I hate to make this a "Dear Abbey" letter, but I need help!
My DH and I have been close friends with this woman for 12 years. Out of those twelve years she was single for the first 10. She became really good friends with both my husband and I. She would go snowmobiling with my husband, go shopping or skiing with me or go out with all of us. She got us into camping and got us hooked on pop-ups when we borrowed her older pop-up camper for a vacation. She's a VERY generous and fun friend.
In the last two years, she has found a significant other (SO) and they now live together. My friend is always trying to schedule camping trips with us. Here's the problem... we don't like her SO. That person is harsh, rude and says inappropriate things -- especially since that person really doesn't know either my husband or I very well. The SO seems to be jealous of us because we've know our friend longer. My friend is in the process of buying a hybrid trailer and since I recently did all the research to buy our own, she wanted my input on things. She usually asks our opinion on any major purchase, but it's more like chatting amongst friends, not "what should I do?". My friend's SO seems to resent that my friend asks me for advice on things.
My friend was "alone" for so many years. She was a very independent person and would not allow ANYONE to boss her around. We want our friend to be happy, but she's NOT the same person she used to be. Her SO tells her what she can and can't do all the time and even tags along when my friend and I go out for a girl's night out.
DH and I have tried just sucking it up and doing things together, but each time, we find we like that person less and less. We camped with them once last year, but since then, we've been able to avoid any trips with them due to "scheduling" conflicts.
HOW do you tell a close friend that you don't want to do things with her and her SO, let alone camp together for an ENTIRE weekend without loosing the friendship altogether!?
JMHO, you can't win getting involved. At this point anything you say will be an attack on the SO.
If she is in fact the "independent person" you describe, she will discover the problems on her own.
boy, my brain is at a standstill over a solution to this this. Frankly, I think Tim has hit accurately on the situaltion you are in when he says you cant win if you get involved at all. To that, I would add, YOU CANT WIN--PERIOD! Or, at least you cant as long as your friend feels she must keep this particular SO.
The truth is, he sounds like a truly obnoxious person and I suspect he is deliberately trying to destroy your friendship with your friend.
A few questions for you to consider about your friend and her SO:
!. Is she so dense that she does not see what a jerk this guy is?
2. Even if she guesses the truth about him, is (was) she so DESPERATELY
LONELY that she cannot BEAR to face the facts about what a jerk this guy is
and thus break off with him?
3. Does he treat her so wonderfully that she cannot see what a jerk he is?
4. Do you know if others find him equally unpleasant?
5. Is your friend blind to the fact that this person is ruining your friendship?
5a. If so, why? Is she really THAT dense?
5b. If she is dense, is it on purpose? (see 2 and 3 above)
6. Surely she has heard him be unpleasant and arguementative to you--does she really expect you to continue to put up with this? If she does, then
perhaps she is not as good a friend as you have thought.
My guess is that there is no easy answer and you are going to lose her friendship. You can extend things a bit longer by always being "busy" but eventually she will want to know why you are avoiding them. and you are going to have to admit how you feel about him (But, honestly, I really believe she must at least GUESS something is wrong.)
Another alternative (although a difficult one) is just to say that you and hubby have tried but you feel you just dont "have a lot in common" with this SO although you completely understand her love for him and so you wonder if now and then you and she might be able to do things together JUST THE TWO OF YOU (sorry, your DH is going to have to butt out if you do this, otherwise it wouldnt work at all) If she gets in a huff and says "Love me, love my guy, our friendship is over" (and she may well do this) tell her you love her and you will always be her friend and will be waiting for her whenever she wants to pick up where you left off.
You say that even when you and your friend try to do things together, HE tags along. If he continues to insist on doing this and he is very rude and obnoxious to YOU and she expects you to tolerate this crap, then something is VERY wrong with her and you need to stop making excuses for her because SHE is also treating you badly by extension.
To continue to tolerate this behaviour is called "ennabling" and it doesnt matter who is doing the ennabling--it is just WRONG to encourage this idiot to behave this way--he is doing it, he KNOWS it, and he is never called to account for it. If she cannot require courtesy from him toward others who are dear to her, she also will soon be his victim if she is not already being mistreated. If you cannot bring yourself to ask for decent treatment from them BOTH it looks like you just have to put up with it and consider it the cost of being her loyal friend.
