Ok. I'm a newbe. Fully admit my ignorance, but i've been carefully warned to not believe dealers when they say "sure your TV will handle that PU."
We have a 2005 Chrysler Minivan with tow package. I have the owner's manual in front of me, and it indicates that for this model, it can handle a "maximum trailer weight" of 3,350 pounds for 3-5 persons and luggage - minus 100 pounds if equipped with "in the floor seating". I think they mean our sto-n-go seats, so that reduces us to a max of 3,250 pounds.
We are a family of six in total, but the oldest child is only five (right now), so I think we can safely say we are only 3-5 total passengers. (I would estimate the total weight of the four kids as maybe 110 pounds max.)
We are in search of a larger, perhaps 12-14 foot PU without shower or toilet (or at least not mandatory), but with more seating. An example (only an example) would be the new Starcraft 2107 that indicates a a GVWR of 2720 pounds. (http://www.starcraftrv.com/starcraft_folding_campers/starcraft_floorplans_ss.html (//%22http://www.starcraftrv.com/starcraft_folding_campers/starcraft_floorplans_ss.html%22))
An example of a used PU that seems to fit our needs (and is close to the right price) is a "1998 VIKING M-2460 LEGEND 16', trailer tent in ex cond, 3 Way refrig, water heater, auto furnace, shower, toilet, in/out prop Stove, recent new converter, double prop tanks and awning, good tires, garaged." I hope to go look at it this week. Any advice on what an "average" versus "great" price would be for this PU?
I'll need to go look at it to find out what the GVWR is, unless someone here can give me a link to where old Viking weights can be found.
I am also curious as to whether, for a 12-14 foot PU, I should be looking for one with brakes (electric) for certain or only if available it would be a bonus...
I don't have a hitch yet, and imagine I'll step up and get a class III with anti-sway, and a "load equlizing hitch." The Minivan manual actually indicates "a load equalizing hitch is recommended for loaded trailer weights above 1,000 pounds and required for weights above 2,000 pounds."
Thanks for everyone's help! Happy New Year.
Flint (and family)
Flint, You may be looking for too much trailer. Any PU over 1800lbs (I think) will have trailer brakes. It is a law here in Ca. Not sure about Az. My Viking weighed 1850# and it did. If you are looking at a PU with a GVRW or 2720# as a for instance. You have to also consider the gear in the TV, plus the weight of ALL the passengers. Keep in mind this includes you and your wife too. The kids are 110lbs now. But trust me, I have a 19yr old and a 9 yr old and that weight won't last for long. It is my understanding that the weights from the factory are fluffed a bit as well. They have no idea how much soda and Ice you carry(or Beer and ice in my case), so if you're limit is 3350# you want to be around 10% under that to keep it safe. Given that (as an example). Take the 3350#'s and deduct 10% that leaves you with a safe tow weight of 3015#'s. Also remember that when you load you're PU to laod it heavier on the tongue, anything to the back of the PU will get you swaying in breeze. Keep in mind too that a short wheelbase TV has a harder time with a longer trailer. You can get Viking weights at their website, just click on the Viking banner above. Good Luck.
Flint-
Minivans are not usually good tow vehicles. I would agree with TheViking that you may be looking at too much trailer. We own a 1999 Grand Caravan, but bought a Jeep to tow our 2440 lb. camper. This is an easy tow for the Jeep, but I prefer not to push up against weight limits on a tow vehicle.
That being said, check for a GCWR, or gross combined weight rating. If you can't find it in the owners manual, a dealer should be able to help. This would be the total maximum weight for your vehicle plus the camper. This would also include the total weight of the vehicle, including passengers and equipment. Do not exceed this weight and it may be advisable to stay a bit under.
Actually there are many different weight ratings to consider, and you should become familiar with all of them.
Be careful also with weight equalizing hitches. The metal used in the tongues of many popups is not thick or heavy enough to handle weight equalizing hitches. Make sure your particular camper is capable of handling them. The owners manual should help there.
Sway bars would be a different matter. If you load the camper so that you have 12 to 15 percent of the weight on the tongue, you should be able to eliminate most sway. Anything 10% or less is setting yourself up for problems. You would influence tongue weight by the way you load the camper. In most cases heavier items would be placed in front of the axle in the camper to increase tongue weight. Using sway controls would help raise your margin of safety. Sway controls do not affect the ability of your tow vehicle to handle higher towing weights.
