Wondering if someone can help me out. I am searching for my first pop up but I am having trouble. My tow vehicle is a Subaru Outback which can tow 2000lbs but with a warning that the pop up should have brakes (electric) if the pop up weights over 1000 lbs. Can anybody give me any feedback on what dry weight I should stay under so I dont ruin my car? Also, is there an online web source that compares campers? Or can somebody recommend a camper that the tow with a car?
Thanks,
Dean
That's gonna be tough, 2000LBS. Here is the smallest P-UP Viking sells, the Epic Series 1706. Without your gear and family loaded it is already overweight for your TV. Figure out what the weight of all the people that will be in the TV when you go camping (tell the wife to be honest, this is important) , ball park a weight for gear you would take(500LBS min) and then deduct that from the 2000LB rating. That will give you a very general idea.
Dry Weight # 1405#
Cargo Capacity 750#
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating 2155#
Weights are Approx
Well it's best to forget "dry weight" entirely. First no one EVER towed a trailer off the dealer lot at dry weight. Way to amny things are not included in the "dry weight".
Start looking at the GVWR's or the heaviest the unit should weight and start your selection there. What we do is make a certified weight slip a deal breaker. If the dealership won't weight the trailer for us beforw we sign we walk away. Over the years we've seen too many RV's of all types not just PU's come off the dealer lot AT or OVER the GVWR.
There are several pop ups that you can tow easily, but most are not the main stream brands. Take a look at Lite Tent Camper (//%22http://www.litetentcamper.com/%22), Kamparoo (//%22http://www.outbackkamping.com/%22), Windward Campers (//%22http://www.windwardcampers.com/%22).
And don't forget to take a look at Chalet (//%22http://www.chaletrv.com/faqs.html%22), they advertise that Subaru Outbacks can tow their trailer.
Thanks for the response and resources. My research has led me to the 2000 Starcraft Meteor. It has a dry weight of 1200 and a GVWR of 2000 which should be fine for my subaru outback. Does anyone have an opinion on the 2000 Starcraft Meteor?
Quote from: helmetThanks for the response and resources. My research has led me to the 2000 Starcraft Meteor. It has a dry weight of 1200 and a GVWR of 2000 which should be fine for my subaru outback. Does anyone have an opinion on the 2000 Starcraft Meteor?
Just remember, 1200LBS dry- That leaves 800Lbs that will include all the stuff you keep in the pup, gear you take in the outback, and the weight of the people in it as well. Also, Water in the pup and full propane tank is not included in the dry weight either. The rule is that your trailer should be 10% under the towing capacity of the TV. I'm not trying to break your b@#*'s, just trying to make sure you get as educated as I did when I found this site. Plus, if you're towing at, or above you're capacity, that's alot more wear and tear on your transmission and engine when going up hills, etc. Just my 2 cents
Here's an idea:
http://www.bf-specialties.com/
Some friends recently bought one, and when set up, this thing is HUGE! They bought it to tow behind a PT Cruiser.
Larry
Quote from: TheVikingJust remember, 1200LBS dry- That leaves 800Lbs that will include all the stuff you keep in the pup, gear you take in the outback, and the weight of the people in it as well. Also, Water in the pup and full propane tank is not included in the dry weight either. The rule is that your trailer should be 10% under the towing capacity of the TV. I'm not trying to break your b@#*'s, just trying to make sure you get as educated as I did when I found this site. Plus, if you're towing at, or above you're capacity, that's alot more wear and tear on your transmission and engine when going up hills, etc. Just my 2 cents
So many letters and number here, it gets confusing. Viking are you intending GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) here? GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) is the total weight of that vehicle only. 2000 GVWR should be the total weight of the trailer only. That includes the camper, gear, fluids and everything else on or attached to the trailer. GCWR is the total weight of everything...tow vehicle AND trailer, all gear, passengers, fluids, everything. The Suburu should have a GCWR as well as a tow capacity rating. A Suburu dealer should be able to look it up for you. Unless I'm missing something here (and maybe I am), the tow capacity should not necessarily include gear and people in the tow vehicle.
