When we started Pop UP Times back in 1998 pop up sales were over 63000 units per year and have been shrinking ever since. September folding camping trailer shipments totaled 1,900 units, 17.4% behind last year, down 6.1% year-to-date with 26,200 units delivered. Ouch!
ouchie
I'm not terribly surprised, however, when many of the high end PU's are comparable in price to some of the hybrids, especially used.
Didn't PU sales go up (temporarily) after 9/11, because of travel issues/people wanting to be with family more/etc.?
Larry
Well, perhaps the recent gasoline prices could help to spur their sales again! When I sold my Coleman and went to the Hybrid, I really didn't expect to take the kind of hit I did with the fuel mileage.
Somehow, I think it has more to do with the price going up, up, and up. We paid $9500 for a fully loaded Coleman/Fleetwood Bayside in 2000. Any guess what they are today?
The 2003 Bayside was the same floorplan (except I think mirror imaged), so it might make a good comparison. It's blue book value, when THREE YEARS OLD ranges as high as $9,800! It has the same equipment and options.
Austin
I quickly stopped by a dealer the other day. Only glanced at two popups but both had price tags of over $11,000. Ouch. At that price, hybrids look like a better buy.
Another factor might be that camping isn't as cheap as it use to be. On our trip, we paid from $17 a night to $30 a night. State parks and National Parks are still a good deal but we checked one out in Florida and it was $27.50 a night no matter what tent or rig you had.
Might not seem like a lot but to a family on a tight budget, $50 just for the site for a weekend could be expensive.
Fifteen years ago I used a site that I paid about $14 a night for. Same site today costs me $31.50 plus the ressie fee and this is at a state park.
Then add in the cost of gas and It might explain why some people are not going into popups. And let's not mention the cost of the tv.
Even though popup sales are down, camping is still popular. Some campgrounds are very difficult to get into, especially on the weekends.
I wonder what the sales stats for big motor homes, large TTs and 5ths are during the same period. They are surely down with the high fuel prices, perhaps alot more than popups. In recent travels I have had two people with large rigs at different rest stops ask about my gas milage and how I like popups.....
Actually sales are going up for just about everything else! MH's are down a little...
You can those figures posted at rvbusiness.com....
http://www.rvbusiness.com/shipments.cfm (//%22http://www.rvbusiness.com/shipments.cfm%22)
Quote from: Gone-CampingActually sales are going up for just about everything else! MH's are down a little...
You can those figures posted at rvbusiness.com....
http://www.rvbusiness.com/shipments.cfm
In a way, this doesn't surprise me. A manufacturer proably needs to sell 50 pop-ups to make the same profit they would on one "low-end" (if there is such a thing) motorhome.
Where would you concentrate your marketing money?
Austin
One of the delemas that the pop up mfrs are faced with is the dealer sales force.
The salesman's commission on a pop up is $300 to $600 depending on the unit while a hybid or small travel trailer with a similar price sticker can pay as much as 3 times that amount. So if you're the salesperson which model are you going to promote?
That goes for advertising too, the mfrs have more ad dollars for the bigger units than they do pop ups.
Quote from: AustinBostonSomehow, I think it has more to do with the price going up, up, and up.
In my opinion this is the real reason for the decline. For a unit with a 12' box and some options you're within a few grand of a hybrid, or small hard-sided unit. Seeing as how both of those require less work to setup/take down it's not all that hard to make the correlation. PU's used to be inexpensive "starter" campers, but now it seems as though they've lost that focus. It's a shame.
Quote from: jawilsonIn my opinion this is the real reason for the decline. For a unit with a 12' box and some options you're within a few grand of a hybrid, or small hard-sided unit. Seeing as how both of those require less work to setup/take down it's not all that hard to make the correlation. PU's used to be inexpensive "starter" campers, but now it seems as though they've lost that focus. It's a shame.
I agree. However, more people are wanting to "camp", but still have LOTS of amenities. I am not slamming, because I might be one of those people, despite having a 20 year old camper. Our next camper hopefully will be a fiver. Talk about amenities!