I would advise having brakes on any trailer you tow, regardless of the laws in your state. It's much safer towing with brakes, and it also takes some strain off the tow vehicle brakes to have them.
Also, you should not guess at the weights involved in your vehicle or camper. Find a scale and find out exactly how much weight you're dealing with. I use the scales at our local landfill transfer station. They're quite helpful for this process.
I'm sure others will post with additional information. Good luck, and welcome to the world of camping!
A safe drive is the start and end of every trip so don
Everyone has given you good advice. If you contact Viking they will be able to give you the information on the weight of the trailer. Be careful thought, the weight on a listed trailer is often without any of the appliances. You may have to add in the furnace, water heater, etc. Good luck and let us know what you find.:)
Flint - I just can't seem to throw away old popup camper brochures! Although I don't have one for a 1998, do have one for the 1997 Viking 2460 Legend and there it lists the dry weight as 2080 lbs, with a cargo capaity of 590 lbs, making the GVWR 2670. Now, according to the NADA RV values for the '98 M-2460, it shows a dry weight of 1900 lbs.; just what the difference would be I have no idea. Perhaps Viking could give you the exact numbers.
Fly
THANKS everyone. I feel like such a leech on this forum - getting info but offerring little. Hopefully I can return the favor to some other newbe after I become a "veteran" at this.
I hear a couple recommendations:
1. Stay smaller - perhaps a 10 foot PU but do an AAR (catching up with the lingo slowly) for larger space. Great recommendation! Little rain here in AZ but I do worry about the heat - hopefully we'll stay cool with an AAR!
2. go with a PU that has electric brakes - no matter what the size.
3. go with WDH - not all PU's have the ability to accept WDH. I found a nice description on another forum indicating that if the frame is in a "box" or rectangular shape, WDH will work, but if it is "U" shaped, it will not. Always check the owner's manual to verify though. The Van's manual indicates this is required for the size of PU we are looking at. I heard that Starcraft doesn't make very many PU's that can handle WDH. That seems short-sighted. (and cheap) I liked some of their floorplans. I wish the manufacturers would post old camper spec's so I could look these things up. The viking I noted above is probably a bit heavy.
I also found NADA for price analysis, but it seems like it is always a good $1000 less than anything quoted out there. Either folks are starting high or nada is too low (or I'm not entering all the correct info). I'll keep trying, and hopefully it's ok with you all to post some "is this price too high" to get you perspectives.
This may have convinced me to eventually move us to an SUV. Don't want to, but we'll see how towing a PU goes for the next seven years or so. We have an extended warranty on the van, so if the tranny goes out, it's covered up to about 85k miles or seven years I think.
Thanks again everyone. I hope not to over-analyze this but want to stay safe above all else (precious cargo).
Flint
It sounds like you have a good handle on what your van is capable of towing. You are not being a leach, you are new and willing to learn. Ask away with your questions. There is always someone that will give you their opinion. Keep looking until you can find the PU that fits your family.:)
Rawhide, I can't add anything to what has been said as it is all very good advice. I will add, after your last comment, to consider an Astro/Safari van. They are rear wheel drive and will tow most PU's without problem, even the high wall models that are heay. Published two weights for them are 5,500 lbs. and mileage is good, and they seat eight, or five with huge amounts of storage. We love ours and will be getting a 2005 one this year. Chevy stopped making them in '05, so there will be no new ones. I think it is a mistake as they fill a definate nich. I wish they would just redesign the body.
Quote from: jakelawRawhide, I can't add anything to what has been said as it is all very good advice. I will add, after your last comment, to consider an Astro/Safari van. They are rear wheel drive and will tow most PU's without problem, even the high wall models that are heay. Published two weights for them are 5,500 lbs. and mileage is good, and they seat eight, or five with huge amounts of storage. We love ours and will be getting a 2005 one this year. Chevy stopped making them in '05, so there will be no new ones. I think it is a mistake as they fill a definate nich. I wish they would just redesign the body.
