaced by OTHER jobs with good pay and decent benefits.
When we lived in Michigan, we knew auto workers who worked faithfully for their companies all their lives, bought homes, had 2 decent cars, and even sent their kids to college before they retired and went fishing. There were factory workers in other industries who did the same. Not now. Many of their employers are moving their factories overseas and hiring people for much less. I understand that companies must make a profit,and I suppport this, but, if this keeps up--some day people here will no longer be able to buy ANYTHING made by "foreign workers" for these same "American" companies and--then what? Our foreign trade deficit is hideous and growing daily. When will we collapse economically totally?
In all fairness, I must mention that there are economic experts who also say that the outsourcing of jobs is only bad in the short run and that in 20 or 30 years there will be MANY other excellent jobs created by technology which will provide employment for US workers. but--what about those displaced in the meantime?
CRASH! (that's the sound of a very upset NightOwl falling off her soapbox. :( )
what an irony. I am a HUGE part of the very thing I complain about here. And so are 99% of you. Last week I went into Wal-Mart and found some adorable sleeveless summer T-shirts. Nice, beefy 100% cotton. Really well made and manufactured in the PHilipines. $5.00 apiece. I bought two. This is just an example of what I do all the time and so do we all. Without giving it a thought, we are saving money on things like this and rapidly screwing our country into the ground economically :o :Z
what to do?
An international company with 60,000 customers is setting up a Call Center in Turkey. I was invited to join them, maybe I should just go there and get a real job :):):)
I think the greed shown by the companies is going to bite them back ! Sooner or later ! Don't ask me how, why, when. All I know is when bounds of reason is bent too much in any direction, it bounces back with a fierce force.
How do you guys like bvuying American flags made in Communist China ? In Turkey, no one would even think about having them produced outside the country ! No one would buy them and there would be a big protest going on in no time.
Wow, I do how ever know people from both india, Turkey and Persia, there parents have Heavy accents, so of course they do also, they were born here... and were given American names.. Maybe to fit in better, possibly so they would not be made fun of, or harrased in school, jobs, on the phone, etc. I dont feel like "they" are taking "our" jobs. I do know that many people from some
countrys will works 2 or more jobs for much less pay then most would consider. I have found that alot of people would rather collect from the state then get a second job.Some of "us" will even have" Extras" like boats, campers, moter cycles, computers, etc. But no jobs,... Maybe if they saved a little or sold the "extras" they would have some money to fall back on if they lost there job...
Many people send money back to their home country, to help out their family this is great. Most of "us" give money to our family and then complain if we do not get it back!! (Crazy I think)..
Alot of people on this board are or have family from other countries, that is what makes everyone diffrent.. People say.."I am a red blooded American" Well that is fine but everyone has the same color blood regardless of where they come from, what accent they have, or what color skin they have....We are all they same on the inside and thats what counts....
My DH is a victim of this outsourcing but that's life so we're trying to deal with it. Years ago, he worked on a very large computer application here in USA. Then, the Am insurance co realized they could have the system maintained in India for much less $. My DH worked as a liason between the 2 groups. He considered himself lucky to have a job. Not sure if the Am company actually saved that much $ since there were "communication" problems and such that ate up time and time is $.
Then the Am co hired IBM to maintain the system here in the USA. My DH went with the project to IBM. All was well at that point but I will say that the American salaries were constantly climbing and maybe higher than justified. Like many companies at this time, IBM decided it had to cut ever escalating costs and downsized my DH and about 200 people out of his division. The system was moved to Ireland where labor is cheaper.
After a year out of work, my DH finally found another job, but not in IT. That lasted a year until another downsizing. So here he is again facing the same situation. I don't really blame the Am companies from trying to cut costs but they need to stand back and take another look at the situation and see if they can achieve their goals without screwing over the American worker.
A company in the Boston area recognized the situation for what it is and said, we can outsource for 1/2 the cost. How about we offer the same jobs to Americans and see if they'll do the work for the same pay? To their surprise, they had more applicants than they could handle. According to the news, they have been successful in hiring US workers to do these jobs that had been slated for overseas. The downside is the Am worker is working for 1/2 the pay but living in America where the cost of living is higher than overseas. But the alternative is the Am worker would be out of a job. In my DH's case, he just wants to do the work he's been trained to do. He, like the workers in Boston, is willing to work for less (and hopefully negotiate more vacation time :D ). He was lucky enough to get called back for a second interview this week so now he waits to see if the co is willing to take a chance on him. Although my DH said he'd be willing to work for the salary they were offering, they said they're leery. They're afraid he'll be dissatified in the long run. We'll see...
