Maybe I'm being overly cautious, but I don't like messing with propane stuff (I don't even like starting our gas grill at home, I get my husband to do it). Does anyone have a pop-up and only use charcoal grills or electric skillets at the campsite for cooking? With our vacation habits, I see us grilling out or just going out to eat alot. (Disney World, Myrtle Beach, etc.) I can get around the hotwater issue by using paperplates/utensils, etc. Do the A/C's normally run on electricity? If we got a fridge I'd most likely get one that ran on electricity or just bring a big cooler to keep drinks/other things in (the RV fridge's seem pretty small anyway). Sorry if I sound paranoid, I just want to keep my family safe from any freak gas accidents. On another note if you can convince me how safe and easy the propane stuff is to use in a pop-up (we'd be buying new) maybe I could be convinced?
Thanks in advance!
No. You are the ONLY one. ;)
We use everything that can run on propane, on propane. I run my PopUp refrigerator on Propane instead of AC when at a campground with full hookups. If I get a portable Yamaha or Honda inverter generator, I'll have it setup to run on propane. I have been using the stuff since the early 70's with the little narrow 1 pound propane canisters on lanterns and stoves. Now I use two twenty pound cylinders on my PopUp.
In all this time I have never seen anyone get hurt using propane. While during that same time I have experienced many people being slightly or seriously electrocuted using AC, and serious flare-ups with liquid fueled camping equipment.
I can understand your concern however it really is a freak accident when a fire explosion starts because of propane........Our A/C runs off Electricity.....I too use our frig. on propane it keeps things much cooler......You can run it on electric it just runs a little warmer. We have camped for many years and have only seen one mishap due to propane and it was the owners fault. carol
We are newer owners ourselves with a new PU. Propane and propane products are great, just follow the simple directions/cautions as with anything you use.
When there are accidents with anything it is normally due to user misuse/abuse, not because of the product.
Patrick :usflag:
I recently put a quick connect adapter on my PU stove and 20lb propane tank so I can use my stove away from my PU. Best thing I could have done.
We have a furnace that runs on propane but we have never used it. (For one, I have no idea how to light the darn thing and two, we usually don't camp in cold weather and have a small ceramic heater if it gets cold.) Most of my other friends who have PUs use their stove, furnaces and a/cs and have never had a problem.
Quote from: HeatherPageSorry if I sound paranoid, I just want to keep my family safe from any freak gas accidents.
I think
freak is the operative word.
During the first Pop-Up-Times rally in Townsend, TN in 2002, a small child at a nearby campground was accidentally killed by a defective marshmallow stick being swung by her young sibling. It's been some years, but I believe what happened was the other child (I think 5 or 6 at the time) had a marshmallow catch fire, and he was trying to put it out. The wire stick came out of it's handle and struck the girl in the back of the head near the base of the skull, and she died. That was a classic freak accident. I bring it up because we do not and should not dramatically change our ways because of freak accidents. PJay and I have never allowed (before or since) swinging flaming marshmallows, but that accident does not cause us to throw away all of our marshmallow sticks and never eat another s'more; it also does not cause us to require everyone to wear a helmet when toasting marshmallows.
Propane is no more dangerous (and quite possibly safer) than the container of lighter fluid most people would use to light the charcoal. It is most certanly safer than the charcoal itself is while lit. And unlike the carcoal, propane can be turned off instantly and is much better contained. Propane burners are generally either inaccessible to toddlers or high enough so they have to construct a ladder to reach them; this is not true of campfires. I have seen charcoal grills tip over; I have never seen a propane grill, stove, water heater, or furnace tip over.
If it's the "whump!" when a propane burner lights that you are afraid of, then your fear may actually be causing the problem! Fear of the propane leaping out is causing you to hold the match or lighter too far from the burner when lighting. Get an adequate supply of those lighters with a long neck on them (Scripto is one brand, but not the only one), light it FIRST, hold it so the flame is CLOSE to the burner (about 1/4" to 1/2" away), THEN turn the burner on. It will light gently with no "whump!" or big leap of flame.
Propane is heavier than air, so all new campers that have a propane system have a propane detector near the floor. It is set to go off at propane levels 1/20 to 1/100 what is necessary for an accidental ignition. (In other words, if the alarm goes off, it would still take 20 to 100 times as much propane to actually cause an accident.)
In this area (north of the Twin Cities in icy cold Minnesota),
everyone heats with gas; electricity is way too expensive and oil is just not available. Even so, I hear of a lot more fires started by electricity than I do gas. Propane is not exactly the same, but it is so similar that we use it in the same way throughout our campers.
In order of real danger, I would rate (most dangerous to least):
1) The drive to the campground.
2) The campfire
(1 & 2 may be in opposite order)3) Weather: T-storms, high winds, etc.