Thanks! I thought of this while driving yesterday and saw an Astro. I didn't know they stopped building them. That's too bad. 7-8 years from now who knows what will be available...!
Oh, and I just checked email. I sent Viking an email yesterday and was surprised to see a response already:
Question: I am looking at an older Viking pop-up trailer - a 1998 M-2460
Legend to be exact. My Minivan requires the use of a ""weight distribution
hitch."" Does this camper support the use of this hitch? If not, do newer
Viking's support this? Thanks! Really like your campers!
Their response:
Although we do not recommend a weight distributing hitch, I do understand
that on some mini vans they are necessary. Viking recommends under those
circumstances that you use a Reese single spring bar W. D. part number
66069.
Connie
Viking RV Service DepartmentNow I just need to find out where I can get one of these, how much they cost, etc. and IF I get a viking, I'll know what WDH to use. (and I'll save this email forever!) Wonder why they do NOT recommend a WDH? I had heard that Vikings are a bit lighter and found the PU noted above - a bit high priced, but looks nice.
Try etrailer.com They have them, at least you can get an idea of what they look like and how they work. CW may have them too. Just make sure that no matter what PU tou buy, get a sway control.... Very helpful.
I used to tow a 01 niagra with a 02 Grand caravan it had a 3.8 engine
It did not have a tow package but it came with everthing I needed to tow with except the load level suspension and reciever.I added the hitch and wiring,and helper springs. The van did very well.We where a total of 4. I watched my weight and how I packed the van kept most off the wieght in the pop-up.There are alot off things to keep in mind when towing with any kind of tow vehicle.Read everything you can about towing then read somemore .Then ask questions,I have read this board for a few years infact I remember when it was a pay sight. And I could say people on this site are great to ask questions too.They go out of there way to help.
We went from the pop-up to a trailmanor (2619) I towed with the van for one season.It also tow verygood with that trailer also
But it took its toll on it. Now we have a durango so the wear and tear is not as bad. Good luck
Just a quick note here...seems eveyone has you well covered otherwise. You said your mini-van doesn't have a hitch and you plan to put one on (or have one installed), do yourself a huge favor and MAKE SURE you have a transmission cooler installed at the same time! Failure to do so will likely result in the transmission getting burnt up quickly. You also mentioned you have a warranty on the van, but not sure if towing a trailer would give those honoring the warranty a reason to deny a claim, particularly when the van wasn't factory equipped to do towing. All I'm saying here is if you do have to file a claim, they could spin that one around on you!!
Quote from: Gone-CampingJust a quick note here...seems eveyone has you well covered otherwise. You said your mini-van doesn't have a hitch and you plan to put one on (or have one installed), do yourself a huge favor and MAKE SURE you have a transmission cooler installed at the same time! Failure to do so will likely result in the transmission getting burnt up quickly. You also mentioned you have a warranty on the van, but not sure if towing a trailer would give those honoring the warranty a reason to deny a claim, particularly when the van wasn't factory equipped to do towing. All I'm saying here is if you do have to file a claim, they could spin that one around on you!!
As an X-Service Manager for a new car dealership, I can tell you for
certain that they will deny any warranty claim for transmission damage if you are towing with a vehicle that does not have a factory trailer towing package.
That said, a good transmission cooler should take care of the major factor in early transmission failure.
The other thing that you may want to look into for your van is ceramic disc brake pads:
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brakes.jsp?make=Satisfied&model=Pro+Ceramic+Pads They dissipate heat far better than conventional pads. Over-heated brakes is the A#1 biggest problem when towing near the maximum of your vehicles capacity. When the brakes over-heat, they just simply fail to work. Over-heating the brakes can also boil the brake fluid and and make the hydraulic fluid fill with air bubbles and make your brakes fail to work. I put ceramic pads on my Concorde and I was very impressed. I tested the system by ridding my brakes while towing my trailer down a steep grade and my trailer brakes turned off (in a remote area with no traffic and an escape route). I experienced zero brake fade. At the bottom of the hill, I got out and put my hand on the wheel. It was hot but not excessively hot.
I am in
no way suggesting that you tow in an over-loaded capacity. All I am saying is that don't look for your dealer to stand behind their warranty, so I do suggest that you do what
YOU have to do to protect yourself and your vehicles safety.