Diane
jpr--I'd LIKE to believe these people ARE living in America just like you say, but still have strong doubts. And anyone who reads the papers or "Time," Newsweek, or USNews and World Report or even listens to the news or watches CNN or other tv news, is aware in FULL detail that MANY THOUSANDS of people in India are now being employed as telephone soliciters for American credit companies, charities, banks, insurance companies, as well as branches of various STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OFFICES!.
Has anyone else here heard of this practice or am I just imagining things?
And I wonder how many members of this board have had 3 jobs at a time? And I wonder also (even for those ONLY holding down 2 jobs to make ends meet) how much time and energy does this leave for being a good father or mother, for attending PTO meetings and taking your kids to church and to choir practice or Little League.
Maybe this guy really WAS David Andrews and his kid plays sand-lot baseball with the kids at PS39 in the Bronx. It is not the color of his skin, his accent or his REAL name that bother me, but the fact that I KNOW he was calling me from another country and MY money is helping pay his salary.
Believe me, if all Americans could find decent jobs and there was an "employee shortage" for these companies, I'd be happy for them to get their workers wherever they could find good ones, including India.
There are good reasons or hiring Indians of course--they generally speak excellent English , they are usually smart and well-educated, and are courteous and THEY WORK CHEAP! (The same might be said of MANY American citizens out of work now. :()
Can't complain about jobs going overseas, its part of our capitalistic model. Jobs go to the lowest bidder, not any different than me shopping around for a camper. Do you really want it any other way? Years ago our electronic manufacturing jobs went overseas and remade Japan. Our iron industry went overseas, our computer industry was next, and now IT and service. No reason to spend $8000 to buy my camper from the guy next door when the guy down the street will sell it to me for $7,000 is there? If the jobs were here can you imagine what we would have to pay for goods and services? Of course we can always vote with your wallet and not buy from companies that have exported or outsourced jobs overseas.
Gas has been nearly $4.00 per gallon in Europe and Brazil for years, $2.00 is a bargain. In todays dollars gasoline was close to $1.80 per gallon in 1954 IIRC, our current prices aren't so bad.
If we want to see what happens when you close your economy look at the great success Russia or Brazil have been.
Well, Diplomat, I agree, every point you make has merit and like you, I DO NOT believe in isolationism. Look what it got us in the thirties.
As to the gas prices--YES, in all other countries only the rich drive large cars like most of us do here. We Americans have had cheap gas for so long and have been so contented to rely on foreign oil that we have lost touch with reality but it is about to catch up with us--at least at the pump.
Maybe I'd be more sympathetic toward these companies hiring cheap foreign workers if I EVER heard of a CEO pulling down 40 or 50 million or more say, "well, workers are taking pay cuts so maybe I ought to take one as well. "
But, yes, I remember hearing of a quote from an AFL president who said at contract negotiation time (strike time) "we are going to strip the fat off this companythis time around." Anyone who thinks "stripping" a company of its profits is a good idea is just setting up his own ruin and that's what happened eventually to the unions in many cases.
This IS truly a "global economy" now and we cannot hide our heads in the sand, but neither can we afford to bankrupt this country in the interests of corporate profit. there must be a middle-ground somewhere?
Diva,
I am standing here beside myself wondering what the bombay you are talking.
Hey, maybe the Mr. Patel was really WVCamper getting even with you! LOL
Jobs? Japan once apologized for consuming huge quantities of raw materials from the USA & converting them into finished products. Take for example the lumber industry. All we get is the price of the tree. They convert it into hundreds of usable items while employing their people at the same time. So, who cares? Just send all our natural resources out of the country for a few quick $$ and let others make millions. Bush said destructive forest fires could be prevented by cutting down all the trees in national parks. I'll bet there's plenty of foreign countries drooling over getting them.