Quote from: dthurkSo many letters and number here, it gets confusing. Viking are you intending GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) here? GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) is the total weight of that vehicle only. 2000 GVWR should be the total weight of the trailer only. That includes the camper, gear, fluids and everything else on or attached to the trailer. GCWR is the total weight of everything...tow vehicle AND trailer, all gear, passengers, fluids, everything. The Suburu should have a GCWR as well as a tow capacity rating. A Suburu dealer should be able to look it up for you. Unless I'm missing something here (and maybe I am), the tow capacity should not necessarily include gear and people in the tow vehicle.
You are correct; and it does get confusing.
For example, my Highlander is rated to tow 3500 lb. Here's what my owner's manual says about trailer weight:
"The total trailer weight (trailer weight plus its cargo load) must not exceed the following. Exceeding this weight is dangerous. 3500 lb."
Then it goes on to discuss gross combination weight: "The gross combination weight (sum of your vehicle weight plus its load and the total trailer weight) must not exceed the following. 7985 lb."
Now, if you subtract 3500 from 7985 you get 4485, which is the weight of my Highlander plus its gear, plus passengers plus trailer tongue weight. Nowhere is there any indication that gear and passengers in the Highlander should be considered part of the 3500 lb trailer capacity.
When the car manufacturer uses the term "vehicle" (the "V" in GVWR), they are referring to the tow vehicle, not the trailer.
I've been told that Toyota calculates and reports on GCWR differently than do other manufacturers. When dthurk says GCWR inlcudes the vehicle AND the trailer, that is not true for me. My owner's manual says this about GCWR: "The gross vehicle weight is the sum of weights of the unloaded vehicle, driver, passengers, luggage, hitch, and trailer tongue load." SO - it includes the trailer tongue load (which makes sense to me), but not the weight of the trailer. I think the reason for this is that the trailer weight (downward force due to gravity) does not bear on the frame of the tow vehicle, other than the weight of the tongue.
I think anyone who posts here should be aware that there may be different calculations for different auto manufacturers. What dthurk says at the end is the bottom line: get the straight story from your car dealer. They are the only ones who really know what their vehicles are made to be able to do.
Quote from: dthurkSo many letters and number here, it gets confusing. Viking are you intending GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) here? GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) is the total weight of that vehicle only. 2000 GVWR should be the total weight of the trailer only. That includes the camper, gear, fluids and everything else on or attached to the trailer. GCWR is the total weight of everything...tow vehicle AND trailer, all gear, passengers, fluids, everything. The Suburu should have a GCWR as well as a tow capacity rating. A Suburu dealer should be able to look it up for you. Unless I'm missing something here (and maybe I am), the tow capacity should not necessarily include gear and people in the tow vehicle.
Go here:
http://rveducation101.com/Articles/TowVehicleTrailer.pdf Yes you do have to include gear and people, it adds weight to the vehicle.
Yes, check with your dealer.... I have a Subaru also even though i don't tow with it...but our dealer told us that with Subaru (also Honda I believe) you don't have to count the weight of the passengers, that it is somehow already included in the vehicles weight when they figure the tow ratings. He said for Subaru and Honda the tow rating number is the ACTUAL weight you can tow.
First, thanks for all the info. What a great community. I will check with my local Subaru dealer although I am hoping I get accurate info.
I did check my Subaru manual and my exact weight ratings are this :
GVWR - 4555
GAWR - 2210
Total Trailer weight (towing capacity) - 2000
It is my belief that my pop up with gear in the pop up cannot exceed 2000 lbs. Passengers and gear in the tow vehicle (subaru) are not included in this number.
Quote from: vjm1639Yes, check with your dealer.... I have a Subaru also even though i don't tow with it...but our dealer told us that with Subaru (also Honda I believe) you don't have to count the weight of the passengers, that it is somehow already included in the vehicles weight when they figure the tow ratings. He said for Subaru and Honda the tow rating number is the ACTUAL weight you can tow.
Wow, this is good news! I'm new to all this and had a few questions but I guess they have been answered by the above comment. This means I can put 5 people,motorcycles and camping gear in the back of my TV and it will not have any effect on towing weight whatsoever. Cool.