4) The camper's electrical system
5) Wild animals (from bats to bears)
(3 & 4 may be in opposite order)6) Pop-up roof collapse.
7) Falling out of the bunk end.
8) Propane accidents.
I should add that I have never heard of anyone being injured by numbers 3, 4, 6, 7, or 8 while camping, and I have never heard of anyone being injured by 6 or 7, camping or not.
In some areas, oil retailers have painted a false picture of the dangers of natural gas. It's not meant to be accurate or truthful; it is meant to get you to spend a fortune to rip out your gas heat and replace it with oil. They lie (like most advertisers) in order to get you to do something you would otherwise have no reason to do. Prove yourself smarter than they. Don't let their made-up TV pictures or selective "reporting" scare you.
Austin
We use propane for the furnace, fridge and to cook with. I feel very safe doing so. Having said that, we do a lot of cooking on a table top grill and are also learning to use the dutch oven cooking methods.
Propane has its uses, but if you feel unsafe using it or having it around by all means use coolers (we do for drinks), ceramic heaters. You can certainly get by very well at the camp ground without propane without looking out of place. The idea is to be relaxed and enjoying yourself when camping, if you can't be with propane around then don't take it.
My phobia is spiders :yikes:
Quote from: PLJThe idea is to be relaxed and enjoying yourself when camping, if you can't be with propane around then don't take it.
Although I wrote a long response justifying use of propane, PLJ has the the bottom line right. If you are not going to be able to relax around propane, don't bother with the propane. Camping is about having a good time, and if propane is going to spoil it, then get rid of it.
Austin
We have used everything in the PU that can be run on propane. It is great to have the amentities when you are boondocking, like hot water to wash dishes or take a shower. I was leary at first but after 4 years it is old hat to me. We love to have it available.
Mary Romeo
Thanks for the replies everyone :)
Believe me, you are not the only one trying to figure out just how safe/unsafe using propane based products are. We are very new to camping and are trying to figure out the same thing. We have a heater onboard as well and have never used it. We bought a porcelein heater for $20 which is electric. We figured since electric is included in the price of most campground sites; we might as well use it.
We are trying to determine how we plan on cooking our food; Right now we are using an electric microwave; electric skillet (best $20 I paid for one at Target!!!) and a George Foreman electric grill; not so sure about that one. It might be going back! We are trying to figure out the best way to cook steaks and burgers while camping! Right now we are using an LPG outdoor stove to boil water for coffee/tea which hooks up to the pop-up.
Quote from: AustinBostonIn order of real danger, I would rate (most dangerous to least):
1) The drive to the campground.
2) The campfire
(1 & 2 may be in opposite order)
3) Weather: T-storms, high winds, etc.
4) The camper's electrical system
5) Wild animals (from bats to bears)
(3 & 4 may be in opposite order)
6) Pop-up roof collapse.
7) Falling out of the bunk end.
8) Propane accidents.
I should add that I have never heard of anyone being injured by numbers 3, 4, 6, 7, or 8 while camping, and I have never heard of anyone being injured by 6 or 7, camping or not.
Hmmm... #6 almost got me - just over a year ago, while setting up our Niagara (electric lift), I was about to reach in and start pulling stuff out while the roof was going up, when there was a BANG, and the roof fell. The whiffle-tree stripped (I was shocked to find out the Coleman system had a single-point-of-failure with no safety backup).
As for #7 - the baby (almost 2 at the time) was scratched and sore after falling out of our hybrid, due to the new "safety feature" that allowed her to silently unzip the screen when we thought she was sleeping.
*******
However, I've never known anyone or anything injured by propane. I use it for everything I can.
Gasoline is FAR more dangerous, because it can splash (thus coat, soak) on things.
I am with those on the "use it for everything" side. Growing up our house was heated by a big industrial propane tank, as well as for cooking. Not sure how big the tanks was, but we never had any problems. We use our cook top every trip, and our furnace when needed. We have several accessories that run off of the little bottles as well and have never had a problem. Use your propane and have fun camping. Let us know what you decide to do either way.
We use propane as needed and when needed. We'll use electricity as often as we can when hooked up, but use propane any time and anywhere. We have 1 lb., 20 lb. and 30 lb. tanks. We use propane for most of our cooking, and use a propane lantern for lighting at night. We would use our propane heater if necessary, and our water heater on propane. The refrigerator runs on propane automatically if we're not plugged in.
Never had a problem with it and have no fear of it. We respect it, but without fear.
I have used propane for cooking and heating for many, many years of camping and have never had a problem of any kind. When winter camping we heat with a ceramic electric heater at night and propane during the day with a Buddy heater. The Buddy is a lot less trouble and much more economical to use than a furnace. I have never heard of any camper having an accident with propane use.....