And don't think for one minute that the government cares. One of the responsibilities of the Presidents office is foreign policy. When the President wants to give aid to a foreign country, of say $1 million, we don't just send money. Instead, the President tells Congress how much aid to give and Congress orders government contractors to open plants in the country & employ their people in manufacturing items our government needs. That's how the aid is given. Under Regan, jobs were sent out of the country hand over fist never to return and why, during the time that the most money was ever spent by our government, so many Americans became unemployed. On CSPAN one night, I watched the CEO of Colt being interrogated by Senators. Seems they wanted to know how the Koreans were able to produce carbon copies of our M16 rifles & sell them on the black market. The CEO responded, "Congress ordered us to open a plant in Korea, employ their people and build the M16's there. Once obtaining the blueprints and understanding of the manufacturing processes, they openend a plant 2 miles away & used our own technology to build them".
Yep, it's always us that shoots us in the foot! Bye jobs. :W
I know how you feel NightOwl...however, I also never, ever answer my phone unless my caller ID tells me whose calling!!! ;)
American companies should have to maintain their manufacturing in the US. When we are camping up in Maine I often pass by abandoned factory buildings, huge ones..some are turned in to apartments but I'm sure there are abandoned factories all across the country that could use these as manufacturing sources or these phone calling centers for companies. Employers should also have to be more "American" and pay decent wages to employees so they can afford to take the more "menial" jobs and still raise a family. But there is too the realization that there are many lazy people out there who would rather get the unemployment or welfare check than actually go out and get a job that may not be up to their "standards". I see it all the time at work. I get these people who want the doctor to write notes that they need their phone to stay on or electric, etc., yet they come in reaking of cigarette smoke, so you know they can afford to buy their butts and put gas in their cars to get down to the office to collect their notes and milk the electric and phone companies some more....sorry but I see that stuff and know these people and their lifestyle and it frosts me to no end. I realize of course there are people who do need assistance, I begrudge them nothing and would help them myself, but I see the real lazy bums that I know are capable of working and instead milk every phase of the system they can, rather than actually work!!!!!
What burns me up is in our town they tax businesses the same rate as our residential rate!!! They don't want to drive the malls out by possibly raising their taxes up higher!! We have so many shopping centers around here and they get away with millions in tax dollars while our local schools are scrounging around to try and come up with overrides to renovate and build. It's disgraceful. These big businesses and malls are by no means suffering and they absolutely should not be paying the same tax rate as a homeowner!!! Ugghhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://electrolux.com (//%22http://electrolux.com%22)
Take a look at that web site and see all the products the company makes that we trust and use everyday. I'm from West Michigan. The Electrolux co was a major employer in one of the small towns near here, almost everyone in Greenville worked there. Then they discovered that they could relocate to Mexico and pay the workers $1.57 an hour. They pulled out and left the whole community of Greenville high and dry. Thos folks are trying to find new jobs that will allow them to retire with some security, that will allow them to raise their families with some degree of comfort, pay for their homes and afford medical care. It boggles my mind that we have a policy that will allow businesses to look out for the profit margin at the expense of the productive and hardworking people who make this country so great.
I don't consider myself an Isolationist either, or a bigot, but I can't understand where the priorities of those who back big business could be. This country will be a wasteland if these things are allowed to continue.
T
BTW, do you think that those products will be sold any less expensively now that they can be made more cheaply? H*** NO!!!
Eventually, if products manufactured elsewhere are not sold more cheaply, then they won't be sold at all.
The coming economic disaster is the opposite of the prosperity that was triggered by Henry Ford about a century ago. Ford got prices down with the assembly line. But that was only half the equation. He also raised demand by paying his workers enough to be able to afford the product he was selling. The first assembly line workers were paid several times what a typical laborer of the day was paid.
Basic economics. Without customers, you are out of business. Without paying wages, you have no customers.
This is OK in the context of job exports if US business can sell products to those earning the wages overseas. But I think we're out of things to sell. They won't be buying cars from the US, they will be buying them from Korea. Their cell phones will come from Japan, Korea, or India. Their computers will come from China or Japan, and the software from India or Pakistan.
Their food will come from Brazil, their fuel from Saudi Arabia, their tires from Indonesia, and their tourism dollars will go to the Caribbean, Europe, or the South Pacific. A few will visit the Grand Canyon.