Quote from: New2PopWow, this is good news! I'm new to all this and had a few questions but I guess they have been answered by the above comment. This means I can put 5 people,motorcycles and camping gear in the back of my TV and it will not have any effect on towing weight whatsoever. Cool.
Yes and no.
If you are towing with a Toyota (or apparently a Subaru or a Honda), then, technically you are correct. However, there are other weight ratings that you have to take into account, that have nothing to do with towing. Your vehicle has a weight rating that you cannot exceed. (Forget about towing for the moment.) Your 5 people, motorcycles, and camping gear will impact that rating.
Quote from: SpeakEasyYes and no.
If you are towing with a Toyota (or apparently a Subaru or a Honda), then, technically you are correct. However, there are other weight ratings that you have to take into account, that have nothing to do with towing. Your vehicle has a weight rating that you cannot exceed. (Forget about towing for the moment.) Your 5 people, motorcycles, and camping gear will impact that rating.
Ok, So I have an 06 Ridgeline, I have a GVW of 6,050, I can tow 5000Lbs, and I have a payload capacity of 1550. Therefore, I can have a 5000Lb trailer loaded, 1550Lbs in the truck (Not including people), and it will not put any stess on the truck whatsoever? Because that's what the "General" consenses seems to be here except for a couple of people.
I guess as long as you have a warranty on your TV... load it as full as your capacities allow and have a good time. When stuff breaks going up that steep hill, take it to the dealer, get it fixed and start over.
Quote from: New2PopOk, So I have an 06 Ridgeline, I have a GVW of 6,050, I can tow 5000Lbs, and I have a payload capacity of 1550. Therefore, I can have a 5000Lb trailer loaded, 1550Lbs in the truck (Not including people), and it will not put any stess on the truck whatsoever? Because that's what the "General" consenses seems to be here except for a couple of people.
Not exactly.
There are two kinds of "stresses." (Let's call them forces.) There's the downward force of all the weight the tow vehicle has to carry. For my Highlander that capacity is a mere 925 lb. The only way in which the trailer impacts that 925 lb is through the trailer's tongue weight. The tongue weight is a downward force on my Highlander's frame. This, by the way, turns out to be the most limiting figure I have to work with. By the time you add up passengers, luggage, and tongue weight that 925 lb gets "full" VERY quickly. I can carry very little luggage!
Then there is the (normally horizontal) force that resists your movement down the road. This is where the towing capacity comes in. It puts stress on your tow vehicle in different ways and in different places than does the downward force of the weight of stuff you're carrying.
No matter how much downward force I put into my Highlander, I can still PULL 3,500 pounds.
I'm not making this up.
And I don't think Mark Polk, the guy who wrote the article provided by "The Viking," has read a Toyota manual.
Quote from: SpeakEasyNo matter how much downward force I put into my Highlander, I can still PULL 3,500 pounds.
I'm not making this up.
And I don't think Mark Polk, the guy who wrote the article provided by "The Viking," has read a Toyota manual.
I have so much to add to this but I think I will decline and just continue to read this thread...:W
I did say it was confusing. Of course, the hardest step in this process is to get everything weighed, rather than guessing at weights. I don't know how many actually might do that. I use the scales at our local landfill transfer station. They're more than happy to help me out.
Quote from: TheVikingI have so much to add to this but I think I will decline and just continue to read this thread...:W
Post away! Why hold back? If there's something that I'm misunderstanding, I want to be corrected. I just don't see any other way to interpret what my owner's manual says.
No animosity here.
:)
Quote from: SpeakEasyPost away! Why hold back? If there's something that I'm misunderstanding, I want to be corrected. I just don't see any other way to interpret what my owner's manual says.
No animosity here.
:)
Ok, first off, this statement:
No matter how much downward force I put into my Highlander, I can still PULL 3,500 pounds. Makes no sense. As you said in another post, "Downforce is tongue weight" then what you are saying is your Highlander can have an Unlimited amount of weight on the tongue. So by this are you saying that if you had a trailer that weighs 1500lbs, you could load 2000lbs on the tongue plus add gear and people in the Highlander?
Personally, I don't believe in running the weight of my trailer all the way up to the limit of the TV & overloading the tongue weight, it's simply not safe for me, my family, or anyone else on the road with me. If the Toyota manual says that, it is wrong IMO. I will see what my Tundra book says.