Larry
Quote from: brainpauseI agree. However, more people are wanting to "camp", but still have LOTS of amenities. I am not slamming, because I might be one of those people, despite having a 20 year old camper. Our next camper hopefully will be a fiver. Talk about amenities!
Larry
Loved the word "amenities." Just read an article where campers are demanding more and more amenities at cg's. Thus, the big rise in wireless internet and cable tv available at sites.
Geeeeez, can't we leave those things at home and enjoy camping as it use to be. Chasing frogs, singing around the campfire, reading a book and just enjoying nature.
I do have to admit that we did bring a television along on both of our trips. Main reason was to keep an eye on the weather. Glad we did on our recent trip. Avoided driving into hurricane and New England northeaster. Other than that, no tv on trips.
Quote from: GeneFLoved the word "amenities." Just read an article where campers are demanding more and more amenities at cg's. Thus, the big rise in wireless internet and cable tv available at sites.
Geeeeez, can't we leave those things at home and enjoy camping as it use to be. Chasing frogs, singing around the campfire, reading a book and just enjoying nature.
I do have to admit that we did bring a television along on both of our trips. Main reason was to keep an eye on the weather. Glad we did on our recent trip. Avoided driving into hurricane and New England northeaster. Other than that, no tv on trips.
I agree Gene,
It is enough to have a microwave, water heater, shower, refrigerator/freezer, AM/FM/CD Stereo, furnace and an air conditioner. Why would you want to spoil the rustic nature of camping by bringing a TV?:D
I am not sure why popup sales are down but I do wonder how the entire RV industry is doing in each segment. Is it just popups or is it other types as well?
I don't like the increase in CG fees and fuel as compared to just a few years ago. It is getting to the point where it would be less expensive to fly somewhere for vacation and stay a week. Oh yea, we are going to Cozumel Mexico in Feb of 06.:p
Quote from: chasd60I am not sure why popup sales are down but I do wonder how the entire RV industry is doing in each segment. Is it just popups or is it other types as well?
Would we get a true picture this year with FEMA buying up TTs by the lots?
Quote from: chasd60I agree Gene,
It is enough to have a microwave, water heater, shower, refrigerator/freezer, AM/FM/CD Stereo, furnace and an air conditioner. Why would you want to spoil the rustic nature of camping by bringing a TV?:D
LOL Chas
You got me. Seems like I never think about those things now that I have them in the hybrid but then they come with the trailer. Computer and TV does not.
I think there might be one other factor, and that's tow vehicles. There are precious few family vehicles capable of towing even a medium-sized pop-up. With Chevy recently ending the S-10 and the Astro/Safari, there are even fewer. Couple that with higher and higher weights, and today's pop-up buyer has some tough choices to make.
This decline in towing capacity has been going on for decades. I remember my father towing my uncle's pop-up back in the 1970's with his 1966 Mercury Park Lane. I'd bet that car would have out-towed every minivan on the market today. All that, and a rear window that opened, too!
If you had to pay $xx,000 for a tow vehicle anyway, wouldn't you just go a bit further and buy the hybrid or travel trailer?
Austin
last week I listened to a campground owner complain about decreased occupancy this past year. She said she had to raise rates to cover the expense of converting several loops to 50amp service.
Not sure if it is just due to the lower interest in popups that campgrounds have decreased occupancy this year.
We talked to a couple of campground owners on our trip and they also mentioned lower occupancy but many of their cancellations were due to the hurricanes. One owner said he was down $9000 in September of this year verses last year. He blamed the weather and the price of gasoline. This was out in Tennessee.
We did see a lot of popups on this trip but not as many as we would have expected. It could be that we were travelling in Sept and Oct when kids are back in school. There are plenty of tt's out there and the big Class A's.
Actually, according to that website, Class A sales are down 13.2% from 2004.
At the RVIA show in Pomona last month the only people actually selling were the Toyhauler folks. Thousands of TTs were built for hurricane victims and are counted in that 18.8% increase number since last year.