This is being driven by one thing. Profits at any cost. Make more than last quarter, regardless of what is necessary to do so. The result is management that can't (or won't) try to build a better company. Instead, it will try to raise stock prices even if it must wreck the company's long-term future to do so. Think Enron.
A true story: A struggling railroad hired a new CEO and told him "we want a profitable year, no matter what you have to do." He said he could do it, and went to work. He was quite successful, surprising even himself with his first year's profits. He collected his huge bonus and walked away. Of course, the railroad suddenly failed, because he made the profit by ripping up the tracks and selling the steel for scrap.
This is happening to America's businesses at an alarming rate. Make next quarter's numbers, no matter what you have to do. Since most companies most important asset is their employees, moving jobs overseas (particularly high-tech jobs) is ripping up the tracks to make a short-term profit. In the end, it leads to disaster.
The solution is remarkably simple. Require top management to put more than half of their personal investments in the company they manage, and require that they keep them there for at least three years after they leave. Even then, they should only be able to pull out in stages. Short term solutions that have serious long-term consequences will result in bankrupt managers.
I would also limit top management's compensation (all forms of compensation, including those not traditionally considered "income") to no more than 20 times the lowest paid employee, no matter where in the world that emplyee is. Many top managers would leave...only to find they face the same problem elsewhere. Companies would be forced to pay bottom-rung employees decent wages, and would have to pull back from outrageous compensation for top managers who do not deserve what they are paid. They simply absorb pay that was earned for the company by the employees way down the ladder who are actually doing the work.
Austin
AB, My 15 year old son just read your article and said "This AustinBoston guy knows what he is talking about".
I confess I agree with him !
Quote from: birolAB, My 15 year old son just read your article and said "This AustinBoston guy knows what he is talking about".
I confess I agree with him !
Birol, your son is very astute. :)
And AB, you make good sense, as usual. Thanks for explaining things most of us sense but cannot articulate with your clarity. :S :W
It's not only the jobs going overseas but the jobs that are being lost to illegal immigrants right here in this country. Sorry Walmart, I had to get that in.....remember the story about all the illegal folks working at Walmart? These folks move in and start getting "benefits" all at our expense. Yes, and the people who hire them are just as guilty, knowing full well they are paying these illegal immigrants. They might be contributing to our economy by buying things but what about the money they wire back "home" which leaves this country?
My former employer sent their first line customer support to India - it came back from there after they received too many complaints on understanding. It wasn't that the Indian support reps weren't competent - it was literally a language barrier - especially when heavy Southern accents met Indian English. Delays understanding each other when irate customers are standing in line, doesn't do well for merchant support or retention.
Another company I used to work for used to love to contract Indian workers. This is the 20/21st Century version of indentured servants. These companies would come in to India, pull the brightest Indian students, get them into American colleges and then use them as contracted employees.
What would happen is that 4-6 Indians would live together in a one or two bedroom place, they would be told to keep their nose clean or they would send them back to India. These folks would always drive a Honda (I can honestly say I have never seen a Indian contractor drive anything but a Honda), they would jam 4 or 5 folks into this car and go to work. They would be there - quiet as ye olde church mouse - and they would work. Eat next to nothing and take no breaks. Pretty much anything they earned went right back to India. They had these folks so terrified that they would be deported, it was hard to even talk to them. Salary numbers at the time bought 4 Indians for 1 American.
When I was laid off from the above company - along with 40,000 others at the same time - that year, the CEO made a bonus of $6.4 million because of his solid leadership. I'm sorry, but ANY company who lays off, should NOT be giving a bonus to any CEO, because THEY screwed up.
My perspective may be a little different, because I have been the 'foreigner' living overseas. Not always fun. I heard an absolute pipe dream the other day on the radio - some business owner was defending his choice to export his low paying positions to India & Pakistan because he wanted to increase his business share and hire back in American workers with the increased business. Sounds to me like he is wrestling with his conscience...
I think some of us are missing the point here.
In the military, we had a saying that always remember that the weapons we fire, the jets we fly and everything else was made by the lowest bidder.
Guys we're talking about business here. It's an employers job to run his business in the most efficient cost effective manner. Let's face it, with high US taxes, higher US paid wages, higher US utilities, it makes sense to move your operations to someplace where you can lower your overhead.
