Hi, folks, I'm the owner of an '03 Coleman Carmel. I recently read (with some dismay) the story of a man who barely escaped serious injury when his roof collapsed while he was setting up. Something to do with the whiffle-tree, whatever that is. While I've been posting here for around a year, I'm basically a newbie, and I'm wondering if I need to do something to maintain the pop-up, or maybe cut a 2x4 to set up next to one of the four metal "poles" that extend the roof as a failsafe. Many thanks to all who respond!
I had also read posts that stated that the roof had come down on a camper and I got fairly worried about it. DH would always make sure we could hear the ratcheting sound when the roof would go up. And I can say that, at least a few times, that roof got over cranked and didn't sound right going up.
If, when cranking up the roof, you feel the weight is trying to bring the roof down, you need to check to see if you over cranked the roof. Several campers here know how to correct the problem. I did it once and don't feel that I can give good advice as to how to fix it- but the folks here did and I corrected the problem one weekend before we left and I felt much better.
Also, read the owner's manual on cranking the roof. It does tell you how to not over-crank it and how to remedy it. Once I knew what a wrong crank felt like and it was corrected, I felt much more at ease and didn't worry about the roof coming down.
If your door is in place, the roof will not come down. If you try to put the roof down while the door is in place you will break the lift system. If it will make you feel better you can put two 2 x 4s cut to the proper length on two of the lifter arms cubside front or back and then the opposite corner on the road side of the trailer. :)
My current camper came with aluminum braces that fit around the extended posts when camper is popped up, acting as fail-safes. The odds of your roof collapsing, especially when your door is in place, would be pretty minimal, but in a society where people sue McDonald's because the coffee was actually hot, I suppose the aluminum braces are more to protect Viking from lawsuits than campers from injury.
Having said that, putting a couple of 2x4's on the opposite corners is probably not the worst idea. If it gives you peace of mind, go for it. It sure won't hurt, and you can always burn them for firewood!
Quote from: darkstarI recently read (with some dismay) the story of a man who barely escaped serious injury when his roof collapsed while he was setting up.
Sometimes, I wonder if those stories are made up by people trying to sell hardsides. Nah, a salesman would never tell a lie like that!
On a more serious note, it is possible on Coleman/Fleetwood trailers (as kathybrj pointed out) to over-crank the roof while taking down, and causing a potential problem the next time the roof is cranked up.
What happens is the ratchet mechanism temporarily stops working. If this happens, you won't hear the rapid click-click-click of the ratchet as you crank up, and the crank will "uncrank" if you release the crank pressure. This is one time you do not want a child cranking the roof.
The fix is relatively easy. Crank up the roof. Somewhere along the way (usually near the top) the winch will
kathunk! and the ratchet will start working again. Until then, DO NOT LET GO OF THE CRANK, as the roof will come down, and the handle will spin - fast. Impact with the spinning crank will be painful if not injurious.
The roof will not come down once you are completely set up. The Coleman/Fleetwood trailers use four lift cables, and you would have to loose two of them for the roof to partly collapse, you would have to loose all four (and not have the door set up) for it to collapse completely. Not going to happen.
Austin
This is not a new concern ... years past, right here on PUPTimes, there have been postings on this subject. A favorite remedy, as I recall, was to cut two 2X2's, the length from the top of the base side wall to the roof, and place the first one in the corner across from the door and the other in the opposing corner. There seemed to be a lot of comfort in just knowing there was extra support for the roof, even if a big tree limb fell on it! There was some humor in a post where a camper that was employing this system and forgot all about the supports and tried to lower roof.
He was going through all kinds of mental anguish before he suddenly realized the poles were still in place!(LOL) - but then took the strain off the supports and lowered the roof with no bad effects on the lift system.
Fly
I completly agree with everything said here. I recently pondered the same question and subject. The short of it, I cut two 2x2s for support and I use velcro straps to keep them in place along side of the lifters. If nothing else, the supports are a good piece of mind while one is laying there on the bunk, looking up at the roof, and wondering if......Hmmmmm. :yikes: Granted the possibility of more than one cable breaking at the same time is...well...more probable that something else (door or another cable) gives under the pressure of having to hold the additional load if one did break. My school of thought, pease of mind, and cheap too!
Cliff
I'll add a couple of things.
First I've been in campers with single cable systems when the cable broke. 99% of the time it breaks when raising or lowering. When no one should be in the camper anyway. I was in one that broke in the middle of the night (mainly becasue I ahd over 250 pounds on the roof and was to lazy/tired to remove it before running the roof up. Trust me the door stopped the roof from moving more than an inch or two. We didn't even know it till the next day when the door was sticking when we opened it.