But my guess is that this moron will eventually reveal his true self to her at a time when she is FINALLY WILLING to see him as he is. After being alone all these years she is probably terrified of being alone again, but someday she may wake up and discover that there are much worse things than being alone--and spending one's life with a jerk is certainly one of those!
You say she is no longer the same free and independent spirit she was--it sounds like he is very controlling. If this is true, he will do it now with her friendships--when he gets rid of her friends, he will start on other things and there will come a time when, like all victims of emotional abuse, she will no longer be able to please (AND APPEASE) him in any way. It doesnt sound like he loves HER--it sounds like he LOVES having someone under his thumb.
I wish you good luck. I have never been in this EXACT situation although one time I did have to tell my former college room mate that she and I would have to socialize alone because my DH did not have any interests in common with her DH. Fortunately, she and I are still good friends because she understood. (But her husband was not rude or obnoxious or stupid--he was just the most boring person DH and I have ever met and my DH just said, "count me out the next time you want to get together with them. I simply cant stand him") Eventually, Roomie got bored with him too, and he became her ex and then she found a dear and unboring person to marry. We are still good friends and always have been but I really was very anxious when I had to tell her the bit about " OUR GUYS not having anything in common"
Can you get out of it easier by just telling there is a conflict in the dates she has picked...and/or you and hubby have realized you need to have some alone time together as you've been stressing out with work, life or whatever, so some trips you will be taking solo to keep that spark going!! That way she'll think you're having a problem instead and won't focus on the fact you can't stand her SO. Hopefully as a friend she'll respect your need for some alone time and you haven't hurt her feelings in the process.
Quote from: CamperrooCan you get out of it easier by just telling there is a conflict in the dates she has picked...and/or you and hubby have realized you need to have some alone time together as you've been stressing out with work, life or whatever, so some trips you will be taking solo to keep that spark going!! That way she'll think you're having a problem instead and won't focus on the fact you can't stand her SO. Hopefully as a friend she'll respect your need for some alone time and you haven't hurt her feelings in the process.
Camperoo, you are right--this will take care of it in the short run if that is what they want. I thought it sounded like they had tried similar excuses--excuses only work a limited number of times and when they run out of excuses, they are still stuck with the original problem.
AVOIDANCE is just a temporary fix and wont solve things in any permanent way--it will only put the day of reckoning off. Apparently this SO insists on being around whenever cb and her DH spend time with this friend. Meanwhile this guy is continuing to behave like a moron when cb & DH are around and eventually this will put an end to their friendship with HER..which, unfortunately is what he seems to want
I think what I was trying to convey is that if she is such a good friend she will realize her friend is trying to gracefully get out of a situation they no longer enjoy because of the SO and will back down accordingly by taking the polite hint without having to feel embarrassed. But if it were me and this SO drove me that nuts, I'm afraid I'd just have to tell my friend the way it was for me and I hate to hurt her feelings but I couldn't continue the friendship anyway if I had to continue watching this SO bring her down and her allowing it to happen. I also have a problem that the person continually plans herself into these camping trips anyway...maybe she does need a face to face thing if she's really is clueless to how everyone feels.
It's too bad, but all friendships have their ups and downs. Maybe the friends will cool off a bit but in the meantime the other one will come to realize with the friendship being at odds that SO is a PIA. If not, then that's her choice but the other couple shouldn't have to suffer and if gentle diplomacy doesn't work...then in your face is going to have to!!
Quote from: CamperrooI think what I was trying to convey is that if she is such a good friend she will realize her friend is trying to gracefully get out of a situation they no longer enjoy because of the SO and will back down accordingly by taking the polite hint without having to feel embarrassed. But if it were me and this SO drove me that nuts, I'm afraid I'd just have to tell my friend the way it was for me and I hate to hurt her feelings but I couldn't continue the friendship anyway if I had to continue watching this SO bring her down and her allowing it to happen. I also have a problem that the person continually plans herself into these camping trips anyway...maybe she does need a face to face thing if she's really is clueless to how everyone feels.
