A few days ago someone posted a question asking if pop ups were allowed in Yellowstone campgrounds. Many on the site said that yes you could camp in a pop up in all but one campground. That campground being Fishing Bridge Campground, which by the way is the only campground in the park with full hook ups.
Well I decided to contact the park and get their official word. Here's a copy of the email I sent them.
"I was curious why there are no tents or pop ups allowed in Fishing Bridge Campground. We would like to consider staying there but we have a pop up.
Thanks
Here is the response:
"Dear Kell,
Tents and pop up trailers are not allowed at Fishing Bridge because it is an RV park only. That is the only campground that has hook ups at it, and it would be a waste to put a tent on one of those sites since there are so few of them in the park. You can camp at any of the other campgrounds in the park with a tent or a soft sided trailer.
National Park Service
Visitor Services Office
Yellowstone National Park, WY 82190
(307) 344-2109
yell_visitor_services@nps.gov"
To that I followed up with the following:
"Teressa,
Thank you so much for responding to my questions. I do need your help in understanding your response. You said," Tents and pop up trailers are not allowed at Fishing Bridge because it is
an RV park only." Well my pop up is considered an RV by the RV Dealers and RV Manufacturers of America, the pop up may be considered entry level but never the less it is classified as an RV. You also said, " That is the only campground that has hook ups at it, and it would be a waste to put a tent on one of those sites since there are so few of them in the park." The hook ups are the very reason we are interested in this campground. My pop up has an Air Conditioner that we like to run in the summer, a heater we like to run in the winter, a refrigerator that we run all the time, lights we like to use at night and several other electrical gadgets that we use while camping. We also hook up to a water source so we can use our sink and our shower while camping. As far as I can tell these are the same reasons someone in a larger unit wants to stay in a full hook up site. I'm not sure I understand why allowing me to stay in this campground would be considered a waste, if I'm willing to pay the same price for the site as the next guy and if I'm going to be using all of the hook ups available, it's certainly not a waste to me.
Thanks for your time, I look forward to your response."
As soon as I get a response, I will post it here to let you see it.
Something smells fishy at Fishing Bridge Campground. Oh by the way last year when we were in Yellowstone, the actual bridge that they call Fishing Bridge has "NO FISHING ALLOWED" signs posted on the bridge. That cracked me up.
CajunCamper
I know there are alot more Parks out there that are doing this that you may realize. I don't have a pop-up anymore, but I've heard tales of places that I can't take my Toy Hauler either. I even know of a couple places that if you don't have a monster motorhome you are not welcome. Just don't go to those places.
I'll definately be keeping an eye on this thread. I don't have any plans on heading that far west any time in the next 5 or more years, but this is a National Park, not a private campground. If it was a safety issue ( heard it was because of the bears) , that would be one thing, but to discriminate against me because of the RV I choose, that's not acceptable.
I suspect that the letter was written by some flunky that has no idea what the reason is.
If you don't like the answer you get, try the KOA in West Yellowstone. It is about 2 to 3 miles outside of the west entrance to Yellowstone. The town is nice the campground is nice and they are happy for you to be there. We felt comfortable leaving the pop-up there for a few days while we would just drive our vehicle into the park in the morning then back to the campsite in the evening. We also saw a lot of wildlife driving in near dawn and back out near dusk.
We understood that soft sides were not allowed at most campgrounds in the park because of bears.
Quote from: MomboTNIf you don't like the answer you get, try the KOA in West Yellowstone. It is about 2 to 3 miles outside of the west entrance to Yellowstone. The town is nice the campground is nice and they are happy for you to be there. We felt comfortable leaving the pop-up there for a few days while we would just drive our vehicle into the park in the morning then back to the campsite in the evening. We also saw a lot of wildlife driving in near dawn and back out near dusk.
We understood that soft sides were not allowed at most campgrounds in the park because of bears.
Not liking the answer is not the issue here. It's the reason for the answer. I started looking into Yellowstone for a long trip next year (Florida to Wyoming and back), saw the restrictions and assumed it was because of bears as well. That, I can understand and agree with.