Either way with supports or the door holding the roof up, you'll need some help lifting the roof to either free the doot and close it up or/and remove the wood/poses/etc you used for corner supports.
SO don't worry about "getting trapped" during the night even if the roof fails.
As a side note The only documented severe injury with a roof collapsing was a woman in a 1996 Dutchman PU whose roof collapsed when lowering it and she was jusr exiting the camper and the edge of the roof hit her directly on the top of the head.
BUT, come to find out the roof was waterlogged and weighed as reported a 1000 + pounds. SO the causes were the owner not maintaining his camper as required and being in the camper when lowering the roof.
I figure I've got a better chance of hiting the lottery than getting hurt from a PU roof.
What brand of PU did the guy who's roof collapsed own? Different PU manufacturers use different lift mechanism designs. For a Fleetwood/Coleman to collapse once already set up, certain unlikely things would need to occur:
1. The ratchet pawl would need to break and shatter allowing the wiffle tree main screw to "unscrew" backwards, (very unlikely), allowing the roof to slowly fall. Or....
2. All four corner cables would need to snap simultaneously, allowing the roof to drop. Or....
3. Components of the steel wiffle tree mechanism whould need to spontaneously catestrophically fail, (shatter/crack), allowing the roof to fall. Or....
4. And all of these assume you have not set up your screen door yet. Have you ever tried to lower your roof with the screen door still in position? It can't be done. The screen door will support the weight of the roof.
That's why Fleetwood PUPs do not have extra safety supports.
Quote from: mike4947As a side note The only documented severe injury with a roof collapsing was a woman in a 1996 Dutchman PU whose roof collapsed when lowering it and she was jusr exiting the camper and the edge of the roof hit her directly on the top of the head.
BUT, come to find out the roof was waterlogged and weighed as reported a 1000 + pounds. SO the causes were the owner not maintaining his camper as required and being in the camper when lowering the roof.
I figure I've got a better chance of hiting the lottery than getting hurt from a PU roof.
I read this couple's web page and I agree, the Lottery looks like pretty good chances compared to this. I haven't had problems with the roof, thankfully, but I'm pretty confident that the door will keep that roof up. Also, I don't let anyone in the pup once I'm ready to bring down the roof.
I purchased a 2007 Fleetwood Highlander Niagara with a power lift system in May,2007. On August 13th we took it out for it's "Maiden voyage" to Sequoia National Park. Upon arrival we began the process of setting up. When the roof was raised about 2 ft. a loud popping noise was heard and the roof came crashing back down. Upon inspection by the Fleetwood dealer, the whiffle tree "failed" causing the roof to fall back down.
Birdlodge
Quote from: AustinBostonSometimes, I wonder if those stories are made up by people trying to sell hardsides. Nah, a salesman would never tell a lie like that!
On a more serious note, it is possible on Coleman/Fleetwood trailers (as kathybrj pointed out) to over-crank the roof while taking down, and causing a potential problem the next time the roof is cranked up.
What happens is the ratchet mechanism temporarily stops working. If this happens, you won't hear the rapid click-click-click of the ratchet as you crank up, and the crank will "uncrank" if you release the crank pressure. This is one time you do not want a child cranking the roof.
The fix is relatively easy. Crank up the roof. Somewhere along the way (usually near the top) the winch will kathunk! and the ratchet will start working again. Until then, DO NOT LET GO OF THE CRANK, as the roof will come down, and the handle will spin - fast. Impact with the spinning crank will be painful if not injurious.
The roof will not come down once you are completely set up. The Coleman/Fleetwood trailers use four lift cables, and you would have to loose two of them for the roof to partly collapse, you would have to loose all four (and not have the door set up) for it to collapse completely. Not going to happen.
Austin
First off, welcome to the forums.
And wow, sorry to hear of your problem. As someone up above said, putting up or taking down is when the lift system is most likely to fail. This is also the reason that there should never be anyone inside while cranking up or down.
Hope nobody got hurt. But I'd assume that if someone did, you'd have mentioned it.
As a side note, if you do any work on the wiffle tree, make sure that you put everything back as it was intended. The cover of the wiffle tree is an integral part of the lift system. Without the cover in place properly, the screw inside can bow out causing system failure.
Thank you. No one was hurt, and the dealer did make all necessary repairs under warranty, plus re-imbursed all expenses incurred on the camping trip to h---.
Quote from: fritz_monroeFirst off, welcome to the forums.
And wow, sorry to hear of your problem. As someone up above said, putting up or taking down is when the lift system is most likely to fail. This is also the reason that there should never be anyone inside while cranking up or down.
Hope nobody got hurt. But I'd assume that if someone did, you'd have mentioned it.