As was mentioned earlier........my house is on propane...of course we live out by Lake Thunderbird....I myself don't have a problem with it except for the price to fill my home tank (250 gallons). We generally don't use the one in the camper just for the fact that we are camping. The DW loves to cook over an open fire, and she is mighty good at it too! If the weather ever forced us to cook inside the camper I wouldn't hesitate to fire up the old 2 burner for some sloppy joes or something of that sort.
Heather...I am also a 'freak' then cause I also have this propane phobia. Well anything to do with fire, though I have no problem with campfires :D . I rather cook on a campfire/grill or eat out then use propane. I think my paranoia is due to the fact that I am afraid I will make a mistake or forget some key info when using propane.
We use it sometimes, we have used the furnace once, and the stove top but we use it out side, I never cook in the pop up.. this past trip I kept smelling propane by my bunk ( front ) turns out when my husband changed tank line ( something chewed thru it) he did not make the connection tight enough and there was a leak. he retightened it and everything was fine. I use more electric when I can I figure I am paying for the Electric site... might as well use it:):) Electric skillet and fry pan work great...
Time and Time again, We read about and hear about structure fires caused by electricity. When was the last time any propane or natural gas explosions made the news. The truth is that if you do a little research you'll find out that propane and natural gas are two of the safest utilities there are. They just need to be respected and understood. If we are camping where electricity is supplied, we also use as many electric appliances that we can. But that's because of the cost factor- not for safety, that's for sure.
To asnwer you in another way.... if Propane were really dangerous, the Do-Gooders of this country would have had it out-lawed years ago! Being that propane is LP gas (Low Pressure) it is relatively safe.
The biggest danger from propane may be carbon monoxide, and about the only way that would become dangerous is if you had a FAULTY furnace or use the cooking appliance for heating purposes. This stuff burns so clean that using it for cooking will not present any kind of problem, just vent a window open, or roof vent...
Quote from: Gone-CampingBeing that propane is LP gas (Low Pressure) it is relatively safe.
Gee I thought that LP stood for Liquid Petroleum, not low pressure. :confused: I have high and low pressure LP regulators on my camper. I wonder what the high pressure regulator is for?;)
I have a propane fridge, stove and furnace in my camper. I do not use any of them. I find that the exhaust smell from the propane when the fridge is on really bothers me. I have a very keen sense of smell as noone else can smell it. I do all my cooking outside as I like a lot of space and hate the idea of all the grease inside the camper. I do use the propane camp stove outside, and have never had any trouble with it.
We are going to inspect the hoses, fittings and propane hookups to the stove this weekend before our first trip. This worries us as well. We will also bring our external coleman stove and smaller propane tanks with us as a back up.
We don't have any LP appliances. I am thinking of getting a small stove with the 1lb bottles soon though.
I have a small Yuma and want to try "primitive" camping. How do you know how many 20 lb LP tanks to take if you think it will get below or close to the freezing mark?
Quote from: TedI have a small Yuma and want to try "primitive" camping. How do you know how many 20 lb LP tanks to take if you think it will get below or close to the freezing mark?
Depends, Ted, on just what your going to run off that L/P ... a furnace, the cook stove, 3-way frig ... and for how long?
I've gotten by with a tank for just about a week, cook stove and sparingly using the furnace (setting thermostat at 55 for night time) with night temps dropping down into the 30's and low 40's.
Fly
Quote from: TedI have a small Yuma and want to try "primitive" camping. How do you know how many 20 lb LP tanks to take if you think it will get below or close to the freezing mark?
Our experience has been a little different but we set our thermo at 65 at night. We get about 3 days on a 20# tank running the fridge, stove and furnace. The furnace is the killer. We recently switched to a Mr Buddy portable heater. I hope that will last us longer.
A lot depends on the size of the PU (area that you are heating) and the # of people. There is just 2 of us and we have a large PU. More body heat will add BTUs to the camper.
A little something to think about: When using the shore power wherever you are, run a separate extension cord (the heavier the better) to run your electric appliances. Doing this bypasses the electrical system in the PUP.
The first trip out, we were running a ceramic heater to keep things warm and we had the coffee pot set on the timer to start brewing in the morning so we'd have fresh hot coffee and a warm PUP (life just don't get any better!!!). So we were just laying there enjoying the moment, the coffee pot kicked on and the heater kicked off. We were running off of the trailer circuit. Lesson learned.
Quote from: johno97007A little something to think about: When using the shore power wherever you are, run a separate extension cord (the heavier the better) to run your electric appliances. Doing this bypasses the electrical system in the PUP.
The first trip out, we were running a ceramic heater to keep things warm and we had the coffee pot set on the timer to start brewing in the morning so we'd have fresh hot coffee and a warm PUP (life just don't get any better!!!). So we were just laying there enjoying the moment, the coffee pot kicked on and the heater kicked off. We were running off of the trailer circuit. Lesson learned.