However, I have as much right to use the campground as somebody with a 40-foot diesel pusher. My pop up has an electrical, water and sewer hook-up (grey water, but you gotta dump it somewhere). Plus, this is not a private campground, it's a NATIONAL PARK!!!! Our tax dollars are going to support this place, and they are going to bar me because I don't have a hard-sided camper?
Thank you Cajun. My dad helped lead the opposition in the 1970s when they wanted to ban RVs from national parks altogether. (we had a hard-sided TT we took to the Smokies on a regular basis). Looks like its time to follow in his footsteps and start protesting (where did I put that guitar sheet music for Kumbaya? Now I'm regretting cutting my ponytail off three years ago.).
I always understood it to e because of bears also......
Well it's time to "stir the pot" so to speek
We need to start contacting our representatives regarding our feelings on this issue. As has been said, this is a public park supported with tax dollars. I hae jsut as much right to camp in my pop up as someone who is in a Class A coach.
Here are some suggestions to start stirring the pot:
Contact yur Senators (2) (http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm)
Contact your Representative (1) (http://www.house.gov/writerep/)
A letter to Mary A. Bomar, Director, National Park Service (sorry I can't find an e-mail address right now)
Quote from: Tim5055I always understood it to e because of bears also......
Well it's time to "stir the pot" so to speek
We need to start contacting our representatives regarding our feelings on this issue. As has been said, this is a public park supported with tax dollars. I hae jsut as much right to camp in my pop up as someone who is in a Class A coach.
Here are some suggestions to start stirring the pot:
Contact yur Senators (2)
Contact your Representative (1)
A letter to Mary A. Bomar, Director, National Park Service (sorry I can't find an e-mail address right now)
This might be a bit premature. Our reps and senators have bigger fish to fry, plus they're on vacation right now (lol)! I would be willing to bet that the reply Cajun got to his question was an off-the-cuff response from someone who has little authority and even less knowledge. As soon as the response gets sent to the right person - for instance the superintendent of Yellowstone - there will be a "correction" issued. There is no way official policy conforms to what Cajun was told. No way.
-Speak
Edited to add: The Superintendent of Yellowstone is Suzanne Lewis. I haven't yet been able to locate her e-mail address.
Quote from: SpeakEasyThere is no way official policy conforms to what Cajun was told. No way.
It squares with what is on the official web sites.
From the NPS web site at
http://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/camping-in-yellowstone.htm"Fishing Bridge RV Park is the only campground offering water, sewer, and electrical hookups, and it is for hard-sided vehicles only (no tents or tent-trailers are allowed)."The fact that hookups and hardsides only are in the same sentence implies that hookups are the reason. The page does not mention bears.
Xanterra is the concessionare who runs the campgrounds, and their web site says:
http://www.travelyellowstone.com/camping-250.html"Situated by Fishing Bridge near beautiful Yellowstone Lake, this RV Park features sites with full hook-ups (30 amp electricity, water and sewer.) It's designed for hard-sided units only with a maximum length of 40'. The area also offers a coin laundry, pay showers, store, electricity, water, sewer, hook-ups and a sanitary dump station." (emphasis added). Designed for hardsides? Hello? How does one "design" a campsite for a hardside? BTW, there are all back-in sites. The campground isn't designed for hardsides, it just has water/electric/sewer, and they think that should exclude pop-ups.
The statement is repeated at their Fishing Bridge specific page:
http://www.travelyellowstone.com/Fishing-Bridge-RV-Park-255.htmlNeither the NPS nor the Xanterra web sites say anything about bear problems being an issue at Fishing Bridge campground/RV park.
Austin
Quote from: SpeakEasyThere is no way official policy conforms to what Cajun was told. No way.
Sorry, but I disagree. I already went through this a couple of years ago with the State of Florida designating campgrounds for Class A coaches only. It took numerous e-mails to the Governor of Florida to get the park service to really understand that they were descriminating against a "class" of citizens, i.e those who like pop up campers.