Since 2004 when I purchased my PU, I always get asked at gas stations and campsites, "what is that"? Alot of people simply do not know that PUPs exist! I know it's hard to believe being on this message board. When people realize that it Pops Up and slides open, they say, "WOW, is that a new thing"?
I know that in Southern California you never see commercials or advertisements promoting PopUp campers! The only reason I know about them is because my father had one when I was a kid! The only reason he originally had one is because someone "paid" him with it back in the 70's, (he owned a service station).
People think nothing of spending $30,000 for a small to mid-size car these days, $15,000 for a small camper is "chump change" for many. The real issue is that there is simply NO promotion and marketing for PopUps.
I agree with Beacher, alot of people dont even know what a PU is. The reason i know about them is alot of my family in Wisconsin have them. Since I've had mine for (for about 2 months now) i've had to take pics to work to show my friends. They cant believe whats all inside. They all thought it was just a tent. I think RV dealers should advertise the PU's to get sales up and let people know just how affordable and fun they are. We can afford a big RV, but with a PU you get alot in a small package. For me storage isn't a problem, mine is just under 17 ft. long closed and fits perfectly in my garage.......... :sombraro:
I would say it could be also that you can buy a good used pup for a reasonable price. I know we had two used pups that we spent a lot of years in before we bought the new one. We have since traded for a HTT but I think that is more to do with the fact that our children are grown and we aren't getting any younger, so we just wanted more storage that you didn't have to crawl to get into and a frig of the same. We loved our pups but for DH's health we decided to move over.
I'm sure there are a whole host of reasons for the declining sales. Another possibility is the low interest rates we've enjoyed for the past several years. Even though they are creeping back up now, the rates have allowed shoppers who were considering a lesser car/home/RV to go bigger and more expensive.
I guess time will tell if it's a cyclical phenomenon or a permenent decline.
PU sales have actually been dropping for some time. PUT Mag edior Bob Zagami had mentioned to me several times over the last couple of years that the numbers were dropping. This is not a new trend, just the numbers are getting larger!
(Bob...you can chime in here anytime now!!)
Well with rising gas and interest rates - the pop up might make a comeback! :) We downsized to a smaller TV and went from a TT to a popup and one of the deciding factors is because we got tired paying $$$ at the pump for the full size TV needed to tow the TT. I don't think gas prices are going to get any better either.
I wonder if pop up sales continue to decline and not be profitable for the manufacturers, if some will decide not to make them anymore?
Nancy
The responses have been great to Dave's original posting on this topic. All of you are right in one way or the other. While the numbers don't lie, many of you are correct in pointing out that the industry doesn't advertise pop-ups, the dealers don't stock them, and the sales reps don't sell them!
This type of RV carries a high cost to manufacture and a lower per unit percentage of profit, so they don't have as much money to work with and invest in marketing and sales intiatives to promote this type of RV.
There is no question that the industry was impacted this year by the higher gas prices and increased cost of private campgrounds and our state/national park systems.
Motorhomes suffered the largest impact with sales down 15.7% through September. The only motorized segment that increased was the Class B motorhomes and they were up 5.3% but there were only 2,000 sold through Semptember .... nationwide!
Class C motorhomes are down 9.0% through September.
Travel trailers are up this year ... 16.9% through September, but fifth-wheels are down 4.6% and folding campers are down 6.1% with only 26,200 units sold. That's about 3,000 pop-ups a month for the entire country!
I agree with those who are concerned that pop-ups are more often above $10,000 than below $10,000! At that price, it is very easy to cross over to a hybrid or conventional travel trailer. One can not deny that many of the hybrids, ultralight and lightweight travel trailers are capable of being towed by conventional vehicles and smaller SUV's and pick-ups ... so it is easy to pass by the pop-ups and get something that is just as easy to tow, requires less time to set up upon arrival, and hasn't really hurt you in the wallet.