Hey, John ... looks like your first post here! Always good to hear from new & different sources!
I have a little Starcraft that's wired for A/C - however, don't have A/C. But there's a 120 outlet inside the cabin, in the vicinity of where the A/C would be if there were to be one, and that outlet is labeled for the A/C to be plugged into it. This is where I plug in the Pelonis ceramic heater and so far, to date, no tripped or blown fuses. Maybe that's just luck ...?
Fly
Quote from: johno97007A little something to think about: When using the shore power wherever you are, run a separate extension cord (the heavier the better) to run your electric appliances. Doing this bypasses the electrical system in the PUP.
The first trip out, we were running a ceramic heater to keep things warm and we had the coffee pot set on the timer to start brewing in the morning so we'd have fresh hot coffee and a warm PUP (life just don't get any better!!!). So we were just laying there enjoying the moment, the coffee pot kicked on and the heater kicked off. We were running off of the trailer circuit. Lesson learned.
WELCOME TO PUT
johno97007
When you say "(the heavier the better)", you are
very right.
If you are going to use an extension cord to run anything with a heating element, it's a good idea to use a 10 gage extension cord for a 25'-50' run. It's also not a good idea to plug anything else in the same line as a 1500w heater (or other device).
Be very careful about those orange "HD" extension cords, sold at most hardware stores. They can be as light as 16 gage and are typically 14 gage. 12 gage can be found in most hardware stores and may be adequate. 10 gage cords are a little harder to find but give you a margin of safety.
If you use a 50' 16 gage "HD" extension cord to run your ceramic heater, you can be assured that it
will over-heat and will most likely melt if left running for hours. Worst case scenario is that it could cause a fire.
Those "HD" cords are designed for using small, low wattage electric tools or a small lamp (100w or less) for short periods of time.
The only propane items I will use inside the trailer are the built-in cooktop, fridge, furnace, and water heater. Outside the trailer I use a propane stove, grill, and lantern by connecting a hose to the trailer's propane tanks.
Quote from: waveryWhen you say "(the heavier the better)", you are very right.
If you are going to use an extension cord to run anything with a heating element, it's a good idea to use a 10 gage extension cord for a 25'-50' run. It's also not a good idea to plug anything else in the same line as a 1500w heater (or other device).
While I am a subscriber to "the heavier is better," I'd love to hear your reasoning that 10 gauge is necessary for a 1500W heater.
NEC only requires 14 gauge in the walls of your house for 1800W (15 amp) circuits. Those wires are assumed to be in insulated walls, where heat will far more easily build up than an extension cord out in the open.
While I never do home wiring with less than 12 gauge (I'm in Minnesota, where they still let us do that kind of stuff), I would also put a 20 amp breaker (2400 watts) on that 12 gauge circuit. If I installed a 10 gauge circuit, I would expect to be putting in a 30 amp breaker (3600 watts), more than twice the capacity of any consumer portable electric heater, and since most are now limited to 1200 watts, it's
three times the capacity of those heaters.
If we were talking 12V, I would agree with you because the percentage voltage drop for 12V devices is much greater (a 10 amp load at 12V will have the same voltage drop as a 10 amp load at 120V, but the percentage drop is 10 times greater at 12 V). With 12V appliances, voltage drop is what is important. But with 120V appliances,
heating factor is what is important (for very long runs, more than 150 feet, voltage drop can become important, but that is several times the 25-50 foot length you mentioned). With a 1500 watt heater, you will not feel a temperature rise on a 14 gauge extension cord unless the cord is defective (or you are checking right near the plug; but you have not offered a better plug/outlet, so the 10 gauge cord at the plug would have the same heating factor as the 14 gauge).
----
For extension cords of 25-50 feet, one gauge larger than the appliance's own cord already has a large safety margin built in. It may be in fine print, but that appliance cord has a size marked on it; use an extension one size larger.
Note that the number is smaller for larger gauges, and normally only includes even numbers, so 14 gauge is one size larger than 16, 12 is one size larger than 14. If you have any doubts, check along the length of the cord after the device has been running for 15 minutes or so. Warm to the touch cords are not good; use a lower power setting or a larger cord.
Austin
What we use depends on if the kids are with us or not. I use the propane cooktop outside if the kids are with us. If we happen to be lucky enough to have a weekend sitter we cook over the fire. Our pup is basic though, no fridge or furnace, so I can't advise there. However, my biggest fear is having a campfire going all day with the kids around and one of them getting complacent around it and falling in.
Quote from: AustinBostonWhile I am a subscriber to "the heavier is better," I'd love to hear your reasoning that 10 gauge is necessary for a 1500W heater.