As a side note, if you do any work on the wiffle tree, make sure that you put everything back as it was intended. The cover of the wiffle tree is an integral part of the lift system. Without the cover in place properly, the screw inside can bow out causing system failure.
At one of our first campouts with this group several years ago, while raising our 2002 Coleman Niagara roof (after a 3-4 hour drive), there was a loud SNAP, and the roof crashed down. It had gone up about 2 feet.
Nothing we could do except whine, hang out for an hour, and then drive back home (the baby was NOT pleased about being crammed back into her car seat for several more hours!)
It was the whiffle tree. It is a single point of failure while cranking up or down - the screw threads on it stripped.
Here is a picture of the whiffle tree:
(http://www.caravansplus.com.au/images/40131100b.jpg)
Here's the post about our sad day:
http://arveeclub.com/showthread.php?p=99023&#post99023
I had a fairly old coleman rebel camper until recently. On one extremely cold morning While cranking it up the roof collapsed. It had been up for about 10min when this happened. But I was trying to crank it up a little higher since the door would not quite fit... The nylon threaded nut on the whiffle tree stripped out. The cause was the extreme cold (below 15F) and a rodent had built a nest in the cover for the whiffle tree causing a bind.. That camper was at least 20 years old, and the failure was my fault really for not checking things out before the trip. But we lifted the top, stuck the door in and enjoyed the trip without any problems... The door can support the roof and that camper is still being used by my hunting buddy every season..... Fog
Yet another reason why I stuck with starcraft for my 2nd 'vintage' camper.
Old starcrafts, (and many others, too) use a cable and pully system. and if there was ONE spot that could break, and make the whole roof come down, it would be where the single winch cable joins the harness that connects ALL the cables. In order for that to happen, all the fibers in the cable would have to break (you would see fraying first) or the connectors would have to fail, (and there are 2 or 3 on each loop), or the eyebolt would have to break or bend. (not something that happens fast)
We HAVE been having a problem with the eyebolt bending open - so we swapped it out for a molded, one-piece eyebolt. No more problem.
However the camper came with ONE of two original aluminum 'pole covers', so I made more - out of aluminum 2 x 4's. they are really inexpensive, (less than $3 for a 10' length) and you can get them at most home-imrovement stores.
Here's the original that came with the camper:
(http://inlinethumb53.webshots.com/17140/2783888080100639314S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://family.webshots.com/photo/2783888080100639314MYsjTE)
Here's the ones I made
(http://inlinethumb06.webshots.com/18437/2886326560100639314S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://family.webshots.com/photo/2886326560100639314mksfhN)
I made them more so that they would help shed water away from the telescoping poles - because in my camper, the floor in the rear was completely rotted out in the back corners and the posts had fallen thru the floor. We guessed that water had flowed inside the poles and pooled at the base.
So the covers DO shed water away from the joints of the poles, but they also can hold the roof up if needed. They hold to the poles without velcro, tape, or zip ties, and they pop off easily. they are lightweight and won't fall over and bonk someone on the head. (this DID happen while we were fixing the lift system; took the weight off the roof, and a 2X4 fell over on my HEAD! OUCH!) They were really easy to make, and they fit perfectly over the poles.
Laura
Quote from: mike4947I'll add a couple of things.
First I've been in campers with single cable systems when the cable broke. 99% of the time it breaks when raising or lowering. When no one should be in the camper anyway. I was in one that broke in the middle of the night (mainly becasue I ahd over 250 pounds on the roof and was to lazy/tired to remove it before running the roof up. Trust me the door stopped the roof from moving more than an inch or two. We didn't even know it till the next day when the door was sticking when we opened it.
Either way with supports or the door holding the roof up, you'll need some help lifting the roof to either free the doot and close it up or/and remove the wood/poses/etc you used for corner supports.
SO don't worry about "getting trapped" during the night even if the roof fails.
As a side note The only documented severe injury with a roof collapsing was a woman in a 1996 Dutchman PU whose roof collapsed when lowering it and she was jusr exiting the camper and the edge of the roof hit her directly on the top of the head.
BUT, come to find out the roof was waterlogged and weighed as reported a 1000 + pounds. SO the causes were the owner not maintaining his camper as required and being in the camper when lowering the roof.
I figure I've got a better chance of hiting the lottery than getting hurt from a PU roof.
They also weren't using the safety supports as they claimed they didn't know. To me, the whole story sounds fishy as if they were wanting to make some money.
I know this is an old topic, but wanted to emphasis that the safety supports weren't being used when someone was in the camper!
Have a good one.