Also, I believe Mark Polk to be an expert in the RV field, as he has been doing this since the 1970's, he has seen and tested way more stuff than you and I will ever see.
MMM....MMMMMM.....MM..........MMMMMMMMMMM......MMMMM!
And that's all I have to say on the matter :D
Oh ya...............MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Quote from: TheVikingOk, first off, this statement: No matter how much downward force I put into my Highlander, I can still PULL 3,500 pounds. Makes no sense. As you said in another post, "Downforce is tongue weight" then what you are saying is your Highlander can have an Unlimited amount of weight on the tongue. So by this are you saying that if you had a trailer that weighs 1500lbs, you could load 2000lbs on the tongue plus add gear and people in the Highlander?
.
Relax, Mr. Viking, relax.
Context is everything. The statement above came after a long harangue about the weight-carrying capacity of the Highlander being 925 pounds. The point I was trying to make was that towing capacity and weight-carrying capacity are two different things. Rather than saying "no matter how much downward force I put into my Highlander..." what I mean to say is, "whether I put zero pounds in my Highlander or 925 pounds in my Highlander...." Please don't think that I am saying I can carry unlimited weight. The full context of that post should make that clear.
No point in getting testy here.
I'm not being testy at all, I'm merely trying to understand where it is you are coming from, that's all. No big deal Bro.
Quote from: SpeakEasyPost away! Why hold back? If there's something that I'm misunderstanding, I want to be corrected. I just don't see any other way to interpret what my owner's manual says.
No animosity here.
:)
hehehehehehe :p
I saw this one commin' :D
Quote from: waveryhehehehehehe :p
I saw this one commin' :D
Hey.....Wayne......Go sail a boat somewhere would ya........LOL :)
Things change. I happen to think this is a change for the good.
My Grand Caravan owners manual gave a max trailer weight and then went on to point out that the weight of the passengers, cargo , etc. had to be subtracted from that. For some people that's too much work. They stop at the 3500 lbs and never really figure out what they can tow.
My Saturn Vue owners manual gives a flat tow rating that includes the passengers and cargo. As long as I don't exceed the GVWR for the Vue and have trailer brakes I can tow 3500 lbs. Much easier for the average joe to figure out. Many of the newer vehicles are listing the tow weight this way - I believe it is in the interest of protecting them from lawsuits.
The problem of weight still exists, however. I believe the at least 75% of the people who tow camping trailers (be they hardsided or pup) have never weighd their rig at a scale to really see if they are within the GVWR of either vehicle, the GAWR of each axle, and the GCWR of the entire rig. I cringe whenever I read someone's comment about their pup as "the specs say..". You don't tow specs, and you don't tow advice. Get your rig weighed so you can really know if you are within "specs" or not.
Quote from: TheVikingHey.....Wayne......Go sail a boat somewhere would ya........LOL :)
Geee......you don't have to get all "Testy" Brian :p
:D
Oh, being a Subaru owner (04 Forester 2,400 lb tow rating) and having researched the living poop out of things, you look OK on the Starcraft but will quickly be at your limit. Check out the Fleetwood Taos if you can find one (they only produce them in mid year in small amounts for big dealers). They run under 1200 lbs and have a light tongue weight U shaped dinette. Can sleep six but make sure anyone who has to pee at night is on the dinette bed...
You will also find that Subaru limits you to a 200 lb tongue weight. Taos's come with electric brakes standard. There is also the Tuscon at 1245 lb's. Fleetwoods are nice and light in the front end. There is a place selling new ones in Georgia (don't know where you live but for context) called peco camping check them out at around 4,700 bucks. This is a DEAL. Based upon your 2K limit, you have at least a four year old??? Outback. If it is the regular 4 banger boxer engine you are there. If it is the six, then they seriously underrated you on weight. If you have an automatic irrespective and plan any "hills/mountains" up and down, get a tranny cooler or reconsider...
I have a Flagstaff 176 and they are heavy on the tongue weight at 178 lbs. I have to pull my battery to stay under but it is a great camper. I am at around 1800 to 1900 with a dry weight of 1351 and I am not overloading my pup... Four or five year old Taos's or Jayco Quest 4U's come in at less than 1,000 lbs so keep that in mind and I don't know why the older ones are lighter but they are. The Quests have surge brakes, but are still nice.