Quote from: Tim5055Sorry, but I disagree. I already went through this a couple of years ago with the State of Florida designating campgrounds for Class A coaches only. It took numerous e-mails to the Governor of Florida to get the park service to really understand that they were descriminating against a "class" of citizens, i.e those who like pop up campers.
I remember that. It consumed a lot of posts either here or on PUX (or both). The funny thing is, pop-uppers are probably more likely to leave their camper (and therefore go out and spend money) than Class-A'ers, so the real advantage to Florida would be the other way around.
Austin
Quote from: AustinBostonI remember that. It consumed a lot of posts either here or on PUX (or both). The funny thing is, pop-uppers are probably more likely to leave their camper (and therefore go out and spend money) than Class-A'ers, so the real advantage to Florida would be the other way around.
Austin
It was here, it was actually before PUX came into existence. It's funny because Dave & I have had conversations regarding dollars spent by pop up campers vs. Class A and he has been told exactly what you said by campground owners. Pop up campers tend to use the store and other amenities more while Class A campers tend to stick to themselves.
Quote from: Tim5055Sorry, but I disagree. I already went through this a couple of years ago with the State of Florida designating campgrounds for Class A coaches only. It took numerous e-mails to the Governor of Florida to get the park service to really understand that they were descriminating against a "class" of citizens, i.e those who like pop up campers.
I hope you're wrong about the nps.
Here's the contact information for Suzanne Lewis:
307- 344-2002 / Suzanne_Lewis@nps.gov
Here's the contact information for Mary Bomar:
202-208-3818 / Mary_Bomar@nps.gov
-Speak
Quote from: CajunCamperA few days ago someone posted a question asking if pop ups were allowed in Yellowstone campgrounds. Many on the site said that yes you could camp in a pop up in all but one campground. That campground being Fishing Bridge Campground, which by the way is the only campground in the park with full hook ups.
Well I decided to contact the park and get their official word. Here's a copy of the email I sent them.
"I was curious why there are no tents or pop ups allowed in Fishing Bridge Campground. We would like to consider staying there but we have a pop up.
Thanks
Here is the response:
"Dear Kell,
Tents and pop up trailers are not allowed at Fishing Bridge because it is an RV park only. That is the only campground that has hook ups at it, and it would be a waste to put a tent on one of those sites since there are so few of them in the park. You can camp at any of the other campgrounds in the park with a tent or a soft sided trailer.
National Park Service
Visitor Services Office
Yellowstone National Park, WY 82190
(307) 344-2109
yell_visitor_services@nps.gov"
To that I followed up with the following:
"Teressa,
Thank you so much for responding to my questions. I do need your help in understanding your response. You said," Tents and pop up trailers are not allowed at Fishing Bridge because it is
an RV park only." Well my pop up is considered an RV by the RV Dealers and RV Manufacturers of America, the pop up may be considered entry level but never the less it is classified as an RV. You also said, " That is the only campground that has hook ups at it, and it would be a waste to put a tent on one of those sites since there are so few of them in the park." The hook ups are the very reason we are interested in this campground. My pop up has an Air Conditioner that we like to run in the summer, a heater we like to run in the winter, a refrigerator that we run all the time, lights we like to use at night and several other electrical gadgets that we use while camping. We also hook up to a water source so we can use our sink and our shower while camping. As far as I can tell these are the same reasons someone in a larger unit wants to stay in a full hook up site. I'm not sure I understand why allowing me to stay in this campground would be considered a waste, if I'm willing to pay the same price for the site as the next guy and if I'm going to be using all of the hook ups available, it's certainly not a waste to me.
Thanks for your time, I look forward to your response."
As soon as I get a response, I will post it here to let you see it.
Something smells fishy at Fishing Bridge Campground. Oh by the way last year when we were in Yellowstone, the actual bridge that they call Fishing Bridge has "NO FISHING ALLOWED" signs posted on the bridge. That cracked me up.