It is disappointing to see a large number of RV dealers with NO pop-ups on their lot ... not a single unit. For many dealers and sales reps, they are just not worth the hassle so they eliminate them from their marketing and sales initiatives.
I firmly believe that a dealer that concentrated on pop-ups could do very well, even if that was all they sold. They would be the talk of the town and could give the time and attention to detail and their prospects to answer all their questions and sell a lot of units.
As many of you pointed out, pop-ups may be the best kept secret in the RV industry. However, the odds of changing the downward trends are very slim because of the many negative factors working against success in this segment of the marketplace.
To reverse this trend we would need an incredible education and marketing campaign by everyone from campground owners to large mega-dealers that would need to embrace the initiative and work very hard to reverse the downward spiral that could eventually lead to the demise of this product segment in our industry.
That would be a very sad day for all RV'ers because, for many of us, that is where our best RV experiences and stories are fondly remembered, regardless of what we drive or camp in today.
As sales continue to drop, the costs will continue to rise, and prices will continue to increase ... it is not a pretty picture, but it is something that the entire industry is responsible for and very few people are going to fight against odds that they feel are overwhelming, and when they have many other options to turn to with hybrids, ultralights, and lightweight travel trailers.
The facts are real, the numbers are real ... through September there was a total of 297,7000 towables and motorhomes shipped from the factories to the dealers sales lots ... only 8.8% of them were folding campers! That number will probably be closer to 7.5% by the time we have the year-end numbers, given current trends, the build up of FEMA trailers, and the general industry slow down.
My gut feeling is that we don't have enough people in the industry (manufacturers, suppliers and dealers) who are willing to wage all out war to reverse these trends and prevent further erosion that will threaten the very existence of such a great RV idea!
I don't believe the pop-up is as doomed as it seems. If the big players start to pull out, there will be people who might not currently manufacture pop-ups (or any other trailer) who will start to fill certain nitches.
One of the things such manufacturers might do is cut amenities out - something the big boys with the big marketing brains won't do. But if you start with a $10K pop-up weighing 2,500 lbs., drop the fridge, hot water heater, a/c, porta-potti, shower, cold water tank, water pump, sink, and slide-out, (plus the complexities of installing all those things), you have a $4,000 pop-up that weighs 1,900 lbs. It will be easier to manufacture, have much lower waranty claims, require smaller and cheaper axles, brakes, tires, and hitch, etc.
Who makes a pop-up like that? Nobody.
Austin
Quote from: ZagamiI firmly believe that a dealer that concentrated on pop-ups could do very well, even if that was all they sold. They would be the talk of the town and could give the time and attention to detail and their prospects to answer all their questions and sell a lot of units.
I think the prime example of this is
Peco Campers in Atlanta. While not an exclusive pop up dealer by any means, they are willing to both promote and stock pop ups.
The day I went to pick up mine i was about forth in line waiting to pick up a new pop up. They had folks from 4 southeastern states waiting to pick them up. Peco is a no haggle dealer, the price you see is what you pay. But, it is a fair price and they have them on the lot to look at!
We need more dealers who are willing to promote pop ups!
Pop ups are doomed! Gee, my pop up might become a collector item! :)
I'd be interested in knowing what impact the Fleetwood/Coleman/Coachman debacle had on the industry. There had to be some effect. There must be a little money in pop-up's...or you wouldn't have witnessed the war that they waged!
Like Tim, my pop-up dealer (Hawley's in Fayetteville, NC) took the time and effort to sell us a pop-up. They didn't try and steer us in a direction we weren't interested in nor did they back away from comparing pop-up's with other campers...pro and con. It was appreciated.
The general decline may affect sales in the future. If dealers are moving fewer units, they might be less willing to haggle, which may drive away potential buyers. We are planning to buy a fifth wheel in the next couple of years, and if they don't meet our cash price, we will just have to walk. No financing for us.
Larry
I think that even though gas was expensive this summer, if the buyer already has a truck/SUV capable of towing a Travel Trailer they wouldn't be tempted by a similarly priced popup.