He's not in business to make employees happy. He's in business to make himself money. The point here is in the long run we're all numbers on a page. Either in a plus or a minus column. The bosses aren't making it a personal decision. The employees are making it personal, because they are angry and upset (Kind of understandable) but my point is, get over it. Life goes on and instead of wallowing in it caring a pail of spit & anger for foreign workers use this opportunity to grow as a person. Learn new skills - get a better job and go on with your life.
If you spent your entire career doing only your job and never took advantage of benefits like free or low cost education, then awe shucks on you. You've been living your life with blinders on because you think your company owes you anything beyond your paycheck. Our loyalty should be to our own bottom line, because in the end that's all we have.
I'm sorry this all sounds harsh, but we really need to blame ourselves here if we loose our job and we're not ready for it. A simple idea to live by is plan for the worst, but hope for the best.
Just an FYI about me. I'm not an Employer. I'm an employee, but my company pays up to $5500/year for education. Guess what I'm doing? Not sitting on my laurels waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Regards,
Bob Jones
Hi All,
If you are interrested in buying American, you might be interrested in this site.
http://www.hireamerica.us/companies.php (//%22http://www.hireamerica.us/companies.php%22)
Quote from: NightOwlMaybe I'd be more sympathetic toward these companies hiring cheap foreign workers if I EVER heard of a CEO pulling down 40 or 50 million or more say, "well, workers are taking pay cuts so maybe I ought to take one as well. "
I have seen this happen. In 2002 when Ford hit a wall and had to cut bonuses and other benefits to its hourly and salaried workforce, CEO Bill Ford cut his pay to $1 with no bonus and option awards. He also eliminated merit increases, bonuses and stock options to the top level management in the company (middle management on up). In 2003, he did the same thing although economics improved and Ford made a profit. In 2004, he recieved a stock option award for profits earned in 2003 of about $1.5M. He is setting up a tuition fund for the children of Ford employees with that money. Ford is paying bonuses and stock options to managment this year.
I believe Lee Iacoccia did a similar thing in the 80's when Chrysler was in the tank.
You can argue that these people had all the money they will ever need and this was a token gesture but you could probably say that for all Fortune 500 CEOs.
Anyway, there are instances where CEOs take pay cuts in bad times. Also remember most compensation you see in the media regarding CEOs is largely in the form of stock options that can only be realiized 3-10 years down the road. If the company stock goes down, all that $50-$60M salaries you see go down with it. The Internet bust a few years ago turned alot of would be multi-millionaires into paupers.
I think you need to "re-think" & "re-read" what you typed ....
If, everyone do not take responsibility to make sure their country does prosper guess who will suffer at the end .....
As for sitting on our behinds and not taking advantage of oppotunities, try taking advantage of training opportunities when your job keeps you in another country 5 days a week where you work from 7 am till 12 am because you deal with a third country with a 14 hour time difference.
Yeah, a little bit too harsh ! Not all of us are waiting for a handout and just waiting to be pampered.
Not ready for it ? I don't know, I lost my job 2.5 years ago, and didn't turn to alcohol or drugs, didn't get a divorce, managed to purchase a small house, and still surviving. Will you be able to do the same when it hits you ? Are you sure ?
Sometime a bigger perspective in life is all we need. Not everything we saw until now is all there is to it.
Quote from: rajones315I think some of us are missing the point here.
In the military, we had a saying that always remember that the weapons we fire, the jets we fly and everything else was made by the lowest bidder.
Guys we're talking about business here. It's an employers job to run his business in the most efficient cost effective manner. Let's face it, with high US taxes, higher US paid wages, higher US utilities, it makes sense to move your operations to someplace where you can lower your overhead.
He's not in business to make employees happy. He's in business to make himself money. The point here is in the long run we're all numbers on a page. Either in a plus or a minus column. The bosses aren't making it a personal decision. The employees are making it personal, because they are angry and upset (Kind of understandable) but my point is, get over it. Life goes on and instead of wallowing in it caring a pail of spit & anger for foreign workers use this opportunity to grow as a person. Learn new skills - get a better job and go on with your life.