The length of the cord is the determining factor in what gage is appropriate. The longer the cord, the more resistance, the more resistance, the more heat that is generated where the plug goes into the outlet. A 25' cord can sometimes fall short in a camp space. I carry a 50'. I would never recommend putting 2 extension cords (of any size) together when running a 1500w heater over-night.
If you read my post, I stated, "12 gage can be found in most hardware stores and may be adequate. 10 gage cords are a little harder to find but give you a margin of safety."
If you plug a 1500w heater in a 50' long 12g extension cord and let it run all night, you may well find the plug melted to the socket in the morning. I have even had that happen with the 10g - 30a shore power cords that are commonly used on boats.
As the cord ages, it also builds up resistance because extension cords are made of stranded wire that breaks down with wear&tear and corrosion. Houses are wired with solid core wire that is permanently mounted and suffers almost zero wear & tear or corrosion. Solid core wire does not build up as much resistance as stranded wire either. Contrary to popular belief, electricity does not flow "through" a wire. The electrons flow over the surface of the wire. The smooth surface of solid core wire offers much less resistance than the rough surface of stranded wire. That is why you can wire your house with a smaller gage wire than you could if you were to use stranded wire. The advantage of stranded wire is that it is flexible and will take more punishment. However, over time, that bending will still degrade the wire.
Whenever I buy extension cords, I always get 10g (they can be found at Home Depot). They don't cost that much more and I've never had one over-heat in my camper.
How many times have you been to a campground and found that the electrical outlet has been melted? I've seen plenty. Guess how that happens...... :p
A lot of problems with this. Enough to tell me there are some things you clearly do not understand.
Quote from: waveryThe length of the cord is the determining factor in what gage is appropriate.
Partly true. The length of the cord and the current load are the determining factors.
QuoteThe longer the cord, the more resistance, the more resistance, the more heat that is generated where the plug goes into the outlet.
The first part is OK, but the second part is absolutely not true. The contact resitance at the outlet is the contact resistance at the outlet. The gauge of the cord is totally irrelevant to that resistance and to the heat generated at the outlet. A longer wire does have more resistance (assuming the same gauge), but the resistance is distributed along the entire length of the wire. Any given foot will heat the same wether the total length of the wire is 5 feet or 500 feet.
In fact, with a constant resistive load, there will actually be
less heating at the outlet with a longer cord because the increased resistance of the wire will lead to less total current flowing through the plug/outlet contact. Active and reactive loads such as motors or power converters may not behave the same because they may draw more current as the voltage drops, but for a resistance heater, the current would drop with a longer wire, all else being equal.
QuoteA 25' cord can sometimes fall short in a camp space. I carry a 50'. I would never recommend putting 2 extension cords (of any size) together when running a 1500w heater over-night.
I agree with this entirely.
QuoteIf you read my post, I stated, "12 gage can be found in most hardware stores and may be adequate. 10 gauge cords are a little harder to find but give you a margin of safety."
For a 1500 watt heater, 14 gauge is adequate, and 12 gives a significant margin of safety. Ten gauge, while doing no harm, is overkill.
QuoteIf you plug a 1500w heater in a 50' long 12g extension cord and let it run all night, you may well find the plug melted to the socket in the morning.
Ah, but, the problem is the
plug, not the
cord. the plug on a 10 gauge extension cord is
exactly the same as on a 14 gauge cord. If the 14 was going to melt, so would the 10. The problem here isn't the cord - it's the plug and the outlet.
QuoteI have even had that happen with the 10g - 30a shore power cords that are commonly used on boats.
There's the real problem, and it's one of perception. Boats = water (or humidity due to water proximity, and often salt, which is far worse than water/humidity) = corrosion = higher resistance = heat = melted plug. I'll bet you replaced the cord with a new, heavier cord, and it did not happen again. But when you replaced the cord, your replaced the plug with a new, uncorroded plug, too. Ever had the end that was protected from the weather overheat? The one with the 16 gauge appliance cord? How could the 16 gauge cord be enough when the 10 gauge one wasn't? I asure you they are both stranded. Maybe it was the plug, not the cord.
QuoteAs the cord ages, it also builds up resistance because extension cords are made of stranded wire that breaks down with wear & tear and corrosion.
While I do believe this is possible, I have seen 35 year old cords that are still serviceable
and safe. Both the plug and the outlet had been replaced, but the cord itself was fine. Also, if the wire is corroded, it is defective. Cords rated for outdoor use are supposed to be hermetically sealed.
QuoteHouses are wired with solid core wire that is permanently mounted and suffers almost zero wear & tear or corrosion.
I can assure you, house wiring can and does corrode. the connection points are exposed to more moisture and more oxygen (by a factor of at least 1000) than outdoor rated extension cords, because the extension cord is hermetically sealed.
QuoteSolid core wire does not build up as much resistance as stranded wire either.