It's too bad, but all friendships have their ups and downs. Maybe the friends will cool off a bit but in the meantime the other one will come to realize with the friendship being at odds that SO is a PIA. If not, then that's her choice but the other couple shouldn't have to suffer and if gentle diplomacy doesn't work...then in your face is going to have to!!
Camperoo, well put, and yes I agree with everything you say here.
I sure hope that our viewpoints and ruminations will help campingboaters in her search for solutions because this is a really tought spot to be in!
If a SO other changed a friend which was dear to me to such a degree, I would have no problems telling him/her that the SO is a control freak and needs to be dealt with (read: dumped) for the benefit of my friend.
I would not consider keeping quiet and let my friend suffer, that would mean that I don't care about him/her. It would be my duty to warn him/her to the best of my abilities and suffer the consequences. Hopefully the friendship would resume one day when the harmful relationship is somehow terminated if that is the consequence of being upfront about things.
I can't stand people being harmed and me doing nothing about it. Tell your friend exactly how she has changed and and gently direct her to obtain some information which will hopefully make her realize the situation she is in.
Too blunt, yes, bad ? No. that's me :)
Quote from: birolIf a SO other changed a friend which was dear to me to such a degree, I would have no problems telling him/her that the SO is a control freak and needs to be dealt with (read: dumped) for the benefit of my friend.
I would not consider keeping quiet and let my friend suffer, that would mean that I don't care about him/her. It would be my duty to warn him/her to the best of my abilities and suffer the consequences. Hopefully the friendship would resume one day when the harmful relationship is somehow terminated if that is the consequence of being upfront about things.
I can't stand people being harmed and me doing nothing about it. Tell your friend exactly how she has changed and and gently direct her to obtain some information which will hopefully make her realize the situation she is in.
Too blunt, yes, bad ? No. that's me :)
But I'm not sure the friend is suffering herself, it is a friendship that is suffering.
It is unfortunate that sometimes friendships and family relationships suffer when a new SO/DW/DH enters the scene. Only the person involved can decide which relationship they want to keep.
Again, JMHO
Tim,
You have a valid point, and I thought long and hard before posting what I posted. If I campingboaters hadn't included the statements below, I would simply agree with your post and others and would not post at all. But, based on what is stated below, their friend is suffering, and I bet this is what is really disturbing them, their dislike of the SO is most probably secondary to that.
I agree with you that, people make choices and keep the relationships which they value more .....
Quote from: campingboatersShe was a very independent person and would not allow ANYONE to boss her around. We want our friend to be happy, but she's NOT the same person she used to be. Her SO tells her what she can and can't do all the time and even tags along when my friend and I go out for a girl's night out.
Well, personally I'm not a person to mince words. I'd wait for an opportunity to talk to the freind alone, and let her know point blank what I think of the SO, how I feel about being around him, and the fact that I don't care for the way he treats her. To that end I'd let her know she is always more than welcome to share a camp site or camping trip with me at any time --- alone, but I'd rather not be in his company.
I'm not saying this is right for you, but like I said, I don't mince words. this is how I'd handle it. Then stand back and see what direction the whole thing takes.
Gotta say that I agree with Birol and Gone Camping. If I thought enough of my friend to worry about this, then I feel that it would be my duty to do the right thing and let me friend know that I care enough to worry, and why. If she doesn't see a problem, then I would have to butt out (even if it means not seeing my friend anymore), but at least I would do her the courtesy of saying what I see and feel. My experience with people like this SO is that they are control freaks who gradually get worse, and possibly become abusive. The friend needs a heads-up on this.