If you spent your entire career doing only your job and never took advantage of benefits like free or low cost education, then awe shucks on you. You've been living your life with blinders on because you think your company owes you anything beyond your paycheck. Our loyalty should be to our own bottom line, because in the end that's all we have.
I'm sorry this all sounds harsh, but we really need to blame ourselves here if we loose our job and we're not ready for it. A simple idea to live by is plan for the worst, but hope for the best.
Just an FYI about me. I'm not an Employer. I'm an employee, but my company pays up to $5500/year for education. Guess what I'm doing? Not sitting on my laurels waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Regards,
Bob Jones
I remember seeing our CEO caching in his stock options worth 165 million dollars while I was flying to Cleveland one morning. The shares were 126 bucks a piece. I told myself, this is not good !!!! Yeah he later stepped down and got his pension and bonus and all, after shares had hit 5 bucks and 60,000 people were laid off ! I have no idea why I got laid off while he got his pension, and kept his bonus and stock options ! Obviously I was single handedly responsible for Nortel Networks failure :Z :J
Quote from: Jim in MichiganI have seen this happen. In 2002 when Ford hit a wall and had to cut bonuses and other benefits to its hourly and salaried workforce, CEO Bill Ford cut his pay to $1 with no bonus and option awards. He also eliminated merit increases, bonuses and stock options to the top level management in the company (middle management on up). In 2003, he did the same thing although economics improved and Ford made a profit. In 2004, he recieved a stock option award for profits earned in 2003 of about $1.5M. He is setting up a tuition fund for the children of Ford employees with that money. Ford is paying bonuses and stock options to managment this year.
I believe Lee Iacoccia did a similar thing in the 80's when Chrysler was in the tank.
You can argue that these people had all the money they will ever need and this was a token gesture but you could probably say that for all Fortune 500 CEOs.
Anyway, there are instances where CEOs take pay cuts in bad times. Also remember most compensation you see in the media regarding CEOs is largely in the form of stock options that can only be realiized 3-10 years down the road. If the company stock goes down, all that $50-$60M salaries you see go down with it. The Internet bust a few years ago turned alot of would be multi-millionaires into paupers.
The media never reports this right. They report someone cashed in $165M in stock options. What they don't report is the option price. If the stock was at 126 then he had roughly accumulated 1.3M options that he could cash in over the years at various prices. Usually options are set up so that the person receiving them has between 3-10 years to exercise their options. As a simple example say all of his options were set at $100 per share, he would receive (126-100)*1.3M = $34M. Hefty sums I know but not $165M. If he had 1.3M options at a stock price of 127 then they would be worthless at 126. Thats how boards try to make CEOs see the long term picture for the company. If the CEO was artificially driving up the stock prices to get a high option payoff at the detriment to the future then shame on the board for not firing him sooner.
As for pensions and bonuses, I can't speak for the bonus but he earned his pension and probably paid into it and was deserving of it, just like you were when you were laid off. If I quit or am laid off from my company today, I will still get a pension from them when I retire.
Of course you have a point, the amount he has to pay to purchase the stock options to the company is never mentioned. Not to be vindictive, but, we were getting our stock options, and could exercise them after ten years, so I am assuming he had to do the same (I know not necessearily), stock options for Nortel were no where near that amount in 1991 ... So he still got a hefty sum :)
You yankee friends actually have a class action (I think) law suit against him for not informing the public about the financial situation of company or misleading the public or something like that. All the Canadians who lost all their savings should join that law suit or get their own going !.
Me, I had nothing invested yet, lost about 3,000+ stock options worthless at 110+ dollars each ..... Should have bought some stock when the shares went down to .65 cents ! Just didn't have the money :(
Quote from: Jim in MichiganThe media never reports this right. They report someone cashed in $165M in stock options. What they don't report is the option price. If the stock was at 126 then he had roughly accumulated 1.3M options that he could cash in over the years at various prices. Usually options are set up so that the person receiving them has between 3-10 years to exercise their options. As a simple example say all of his options were set at $100 per share, he would receive (126-100)*1.3M = $34M. Hefty sums I know but not $165M. If he had 1.3M options at a stock price of 127 then they would be worthless at 126. Thats how boards try to make CEOs see the long term picture for the company. If the CEO was artificially driving up the stock prices to get a high option payoff at the detriment to the future then shame on the board for not firing him sooner.