Total rubbish. The gauge for stranded wire is not based on it's physical diameter, it's based on it's metallic cross-sectional area (sometimes specified in circular mils). It has
exactly the same resistance per foot as solid wire. Where did you get this idea?
QuoteContrary to popular belief, electricity does not flow "through" a wire. The electrons flow over the surface of the wire. The smooth surface of solid core wire offers much less resistance than the rough surface of stranded wire.
Someone has been mixing radio with house current. Surface effect does not even enter the measurable realm until frequency approaches 50,000Hz, nearly a thousand times the 60Hz frequency of house current. It does not become significant until you exceed about 150,000 hz. So if you are using your extension cords as broadcast antennas, maybe...
QuoteThat is why you can wire your house with a smaller gage wire than you could if you were to use stranded wire.
Wrong again. If I were to wire a 16 gauge solid wire circuit in my house (in most cases it would be illegal, but for some permanently installed appliances it could be allowed), it would have to be breakered at 10 amps, which is 1200 watts. As I write this, I have a two year old Titan brand heater (sold by Walmart for many years - there are millions of them out there) that is rated at 1500 watts (12.5 amps). It has a 16 gauge stranded wire cord and a UL seal. But your contention is it's the other way around, that the solid wire can take more current than the stranded! The rules (developed over a century of fire experience as well as some serious engineering) say the opposite.
QuoteThe advantage of stranded wire is that it is flexible and will take more punishment. However, over time, that bending will still degrade the wire.
Yes, it will - but it takes a long time. I have a 14 gauge extension cord that I used when I was 10 years old to trim the hedge. That's over thirty-five years of service. Every time it was used, it was coild and uncoiled, draged, stepped on, etc. I have had to replace both ends because the plugs have coroded, but that is not the contention here. Also, the cord is shorter than it once was - when I was about 14 I hit it with the trimmer and lopped off about 25 feet, so it's only 75 feet now. Boy, how I hated trimming the hedge. When we bought a house with a hedge, the first thing I did was rip up that hedge...um, sorry, that's a different story.
QuoteWhenever I buy extension cords, I always get 10g (they can be found at Home Depot). They don't cost that much more and I've never had one over-heat in my camper.
And I've used two 1500 watt heaters (though one was only at the 600 watt setting, so 2100 watts total) through a 14 gauge extension cord, all night long, with no heating. I don't reccomend it, BTW - the cord was overloaded - but it does demonstrate that 10 gauge is serious overkill, and that the real source of your problem is/has been defective or corroded plugs/outlets, not insufficient wire gauges.
QuoteHow many times have you been to a campground and found that the electrical outlet has been melted? I've seen plenty. Guess how that happens...... :p
I know exactly how it happens - a corroded plug not properly seated. It gets hot and eventually smokes the insulation. It has
nothing to do with the gauge of the wire and everything to do with the condition of the plug/outlet.
I will agree theat a heavier cord is better, but every problem you describe actually experincing is with the plug/outlet, not the cord! The plug and outlet are exactly the same for 14 gauge, 12 gauge, and 10 gauge extension cords (unless you get one rated for 20 amps, in which case you won't even be able to plug it in at many campgrounds).
The best advice is to use the heaviest extension cord you can, at
least one gauge heavier than the appliance, make sure the plugs are not corroded, and insert and remove the plug several times (to help remove surface corrosion), then make sure it is secuely seated in the outlet. But don't fret just because you don't have a 10 gauge cord. It's contribution to the whole equation is quite small.
If we really need 10 gauge extension cords for 1500 watt heaters, then we urgently need to be replacing the 16 gauge appliance cords they come with.
Austin
Wow, have I learned a lot.:)
I carry a 40' #12 extension cord in the popup and I have ran a 1400 watt ceramic heater all night with it plugged into the 30A trailer cord many times and it and the plugs do not even get warm. Austin is right about old and faulty plugs being the biggest problem with extension cords. When my extension cords are coiled up I always keep the plugs plugged together to keep them clean and protected against damage. I give the plugs a shot of WD-40 now and then and then blow off the excess with an air hose.
Extension cords seem to be on the low end of alot of campers maintenance and care lists. Over the years I have helped many campers solve their no electric problems and nine times out of ten it is the plugs on the extension cords that are the problem. They are usually broken or burned from loose connections. I always carry an extra set of 20A plups in the popup along with a couple of 20A duplex receptacles. Never know when I might need them.....
To date, I've never camped anywhere there has been electrical hooks, where the camper's H.D. 30'/30amp power cord could'nt reach the C/G electrical outlet. I'm like some others on the board that when paying for an electrical hook-up, I'll use whatever I can of it, saving the "other" fuels that I have to pay for on a regular basis. That goes, too, for outdoor lighting. Instead of using the Coleman lantern, I have a 25'/10amp extension cord (bought at Wally-Mart), that has a plastic case and you simply roll the cord up in the case, which makes it easy to store. Where I connect this extension cord is close to the camper patio light, in one of the exterior 110 camper outlets. Of course, this is for lighting, maybe a 60 or 75 watt bulb. I see my Pelonis 1500watt ceramic heater requires 12.5amps and the "fine print" on the unit's box says if one has to use an extension cord, "it shall be a No.14 AWG minimun size and not rated less than 1875W".