T
;)
IT'S FUNNY, BUT THE SAME THING HAPPEN TO ME, NOT LONG AGO, AND I HAD A HEART TO HEART WITH MY FRIEND. I EXPLAINED I "LOVED HER DEARLY", BUT THAT HER NEW FOUND LOVE, THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT HIM, THAT I JUST DIDN'T FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH, AND I DON'T WANT TO BLOW OUR FRIENDSHIP NOR HER RELATIONSHIP, BUT I FEEL THAT FOR RIGHT NOW ITS BEST WE KEEP OUR VISITS SHORT WHEN HE IS INCLUDED, AND THAT WE COULD SPEAK MORE ON THE PHONE, AND E-MAILS IF IT WOULD BE OK! SHE WAS SURPISED AND ASKED WHAT IT WAS ABOUT HIM I DIDN'T LIKE, AND I JUST TOLD HER I WAS JUST NOT COMFORTABLE IN HIS PRESENCE, AND I WASN'T REALLY SURE, (WHICH WAS A LIE, BUT I DIDN'T WANT TO BLOW OUR FRIENDSHIP OVER HIS ACTIONS)
Quote from: wiininkweGotta say that I agree with Birol and Gone Camping. If I thought enough of my friend to worry about this, then I feel that it would be my duty to do the right thing and let me friend know that I care enough to worry, and why. If she doesn't see a problem, then I would have to butt out (even if it means not seeing my friend anymore), but at least I would do her the courtesy of saying what I see and feel. My experience with people like this SO is that they are control freaks who gradually get worse, and possibly become abusive. The friend needs a heads-up on this.
T
;)
As I was reading this, I was thinking the same as birol and gone camping also. If you were friends for so long, sounds like a time to have a one-on-one private lunch. Explain you feelings and apologize about the lack of camping trips. I know too well that love is blind and sounds like the friend is just too in love and doesn't see the effects of the friendship. Hopefully the friend will see the pain you are going through; if not, at least you tried and just be there for her when she needs it.
Thank you all so much for replying.
I have to say, I don't think my friend minds being told what to do by her SO. I think she just loves having someone to share her life. I don't think the SO treats her badly in general or I truly think my friend would not tolerate it.
I think my friend is aware that her SO doesn't care for me and DH. One night when my friend asked me to go look at a camper with her, I asked if her SO was OK with me kinda "butting in". She told me she had a talk with her SO -- something about keeping her mouth shut. I don't remember her exact words, but that was the impression that I got.
I think my (personal) bigger problem is I HATE conflict. I'm horrible at it and no matter how much I plan on what I want to say, I always lose it and say the wrong thing. I think I'm going to avoid these situations for a little while longer and see if my friend gets the hint. Seems she already knows something is not quite right.
Ooops, Campingboaters, I think--by reading between the lines where you have described "SO" and referred to SO ("that person", etc.) that I now see where some of the problem lies and it is a bit more complicated than we first realized, but in a different way--and I think I now understand why the SO wants to tag along when it is just "girl time."
And I think I NOW also understand why your friend is not being more pro-active in seeing what is going on. If I am right, you are dealing with a special kind of jealousy of you on the SO's part and also with this person's dislike (discomfort with )and rudeness of your DH. I have two sets of friends in similar liviing situations and although we all get along well, it would be a tough thing to handle if one half of the couple disliked DH or me.
I think the best thing is to just be open with your friend. My guess is that given the length and loyalty of your friendship and her longtime independence she will tell her SO in a tactful way to "suck it up and accept them--I'm not giving up my friendship with cb and her DH."
I am sure your friend knows that REAL FRIENDS are hard to find and can last a lifetime--and she probably also knows that SO's sometimes change their minds and leave.
Good luck--it's going to be tricky, but I think it will work out OK if you just have an open talk with her like we've recommended, and be sure to let her know that you realize WHY her SO is having a hard time accepting you and DH and that there is nothing to fear from EITHER of you in their relationship.
I am so glad I am not the only one who confused the sex of the SO :) This changes quite a lot of things, but still, if the "She" SO other is still controlling and stuff, a heart to heart talk is needed with the friend.
Hope it works out at the end ....
I have to say, I didn't really want to bring this issue up and was even trying to skirt the issue so as not to offend anyone, but I'm kinda glad you guys got it. I wasn't even completely sure if that was part of the issue or not. Other friends of mine have pointed out that it might be jealousy on the SO's part and that I was oblivious.