In a few years of high fuel prices it's likely that many buyers' next vehicle will be smaller. Then they're likely to look at popups. That's only if you can find a full-featured, good quality popup under 3000 gross. (To be towed by the typical minivan/highlander size vehicle)
Price still has to enter the equation though. Not that many people are willing to pay $15,000 for a tent. For many of us (even though I have no tenting), part of the appeal is the Tent+comforts. For those on the Dark Side, a folding trailer is only something to get if you can't afford a big ugly box... OOPS- I mean a nice travel trailer or motorhome.
I'm your typical RV camper, I, like many others started with a tent, then to a pop-up, skipped over the Hybrid and went straight for the TT. There are still alot of things I miss about my pop-up. Obviously the ease of towing is first. I miss the openess of it when it is all un-zipped. I miss the that it took up less room on the RV side of the house, plus here in SoCal, you can get permanent plates for a pop-up. Or, as the DMV girl told me "Your camper is eligible for Permanent Plates", I said: cool !!! She said: You only have to renew them every 5 years....:confused: . I said: Kinda takes the excitement of them being "Permanent" out of it doesn't it? Then I remembered where I was...California.
Botttom line is, I think pop-up's will always have a market. It's a starting point for young RVer's
Quote from: TheVikingplus here in SoCal, you can get permanent plates for a pop-up.
This got me wondering... what the definition was for PTI; I remember enjoying the rate on my PUP, and now have to pay $170/year for my Hybrid...
So, went to the DMV site.
PTI is for "all trailers, except trailer coaches and park trailers".
OK -- what is a "trailer coach"?
QuoteA "trailer coach" is a vehicle, other than a motor vehicle, designed for human habitation or human occupancy for industrial, professional, or commercial purposes, for carrying property on its own structure, and for being drawn by a motor vehicle. (CA Vehicle Code Section 635)
In theory this would mean that our regular campers are NOT "trailer coaches", because I know my Hybrid was not suitably designed for professional or commercial purposes (I can't use it full time, per warranty).
Would that mean that a recreational trailer should qualify for PTI? :)
Quote from: AustinBostonI think there might be one other factor, and that's tow vehicles. There are precious few family vehicles capable of towing even a medium-sized pop-up.
This decline in towing capacity has been going on for decades.
Actually, the opposite is true; towing capacities have been going
up for decades. There are 1/2 ton pickup trucks today that can haul and tow weights that are not too far removed from what a 1 ton was capable of about a dozen years ago. Mid-sized SUV's, for the most part, continue to increase their towing capacities too. It's not uncommon for those to be able to tow 6500+ pounds. Even mini vans are getting better. Less then 10 years ago it was uncommon to find one that could tow 2000 pounds, and now it's uncommon to find one that CAN'T tow 2000 pounds. A lot of them are 3000 or more pounds. Some of the "crossover" vehicles that try to claim they're SUV's, like Honda's CRV, don't have much capacity, but even those can probably tow most smaller PU's. My guess would be that towing capacity isn't really much of an issue.
Jawilson and Austin Boston are both right. Jawilson because most "cars" aren't rated to tow even an 8' popup at its GVWR. Austin because most SUV's are rated to tow TT's. Minivans and the like are rated to tow many, but not the biggest popups.
So if you have a "car", you tend to look at Motorhomes since you can't tow even a small popup, or else you buy a big truck and big trailer. If you have an SUV, you tend to look at TT's and Hybrids because they're not much more $ than popups.
Jim
2002 Chalet Arrowhead
2004 Subaru Forester XT
Towing capacity IS a big issue. Way back when 12 foot PU's rarely weighed over 1700 pounds and even the largest fully equipped ones raely went over 2400 pounds.
As an example I towed a 12 foot Rockwood 1206 and later a Jayco 12 footer with a 1977 Nova with a class I bumper hitch and neither grossed over 2000 pounds.
Today the same size trailer equipped as they were run from a low of 2500 pounds "dry" to a GWR of 3770 pounds.