As for pensions and bonuses, I can't speak for the bonus but he earned his pension and probably paid into it and was deserving of it, just like you were when you were laid off. If I quit or am laid off from my company today, I will still get a pension from them when I retire.
...when people start railing on the CEOs of companies when they hear about these ridiculous salaries and begin calling them all a bunch of money mongering crooks. The media just feeds off of that frenzy and it is all just bogus. The CEOs are employed by the company just like everyone else, they just have the most power to influence things. If they do illegal things such as Enron or Martha Stewart then they should be found out and punished appropriately. Otherwise, blame the nameless, faceless board of directors who hires the CEO and sets compensation for not only the CEO but everyone. They are elected by the shareholders who in the end have no one to blame but themselves when everything goes wrong.
So many people think CEOs are like owners and take whatever money they want out of the company when in fact everything they are paid and everything they do is accountable to the board and ultimately the shareholders.
I was not going to weigh in on this thread as I have some really strong opinions on this subject and some of the responses, but I couldn't resist!
First of all, Greed is greed, whether you are the employer or the employee! CEO's don't need to make millions, (of course neither do those sports figures we ALL subsidize, or those musicians or actors & actresses!) but employees and their unions shouldn't be constantly demanding more from companies that are being drained by competition.
Secondly, I seriously doubt that all our jobs were ONLY exported during the Regan and Bush years. I believe NAFTA was done during Clinton. I also believe that the restructuring of Bonds and debt done during the Clinton years to make really good SHORT term paybacks at the expense of LONG term is now biting us in the butt!
We, as consumers put price first, hence the Walmarting and Home Depoting of America. Why shouldn't companies do the same? We drive past our locally owned business because we percieve that Walmart has lower prices. However the local business keeps its' profits in the community, usually supplies at least some affordable health care to its employees, and pays far more in local taxes simply because they didn't negotiate a propert tax abatement just to set up business in your communities. Walmart reportedly offers Health care to its full time employees but then keeps their hours at 32 to 35 per week (whatever the legal amount is for full time in that state) so that the employees can't afford their share of the insurance!
Finally, do you know what businesses employe the vast majority of Americans? Small Business! Those with under 500 employees. However, small businesses have to pay too when people get it into their heads that all business owners are rich and should be taxed to death!
I am a Controller and Business Manager for a 4 location Ace Hardware & Building Materials and a Kitchen Design Store. I have never seen an employee laid off except when we wanted to fire them but didn't want to cause them the trauma that firing brings to a person. We have gone through plenty of downturns in the years I've been with the company. In those downturns it was the CEO and the President who took pay cuts. They even loaned the business money out of their pension plans, insurances, etc so that we could meet payrolls. They have never asked a manager or employee to take a pay cut. AND I don't think that they are unique! I bet 95% of the businesses are that way. It's the 5% that includes Enron, Worldcom, Adelphi, etc that twist everyone's mind into thinking that all business owners, CEO's or Presidents are bad!
I feel very badly for the people who have lost their jobs. Here in Vermont, we have job retraining in place at the state level. Does it work? I don't know. If you can believe the news and other media (which I usually doubt!) they say it works wonderfully. I'll form my own opinion after I've talked with someone who has gone through it! It truly has become a global economy and we are in the process of finding out where we fit in. I believe we will find out.
Okay, off my rant now, back to dreams of camping!!!
Quote from: rajones315I think some of us are missing the point here.
In the military, we had a saying that always remember that the weapons we fire, the jets we fly and everything else was made by the lowest bidder.
Guys we're talking about business here. It's an employers job to run his business in the most efficient cost effective manner. Let's face it, with high US taxes, higher US paid wages, higher US utilities, it makes sense to move your operations to someplace where you can lower your overhead.
He's not in business to make employees happy. He's in business to make himself money. The point here is in the long run we're all numbers on a page. Either in a plus or a minus column. The bosses aren't making it a personal decision. The employees are making it personal, because they are angry and upset (Kind of understandable) but my point is, get over it. Life goes on and instead of wallowing in it caring a pail of spit & anger for foreign workers use this opportunity to grow as a person. Learn new skills - get a better job and go on with your life.