My friend had not told me of her "lifestyle" until this SO came into her life two years ago, but I suspected it all along. I never pushed the issue with her to tell me because it never mattered to me, but the fact that she never told me meant she was uncomfortable with it herself. Of course, she's never told me LOADS of things, but we remain friends because those "things" don't matter to me. I NEVER judge ANYONE.
Anyway, I just want her to be happy, but is her happiness more important than our feelings when it comes to hanging out with them? I'm afraid that talking to my friend about us not liking her SO will make it seem like I'm not comfortable with her lifestyle and THAT is so far from the truth.
Is this sounding more and more like a Dear Abbey letter NOW!? :eek:
Campingboaters, I know you were seeking ideas for this problem and trying at the same time to keep from stirring up any negative reactions based on people's personal feelings about things like this and I admire you for that. (BTW, we share a lot of the same feelings about this whole matter.)
Have you thought of telling your friend that you realize HER FRIEND is uncomfortable with you and DH and feel SHE (SO) dislikes or distrusts the two of you? So, rather than ruin their relationship you will bow out of the picture gracefully if your friend would like, and with no hard feelings toward anyone on your part, but that you cannot go on being treated in this unfriendly and disrespectful way by her SO.
I also have a dear friend of 10 years (divorced but good friends with her ex) who was very "discrete" about her personal life at first. By the time I figured it out, I realized she was a truly good person and this discovery made no difference to me in my feelings for her. She is a wonderful gardenr and gifted artist, as well, and she and my DH share many common interests (they constantly trade plants & gardening advice, etc.) so they have become good friends also.
I deleted my comment as I feel this can get into a very controversial topic....
Basically the situation would not bother me one way or the other.
Wow, I am away a little while and something really serious comes up. This is how I would deal with the situation. One couse I took a long time ago was in Assertiveness Training and it's probably one of the best courses I ever took in dealing with all kinds of situations. The major thing that is taught is to first determine who owns the problem. In this situation, it sounds like the SO is the real owner of the problem by being "harsh, rude and saying inappropriate things." However by allowing her to continue this behavior toward you or DH, then you are being too nice and it has become your problem and you have shied away from including your friend of 12 years in your activities. To truly assert yourself, you look for solutions to this problem and affirm to yourself that you will not allow this SO to continue to be harsh, rude and say inappropriate things. It sounds like you have done that and I would really speak up in front of the friend if this significant other says stuff in front of you again that is rude and disrespectful..like I don't understand your last remark, what do you mean? By putting the SO on the spot, it will turn attention to the SO as having a problem. I agree with the others that you should do "lunch" with your friend aand have the heart to heart talk, owning up to this difficult situation. Not addressing these feelings will only make matters worse because the issue is being avoided continually. It isn't going to go away. Do let your friend know that you value her friendship, you want her to be happy and that you have known her for a long time. Put the ball in the other court where it belongs and don't continue to feel uncomfortable with this situation. You may find that your friend also has some feelings that need to come out in the open, too, and you may find that she will respect you all the more for coming to her and telling her how you feel. Good luck and keep us posted.
I'm with nightowl and birol....
be up front and say that you and your hubby really don't enjoy her SO's company. (and "by the way, dear, we don't like watching the way he treats you. Just remember, we'll always be here for you.")
If she was single for THAT long (and people have to be real careful nowadays <>), she may be getting something really pleasant out of this relationship.
If he's a real control freak, you could give her a copy of Melody Moodie's "Codependent No More."