While some disagree, I'll say it again. IMO, the Goshen lift system is the best out there. It's tubes are underneath the camper for easy inspection, cleaning and lubing. The system is repaired easily since it's all external and no walls or cabinets need to be taken down.
The process is simple but it does rely on one main cable that pulls a header that pulls the other 4 cables. The cables can be easily inspected and lubed. You have 2 safety supports to use at each corner should the main cable break or the winch fail.
Simple, easy to fix, easy to maintain, and is now the popular lift system used on Forest River, Coachmen/Viking, and Starcraft. Jayco and Fleetwood use their own proprietary lift systems that are internal.
Just an opinion, have a good one.
Quote from: Mike UpWhile some disagree, I'll say it again. IMO, the Goshen lift system is the best out there. It's tubes are underneath the camper for easy inspection, cleaning and lubing. The system is repaired easily since it's all external and no walls or cabinets need to be taken down.
Starcraft has two lift systems ~ their own patented sytem that they use on their top of the line models and larger units and the Goshen lift used on the smaller and the more cost competive models, like my Venture model.
Not too long after I had the Starcraft I broke a leaf spring just tooling down the road. As it ended up, the spring was covered under warranty by Dexter and come to find out, the unit was under sprung, and I now have stronger leaf springs. During all these happenings I got acquainted with the tech folks at Starcraft and it was kind of indicated that they had less trouble with the Goshen lift, i.e., less warranty claims.
To date, I've not had a minute's problem with my Goshen lift. And, the lift has the saftey rails that fit over the lifts and are placed on opposite corners. The saftey rails, plus the door (if it's closed), would ensure the roof could never come down.
Fly
Quote from: flyfishermanStarcraft has two lift systems ~ their own patented sytem that they use on their top of the line models and larger units and the Goshen lift used on the smaller and the more cost competive models, like my Venture model.
Not too long after I had the Starcraft I broke a leaf spring just tooling down the road. As it ended up, the spring was covered under warranty by Dexter and come to find out, the unit was under sprung, and I now have stronger leaf springs. During all these happenings I got acquainted with the tech folks at Starcraft and it was kind of indicated that they had less trouble with the Goshen lift, i.e., less warranty claims.
To date, I've not had a minute's problem with my Goshen lift. And, the lift has the saftey rails that fit over the lifts and are placed on opposite corners. The saftey rails, plus the door (if it's closed), would ensure the roof could never come down.
Fly
That must be the name for my 'covers' that came with my '73 starcraft. Somewhere, the previous owners lost one, but they were easy to make myself with those aluminum 2X4s (they are almost identical to the material used to make the originals)
Since you have them - does anyone have any idea what the purpose is of the wide 'hook' and ruber bumper shown on the one original safety cover shown above? (Loook about 2/3 of the way up the first post photo) I've never figured out what it was supposed to be for - it doesn't match up to anything in the camper..... Heck, I may have that safety cover on the wrong post or even upside down for all I know! LOL! But they DO work.
Laura
Quote from: ScouterMomThat must be the name for my 'covers' that came with my '73 starcraft. Somewhere, the previous owners lost one, but they were easy to make myself with those aluminum 2X4s (they are almost identical to the material used to make the originals)
Since you have them - does anyone have any idea what the purpose is of the wide 'hook' and ruber bumper shown on the one original safety cover shown above? (Loook about 2/3 of the way up the first post photo) I've never figured out what it was supposed to be for - it doesn't match up to anything in the camper..... Heck, I may have that safety cover on the wrong post or even upside down for all I know! LOL! But they DO work.
Laura
I'm just guessing but it looks like a handle to be used to remove the device. The rubber bumper may only be intended to keep the handle from getting smashed flat during storage.
Quote from: waveryI'm just guessing but it looks like a handle to be used to remove the device. The rubber bumper may only be intended to keep the handle from getting smashed flat during storage.
While this makes sense, the opposite is also possible...it may be to prevent the handle from tearing up whatever it is put on (or whatever is put on it) during the vibration of transit. If that handle were laid down on a lenoleum floor and driven down some second-rate roads, it could create a warranty issue for the manufacturer.
Austin
Well, I don't think it's a handle - as you don't really need anything to pull it off with - they just kinda slide on and fit snug, but not tight. It is not hard to get on or off at all.
I thought it might be some kind of support for an awning pole, or frame. the little rubber bumper is exactly the same as the bumper that is (was) on the wall of the camper behind the door knob to keep the knob from denting the aluminum.
They are not mentioned at all in the manual copy I have - I didn't know what it was for at first, and had to ask someone on the board. Sure wish I could see how they were used on an original back in 197?
laura
The saftey rails for my Starcraft Venture have no such rubber bumpers so I would'nt have any idea.