If you spent your entire career doing only your job and never took advantage of benefits like free or low cost education, then awe shucks on you. You've been living your life with blinders on because you think your company owes you anything beyond your paycheck. Our loyalty should be to our own bottom line, because in the end that's all we have.
I'm sorry this all sounds harsh, but we really need to blame ourselves here if we loose our job and we're not ready for it. A simple idea to live by is plan for the worst, but hope for the best.
Just an FYI about me. I'm not an Employer. I'm an employee, but my company pays up to $5500/year for education. Guess what I'm doing? Not sitting on my laurels waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Regards,
Bob Jones
This is an interesting point of view, but it is not borne out in fact. There is a strong correlation between a company's use of US labor and it's long-term profitability. It is easy to save a quick buck by shipping labor overseas, but it is impossible to build a better company that way. Building a better business is what management is supposed to be about. Lately, it's about cutting costs at all costs.
Businesses that use all US labor (or mostly US labor) for 5 years running are consistently more profitable than those who shipped the work overseas 5 or more years ago, I believe on the order of 2-to-1. The reason is that they view and treat their workers (especially skilled workers, which nearly all of us are) as their greatest asset, not their cheapest commodity.
If it were a matter of US wages competing with foreign wages, then the US workers should be given the chance to compete. But they aren't. One day, management walks in, says your job is going to Blabberstan and your last day is on the 31st. End of story.
Faced with that, very few Americans would not be willing to make consessions. Many others would be willing to do what they could to buy out the company. But those are not options that are presented, because even though they would be very productive in the long run, nobody in management wants to wait past the next quarterly statement.
Austin
Funny thing about all this is we are the one's buying all this off shore junk. Every time we go to Walmart. We more or less approve!
well, Whitestar, I am SO GLAD you agree with us (see some of th earlier comments about the matter of Americans buying FOREIGN MADE products in our previous posts)
But whether members here agree with all (or ANY) of the previous remarks in this thread, at least people are THINKING about these things!
Nothing is wrong buying stuff made in other countries (generally speaking) , but something is wrong when American (Canadian) companies get things manufactured at 1/3 the cost in another country, lay off almost all of their employees, and expect to sell the cheaply produced (I am not implying less quality, that is something I won't discuss) item at the sameold high price which used to cost a lot higher to produce, to the people they laid off !
This is profiting at the cost of people of this country, and only produces a few rich people ...........
This is the way I see it ... yeah I guess capitalism works this way ..... And when people are too poor to buy the stuff at inflated prices, they will bring the the prices down to earth ... which will only allow them to make the same old profit they used to make when they employed their own people. Now they have to deal with importing the stuff they produced abroad, and the cost of dealing with foreign employees and import/transportation becomes an issue. And do they bring the jobs back ? After all it is cost cutting at any cost, and transportation and and customs etc will surely be the biggest part of the cost.
Maybe this is just the way things are .... Whatever works in the short term ....
birol,
I agree with you in most parts, one problem, mostly all of the other countries governments provide funding to there industries or some sort of kick back. An industry that is partly funded by government can sell good quality products at a lot lower cost than the US. One that really hurts us is the gouging the customer on the price of a product. For example, take a product that sells for 25 dollars in one store and you find in another for $12.50. You know they have to make a profit, but do they have to make a killing? So my thought is that it starts with us. If don't buy the products of companies that are allowing this to happen it may stop.
Quote from: birolNothing is wrong buying stuff made in other countries (generally speaking) , but something is wrong when American (Canadian) companies get things manufactured at 1/3 the cost in another country, lay off almost all of their employees, and expect to sell the cheaply produced (I am not implying less quality, that is something I won't discuss) item at the sameold high price which used to cost a lot higher to produce, to the people they laid off !
This is profiting at the cost of people of this country, and only produces a few rich people ...........
This is the way I see it ... yeah I guess capitalism works this way ..... And when people are too poor to buy the stuff at inflated prices, they will bring the the prices down to earth ... which will only allow them to make the same old profit they used to make when they employed their own people. Now they have to deal with importing the stuff they produced abroad, and the cost of dealing with foreign employees and import/transportation becomes an issue. And do they bring the jobs back ? After all it is cost cutting at any cost, and transportation and and customs etc will surely be the biggest part of the cost.
Maybe this is just the way things are .... Whatever works in the short term ....