kinda sorta "been there...done that" (in my case with someone who gets aggravated easily and isn't the best company around other people for extended periods)
maybe she'll reach the "it was fun while it lasted" stage
Quote from: B-flatWow, I am away a little while and something really serious comes up. This is how I would deal with the situation. One couse I took a long time ago was in Assertiveness Training and it's probably one of the best courses I ever took in dealing with all kinds of situations. The major thing that is taught is to first determine who owns the problem. In this situation, it sounds like the SO is the real owner of the problem by being "harsh, rude and saying inappropriate things." However by allowing her to continue this behavior toward you or DH, then you are being too nice and it has become your problem and you have shied away from including your friend of 12 years in your activities. To truly assert yourself, you look for solutions to this problem and affirm to yourself that you will not allow this SO to continue to be harsh, rude and say inappropriate things. It sounds like you have done that and I would really speak up in front of the friend if this significant other says stuff in front of you again that is rude and disrespectful..like I don't understand your last remark, what do you mean? By putting the SO on the spot, it will turn attention to the SO as having a problem. I agree with the others that you should do "lunch" with your friend aand have the heart to heart talk, owning up to this difficult situation. Not addressing these feelings will only make matters worse because the issue is being avoided continually. It isn't going to go away. Do let your friend know that you value her friendship, you want her to be happy and that you have known her for a long time. Put the ball in the other court where it belongs and don't continue to feel uncomfortable with this situation. You may find that your friend also has some feelings that need to come out in the open, too, and you may find that she will respect you all the more for coming to her and telling her how you feel. Good luck and keep us posted.
I REALLY believe that Nancy has expressed beautiully, and in just a few lines, a conclusion the rest of us were tryng to reach in our problem solving attempts. IMHO, here is a way to give this friendship a chance without compromising your own standards of the respect with which you have every right to be treated.
Campingboaters, Nancy has given very wise advice--you can put the confrontation off, but eventually the friction must be
faced--i.e.it can be at a time and place of your own choosing or it can be when you have unexpectedly "had enough" and suddenly explode in anger & frustration putting years of friendship at risk--perhaps ruining everything irreparably..Seems like this is bound to happen if you wait too long--and what about your DH? (Sounds like he has about reached his limits on this, too.)
Well done, Nancy! And cb, my thoughts are with you in this--I hope all goes well and that it ends with your valued friendship intact. Please keep us posted.
I think I NEED to take that assertiveness training course! I tend to shy away from conflict instead of meeting it head on.
I COMPLETELY agree with B-flat on how to handle this. The advise that b-flat has given seems so simple, yet I couldn't come up with that on my own. I LOVE the idea of putting the ball back in the SO's corner -- making HER deal with HER problem with us instead of making the problem ours. It's EXACTLY what I'm going to do, besides hopefully have a talk with my friend. The last thing I want to do is lose her friendship or make her unhappy, but she is going to have to deal with her SO's actions, NOT ME!
Thank you, thank you, thank you everyone!
Now that's great news. Yes, put the problem where it belongs! Now just pick a time that is right to bring it up with your long-time friend. You will know in your heart when the time is right to arrange it. Because we are mothers, we are used to putting up with a whole lot and have a whole lot of patience. Now that you have decided that the ball is in the other court and that you really don't own the problem anymore, it puts the problem exactly where it needs to be...on the SO. That is enough to make you stand your ground! And you are very right to say that your friend is the one who has to deal with (and live with) the significant other's actions. (Thank goodness the SO doesn't live in your house. ;) Don't let this situation worry you any longer. That's what asserting yourself is all about: deciding who owns the problem and taking the worry out of the sticky situations that arrive in everyone's lives. I used to be a yes person to everything and would later get mad at myself over committing too much time to various charities, school and children's activities. When I learned to assert myself that my schedule just wouldn't allow something, it was easier and the problem was solved. Of course those people asking me all the time were just putting the things off on me to do because they knew I was soft. Actually those folks were just using me for their own benefit and they were really the problem. When I was able to identify that, it made it much easier to say no and to mean it. It's kind of like Dear Abby telling you how to deal with the drop in neighbors or relatives, the ones that want to be entertained all the time, and the ones who won't let you get off the phone, etc. Those are really the problems, not you.
I guess my only "problem" now is to find an assertiveness training course! :D
Thanks B-flat and everyone else who responded. Hopefully, this thread also helped others realize they might be in a similar situation (someone putting their problems on you to deal with) and they also gained some insight.
Gotta LOVE this message board!
:# :S :W
Just starting to take a few steps at a time, you will get the assertivness you will need!
Helping others is what true friend are for any time help is needed (and you sometimes get more help than you asked for.) ;) :)