Fly
Quote from: flyfishermanBut there's a 120 outlet inside the cabin, in the vicinity of where the A/C would be if there were to be one, and that outlet is labeled for the A/C to be plugged into it. This is where I plug in the Pelonis ceramic heater and so far, to date, no tripped or blown fuses. Maybe that's just luck ...?
Probably not, if it is anything like my former Coleman Niagara...
Your PUP has a 30-A plug / service.
Your main cabin uses a shared 15-A circuit. The A/C plug (not used) is wired as a dedicated 20-A circuit. Thus, as long as your shore power is over 20-A, you will not blow that circuit unless BOTH are close to maxed out.
Usually, your AC will not pull more than about 13-15A (startup may be more). So, unless you are also maxing out your main cabin's 15A circuit, you are fine.
Here's a handy extension cord sizing guide:
http://www.yourepair.com/2006/11/19/extension-cords.html
A 1500W heater is 13.6 Amps at 110v.
Here is the rating of a 50' 12/3 at Home Depot. (15A MAX). Quite adequate but for about $5 more, you can get a 10/3 (not available online).
http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?CNTTYPE=PROD_META&CNTKEY=misc%2fsearchResults.jsp&BV_SessionID=@@@@0178444112.1166129397@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccdfaddjjefihemcgelceffdfgidgng.0&MID=9876
Put 100046665 in the "Search" box.
The big problem is, a lot of CG have insufficent service for extreme load times, like when it is very hot and a lot of people are running air conditioners or cold when a lot of campers are using heaters.
It is very common for the voltage at your campsite to drop to 100-105V or lower when the demand is heavy. At 100V your 1500W heater will take 15A to run and slightly more to start.
I hope this helps.
Quote from: waveryHere's a handy extension cord sizing guide:
http://www.yourepair.com/2006/11/19/extension-cords.html
A 1500W heater is 13.6 Amps at 110v.
The big problem is, a lot of CG have insufficent service for extreme load times, like when it is very hot and a lot of people are running air conditioners or cold when a lot of campers are using heaters.
It is very common for the voltage at your campsite to drop to 100-105V or lower when the demand is heavy. At 100V your 1500W heater will take 15A to run and slightly more to start.
I hope this helps.
If it is a resistance heater, that is not true. As the voltage drops, the current will also drop, almost in proportion to the voltage drop. So a resisitance heater such as a ceramic or cube heater that has a 1500 watt output at 120 volt input will have about a 1050 watt output at 100 volts and a current draw of 10 amps. This is not exact, because the resistance is not perfectly flat across temperature, but it will be within 20 watts. The amount of power used for the fan is relatively insignificant.
For air conditioners and heat pumps, you are correct - a voltage drop leads to an increase in current draw and an increase in internal heat as well. That's why a voltage drop will burn out a cheap air conditioner - the motor windings are not designed for the additional current and will overheat.
As far as it being "very common," most campgrounds that have problems soon find themselves faced with very angry campers when the A/C kicks out at 100 degrees because of electrical problems. I've only seen voltages below 110V once, but it does happen.
I would not rely on the web site you linked to, either. This statement:
"If you are using a 15amp Circular saw and you are 200 feet away from your power source you better get the thicker 10amp cord even though it costs a bit more. For one thing on a cheap 14g or 12g wire your saw won
911...911...can't we all just get along, lol?
I will admit that I just learend alot from this post...however, you guys have scared me with all the tit-for-tat that is going along!
Austin and Wavery...I have been helped alot in he past by your post...both to me directly and also just reading others that you guys have posted. Thanks for the information!
Let's just wave the white flag of truce and go camping somewhere!
Take care and remember to duck when the words are being slung around, lol!
Quote from: Brantime911...911...can't we all just get along, lol?
I will admit that I just learend alot from this post...however, you guys have scared me with all the tit-for-tat that is going along!
Austin and Wavery...I have been helped alot in he past by your post...both to me directly and also just reading others that you guys have posted. Thanks for the information!
Let's just wave the white flag of truce and go camping somewhere!
Take care and remember to duck when the words are being slung around, lol!
Sorry, maybe I am getting out of hand...it's happened before.
Austin
Quote from: Brantime911...911...can't we all just get along, lol?
I will admit that I just learend alot from this post...however, you guys have scared me with all the tit-for-tat that is going along!