Check this site out also... http://www.rvtowingtips.com/what-can-i-tow.htm
And you could also pull an Aliner ($$$$) or a Livinlite (all aluminum $$$$).
good luck, you can do it, you are just limited and research it a bit. But for 2 to four people an 8 box will give you everything you want.
I saw someone mention things about reducing what you have in the vehicle... For Subaru's, the tow rating is pure in that as long as you are under you GVWR and axle ratings you are cool irrespective of what is in the Subaru. Unlike most US vehicles you do NOT have to subtract what is in the TV from what you are towing. But don't go to the max anywhere and always give yourself a cushion on weight where you can. You will always be counting lbs.
Subaru's allow substantially higher tow ratings in other countries. UK, Australia and New Zealand have rated a "Forester" as the best tow vehicle for the last three years (different years different countries). It has been postulated that in the U.S., Subaru is afraid of how sue happy our culture is and that is why they lower the tow rating to reduce litigous complications, but don't count on that to get antsy and think you can go heavier.
Oh, and get a Class II after market hitch. I have a hidden hitch. The Subaru Class I hitch is another over priced attempt to keep people from towing anything in the U.S.
Quote from: abbearI believe the at least 75% of the people who tow camping trailers (be they hardsided or pup) have never weighd their rig at a scale to really see if they are within the GVWR of either vehicle, the GAWR of each axle, and the GCWR of the entire rig...You don't tow specs, and you don't tow advice. Get your rig weighed so you can really know if you are within "specs" or not.
I have to agree with this. Whatever else you do, get your rig weighed.
I had calculated everything. I knew I was well within spec, just over 75% of the GCWR. But the scale does not lie...I was really at 91% of the rating, almost 2,000 lbs more than I thought. Every axle was within 100 lbs of it's max weight rating as well. BTW, if I had used air bags instead of a WDH, the rear GAWR would have been exceeded.
I have never heard of anyone driving onto a truck scale and finding out they weighed less than they thought. When working with the specs, you have to work with a
large safety margin, because
reality will be heavier. In the end, the only way to know is to get weighed.
Austin
A couple of FYI's:
According RV Industry News the estimate of RV's (and we're talking ALL classes) that have had their rigs weighed is only 5%.
European car do have a "higher" tow rating than in their US models. BUT it has nothing to do with litigation.
Trailers (called caravans over there) are designed/built quite differently than their US counterparts. They are setup to run (as boat trailer are in the US) with tongue weights in the 5 to 6% range.
A very common "tow rating" fior European versions is 75kg/1500kg or 165 pounds/3300 pounds. So if you brought one from overseas you'd be even more limited to the US type trailer with it's 10% or greater tongue weight rating to safely tow.
The US limits on these "identical" cars reflects the US build of trailers. They know if they put out the 165/3300 pound rating in the US the vast majority of folks would only read the 3300.
Quote from: mike4947A couple of FYI's:
According RV Industry News the estimate of RV's (and we're talking ALL classes) that have had their rigs weighed is only 5%.
My gut was that it was at least 90%. This is why manufacturers build in a "fudge" factor. They know most of us won't take the time or trouble to be sure we are within limits. So they just lower the limits a little.
Famous last words: "Hey, we're moving. I guess we showed those guys! This Yugo is a pretty gutsy little car pulling this 25 footer."
:yikes:
Your point on weight seems to take care of the tongue weight, but what about the rest of it that the Europeans and Aussies are toting irrespective of the tongue weight?
I do know, for example, that the Australian version of my vehicle in the manual has a low range... (Subaru Forester) and that they come standard down under with the "load leveling" struts, which Subaru ONLY puts on LL Bean versions in the U.S. (but you can retro them on any Forester after "02").
So, I see some differences, but still have the question. And I don't really want to haul that much personally. Just wondering... Myself and a couple of others have gotten completely different answers primarily consisting of gobbledy gook from our TV manufacturer. One rep online said that in informal discussions (at least relative to Subaru) the litigation issue did come up in the conversations.