With both trailers I had an actual 400+ pounds of CCC. Currently the last 4 12 foot PU's I weighed had less than 300 pounds off CCC off the showroom floor.
Also don't forget those 3500 pound tow ratings, include the loading in the TV, and any optional equipment on the van, as well as passengers.
Speaking about the decline of popups, the editors at Pop Up Times want to "expand" their coverage to HTT/Lightweight TT/toy haulers, popups not being their primary focus anymore. What is your opinion on that?
Nancy
Quote from: meriflower1985Speaking about the decline of popups, the editors at Pop Up Times want to "expand" their coverage to HTT/Lightweight TT/toy haulers, popups not being their primary focus anymore. What is your opinion on that?
Nancy
I think it might be a good idea. I have to commend Dave on his efforts over the past few years to give us a magazine that is dedicated to popups but I don't think it would hurt to expand the magazine.
I would prefer that it stayed with the smaller stuff and left the 5ver's and motorized rigs out.
My main reason for this is that it would give readers a more broad outlook on what is out there in smaller stuff and a hybrid or small tt might be the next logical step.
Although I own a hybrid, (after 4 popups) I have not seen very much material published about them and would like to see PopUpTimes include them in the magazine.
Quote from: zamboni
[bIn theory[/b] this would mean that our regular campers are NOT "trailer coaches", because I know my Hybrid was not suitably designed for professional or commercial purposes (I can't use it full time, per warranty).
Would that mean that a recreational trailer should qualify for PTI? :)
I agree with you. Let's try to explain that to the geniuses at DMV.....
having never thought of a Popup as an RV...
we kind of put the trailer b4 the TV. bought out coachmen...near 2500 lbs fully loaded (options and gear) owning a Chevy S-10 4.3 V-6 rated at 4500lbs towing capacity. Got lucky!
We have since bought a GMC Sierra with god knows how much capacity... and the DW is talking Hybrid... arrrrgh!
Had we the TV we now have and with info I gained form these forums I might have gone to a Hybrid ( money wise).. but now owning a Popup the only thing I would move to is a slide/push/pull/out.. on a popup. In laws have a 21 ft 5th wheeler and it is just as narrow. Our dealer has two different lots one for the popups and one for the trailers etc.. The sale lady knew nothing about popups ... in hind sight... she did not even know our popup had brakes for one thing. Another thread talked about knowledgable salespersons.. if they knew about popups they might refer someone to that line as a start up. And keep unsuspecting folks from buying over their TV wekghts!
And Mine fits in my garage!!!
Hey all!
My first new PU was a 2001 Coleman Taos which I pulled behind my 2001 Ford Crown Vic. We outgrew that and moved up to a new 2003 Coleman Carmel, which I towed with an '03 Ranger and then an '03 E-250 van. We loved having hot water, potty, shower, fridge, etc. and began taking longer and longer trips. When we'd get tired, we would take naps on an air matress in the back of the van at a rest area (or Wal-Mart). One morning I woke up in the van freezing cold and looked back at all the creature comforts of home popped down a few feet behind us. It was right then that I made up my mind to get a hybrid. We can now safely rest "turtled" in a rest area, but still enjoy "real" camping sleeping under tenting. What a great invention hybrids are!
Quote from: GeneFLoved the word "amenities." Just read an article where campers are demanding more and more amenities at cg's. Thus, the big rise in wireless internet and cable tv available at sites.
.
Ok, I know I am new to the RV scene but wireless internet while camping!?!?
I thought I was pushing it when I bring along a satellite radio to listen to baseball games. My Great-uncle owned a houseboat so I knew about cable... but he was living 1/2 the year in it. I use my P-UP as a weekend fishing lodge. I would never think of taking a tv or computer on a weekend getaway.
I love to go camping, even in rustic campgrounds...but my racing website doesn't sit still on the weekends, I take the laptop with me, if I can get free WiFi while camping great! If not, I connect via cell phone....Everyone has different views and different needs when camping!!