Austin and Wavery...I have been helped alot in he past by your post...both to me directly and also just reading others that you guys have posted. Thanks for the information!
Let's just wave the white flag of truce and go camping somewhere!
Take care and remember to duck when the words are being slung around, lol!
I, for one, was getting a great deal of electrical info out of these exchanges. And I don't see where anyone has been disrespectful. AND ... since they these exchanges no way involved you ... may I suggest you not bother reading them if they are any way upsetting to you.
Fly
I'm sure glad my cord and heater didn't read all this before the first time we took our camper out. While we were loading I told DW to grab a cord. When we were sitting up I found she had picked up a 35ft, 16g. cord. It carried the 1500W heater all nite. The ends didn't burn, the cord didn't melt. I know the cord was overloaded but it was laying on gravel, and less than 20* F. (I have a 45ft, 12G cord in the trailer now)
BTW, my skillsaw doesn't like 14G cords, I only buy 12G. The little 16G was made up just to power a floracent lite in a shop I had for awhile.
Quote from: flyfishermanTo date, I've never camped anywhere there has been electrical hooks, where the camper's H.D. 30'/30amp power cord could'nt reach the C/G electrical outlet. I'm like some others on the board that when paying for an electrical hook-up, I'll use whatever I can of it, saving the "other" fuels that I have to pay for on a regular basis. That goes, too, for outdoor lighting. Instead of using the Coleman lantern, I have a 25'/10amp extension cord (bought at Wally-Mart), that has a plastic case and you simply roll the cord up in the case, which makes it easy to store. Where I connect this extension cord is close to the camper patio light, in one of the exterior 110 camper outlets. Of course, this is for lighting, maybe a 60 or 75 watt bulb. I see my Pelonis 1500watt ceramic heater requires 12.5amps and the "fine print" on the unit's box says if one has to use an extension cord, "it shall be a No.14 AWG minimun size and not rated less than 1875W".
Fly
FlyYou are right. The best thing to do is to use your campers 30A cord. If your heater blows the 15A circuit breaker for your outlets (which it shouldn't), it would certainly blow the CG 15A circuit breaker at the outlet while using any extension cord. I think that most camper power cords are made with 10g wire. You should have very little (if any) voltage loss through the campser's power supply.
The bottom line is, if either end of the power cord gets too hot to touch, it is best to unplug it. It doesn't matter what size it is.
BrantimeI respect your concern and I can see where you are coming from. I'd hate to see PUT become like Yahoo or some other sites where some discussions can resort to nothing short of "Dirty Fighting".
We often have lively discussions like this on PUT. Seldom does it degrade to bickering or heated exchange. In fact, I don't remember ever seeing that here.
There are a lot of newbies that come here to learn about camping. Most of these discussions have a lot of valuable info in them. IMHO, when it comes to camping safety, too much info is better than too little.
If any particular discussion becomes boring or uninteresting to anyone, they can simply move to a different post.
I'm sorry that this discussion caused you concern.
Our camper came with 3 burner stove/oven, propane/12v/120 fridge and furnace. We didnt like the idea of cooking food inside and getting the food smell and grease on the canvas and other fabrics so we never used the stove/oven except to see that it worked when we got the camper. We always camp with hookups so the fridge runs on 120v. Last year we removed the stove/oven and small camper fridge. Installed new counter top, built in a microwave and installed a 4cu.ft. 120v fridge.
We cook outside with electric skillet, small propane grill(6-8 burgers) and now adding a dutch oven. I've got a colman white gas stove and several backpacking stoves but more work is involved with those.
If its cold and rainy all day we will run the propane furnace until bedtime, then its ceramic heaters. Ones a built in and the other is portable and we use those most of the time.
I have to admit that I have never used the propane stove in the PU. I prefer to do all our cooking outside the PU using our dual fuel Coleman three burner camp stove or grill / Dutch oven over the campfire.
But the fridge, water heater, and furnace are used when needed.
We have been PU camping over 15 years, and I never had a fear using propane appliances inside the PU.
It's probably as safe as the electrical circuits in there.
The only time we've used propane was to see if the the furnace worked when we bought it...:eyecrazy:...if we have W/E, we're set for the weekend.
We always cook over the fire, and use an electric heater......we don't have a battery or connections for one.:(
Everything on our pop up runs on propane! We even fill the air mattress with a little gas every once in a while! :sombraro:
Gotta love that sound when the furnace fires up!
I never cook inside the camper either because of getting grease, food, smell on the canvas. So how long does the propane in the tank last?
I had another camper that I used the propane 2 times in the first two years I had it but never checked after that and I had that camper 8 years.
I just bought a Taos in Sept with a full tank and I wonder will the stuff eventually leak out?
Quote from: shellcjtI just bought a Taos in Sept with a full tank and I wonder will the stuff eventually leak out?
You should be good until Y'3'K... :p