My van came with the tow package which includes the heavy duty radiator, engine cooler, tranny cooler, load levelers, and a few other things I believe. I'll confirm but I'm pretty sure. Good idea about ceramic brake pads. Pretty sure they don't come with that.
I hate to go to the dealer to get the hitch put on - seems like they are always high cost.
I need to research the WDH more to see if that is part of the "standard hitch" package (III) or is an add-on after the hitch (that the dealer would install).
What comes first? The trailer or the hitch? Hmmm. (chicken and egg syndrome?)
Quote from: Rawhide KidMy van came with the tow package which includes the heavy duty radiator, engine cooler, tranny cooler, load levelers, and a few other things I believe. I'll confirm but I'm pretty sure. Good idea about ceramic brake pads. Pretty sure they don't come with that.
I hate to go to the dealer to get the hitch put on - seems like they are always high cost.
I need to research the WDH more to see if that is part of the "standard hitch" package (III) or is an add-on after the hitch (that the dealer would install).
What comes first? The trailer or the hitch? Hmmm. (chicken and egg syndrome?)
Check out the underside of the van, where the hitch would go. I put one on my Dodge Ram myself. They pre-drill the frame so the hitches just bolt up. The hardest part is trying to hold the thing while you put the bolts in. Contact a place over in Phoenix called Quality S Mfg. It's over on 43rd Ave. just South of Indian School. They mfg all kinds of hitches there. I bought mine for like $50.00 a few years back. They have a website too
http://www.quality-s.com/. Good Luck
I won't belabor this, but let me add my 2 cents. In my experience with campers and tow vehicles of of all types and sizes, I feel that towing limits are exaggerated. Whenever I've tried towing the maximum, I've been disappointed. Personally, I reduce the towing capacity of the tow vehicle by 20% and use that as a target weight for a fully loaded RV. The book says my Ford pickup is capable of towing 7300 lbs. The loaded camper is around 6,000 lbs. This is a good match, and I wouldn't want to go much heavier. My Quest was rated at 3000 lbs, and a 2500 lb. trailer strained it.
Quote from: Rawhide KidI need to research the WDH more to see if that is part of the "standard hitch" package (III)
The standard Class III hitch is usually a receiver that you add a draw bar to. Just a receiver with a 2 inch square hole in it. The WDH is a totally different item.:)
The family went to our first RV show today - only three dealers with PU's there - Jayco, Fleetwood, and Starcraft. It was nice to look at the new one's (what they had) one right after the other.
The family then went to the Starcraft dealer (Payless) and looked at some new and used ones. They had a 2107 2005 model that they had rented for a year - $4250 out the door. Still a little high - he was willing to throw in a hitch and anti-sway for my van for free at that price. I thought he was still too high since the PU looked pretty well used. These rentals probably get 5-7X more use in a year than "owned" PU's do in most years.
Found a really nice 2005 model 2407 (link below) but they had it at $5500 without tax - bumping it over $6k. Way above our budget. But the DW made an interesting comment looking at it: "THIS would be fun!" (she didn't say that looking at the 2107!)
http://www.starcraftrv.com/starcraft_folding_campers/starcraft_floorplans_ss.html (//%22http://www.starcraftrv.com/starcraft_folding_campers/starcraft_floorplans_ss.html%22)
We'll keep looking. Couple interesting comments. Nobody thinks you need or would want a WDH. The Jayco salesperson had to look it up to make sure that their PU was ok with a WDH (I insisted she check to be sure). The Starcraft dealer REALLY poo-poo'd the need for it.
I continue to like the Starcraft floorplans. The 2407 started in 2000, so I hope we can find an older model that is cheaper. The 2407 tops out at ~3k pounds which should be ok with our Minivan. The dealer said that "prices go way up in the spring" but I think the number of PU's for sale go up too so perhaps we can find something we'll like. If not, we can wait til the fall we decided. We'll continue to tent or use our van til then (just me and my son and perhaps one daughters). Can't rush this.
Hopefully we'll find a nice PU this spring or fall, but if not, oh well. Another year won't kill us, and by then the youngest (who is officially six months old today) will be a bit more road-ready and the next youngest potty-trained.