CajunCamper
Okay, here's an update. I received another reponse from this person at Yellowstone and here's what she said.
"Dear Kell,
Your trailer is considered an RV, but Fishing Bridge is hard sided only, so since you have a pop up that is not completely hard sided and thus you cannot stay at Fishing Bridge. There are probably better reasons why soft sided trailers are not allowed at Fishing Bridge, but unfortunately I am not aware of what they are. Sorry, but you'll have to camp somewhere beside the RV park."
That's pretty cut and dry and it doesn't seem that she is even interrested in finding out what she calls the better reasons are. I kinda have my feathers ruffled. I think it's time to contact the person in charge. I have always had the greatest respect for those that work for our National Parks, any contact that I have had with them, they have always been very helpful and very curteous. If they didn't know an answer to a question, they made sure they found the answer and got back to me. Yep, we all deserve a better answer on this issue than the one this woman gave me. I'll keep you informed of future responses from the people in charge.
CajunCamper
Quote from: CajunCamperOkay, here's an update. I received another reponse from this person at Yellowstone and here's what she said.
"Dear Kell,
Your trailer is considered an RV, but Fishing Bridge is hard sided only, so since you have a pop up that is not completely hard sided and thus you cannot stay at Fishing Bridge. There are probably better reasons why soft sided trailers are not allowed at Fishing Bridge, but unfortunately I am not aware of what they are. Sorry, but you'll have to camp somewhere beside the RV park."
That's pretty cut and dry and it doesn't seem that she is even interrested in finding out what she calls the better reasons are. I kinda have my feathers ruffled. I think it's time to contact the person in charge. I have always had the greatest respect for those that work for our National Parks, any contact that I have had with them, they have always been very helpful and very curteous. If they didn't know an answer to a question, they made sure they found the answer and got back to me. Yep, we all deserve a better answer on this issue than the one this woman gave me. I'll keep you informed of future responses from the people in charge.
CajunCamper
I have to say that is really well below the quality of response I would have expected from the National Park Service. That response is almost as bad as the policy itself.
Austin
This would still be a dumb reason, too - but i'm wondering.....
at one time, I looked on e- bay and other places to get ideas to make my own tent camper awhile back. I found some really interesting designs for 'home made' campers. most of which were some version of a tent on a box, or similar to the european pop-ups with canvas tops (not hardtops like most of ours are.) These really would be 'tents on wheels' and would not have had the amenities found in PUPs - that are available even in my 1973 PUP. (which has electric, water and furnace connections, and had a shower option even back then)
back when the national parks were first opened to camping public, say - in the 20's and 30's, you could buy a hard-sided camper - (remember Airstreams? My folks lived in one on Toledo University campus after they both got out of the Navy in 1942 and my Dad was finishing his Engineering Degree) But at that time, I think the only 'tent campers' were truly more like tents than like campers and mostly home-made. which means they would not have been able to use 'full hook-ups' (sewer, water and electric.)
It might be (and sounds like) a case of "We've always done it that way, and we're not going to question 'why' now, we're just going to keep to the old way even though it doesn't make sense anymore"
But times have definately changed, and it's time to give PUPpers a place to make full use of their investment on public property, too. It's fine to let PUP's use the tent sites if they choose to dry camp - but it's not really fair to FORCE us to.
It ISa form of discrimination.
laura
Quote from: SpeakEasyOur reps and senators have bigger fish to fry, plus they're on vacation right now (lol)!
I agree that the reply from the National Park Service makes absolutely no sense, and was poorly stated.
The legislative aides and interns that would address this concern for your local legislator would be able to address this concern at most any time.
We have to be careful what we ask for, however.
Many public campsites, state, local, and federal, cannot accomodate a motorhomes or trailers of a certain size due to the roads or other width/height constraints. A counter argument for allowing soft-sided campers in the specific site could be made that the governmental agencies discriminate against a class of RV owners by not making all locations accessable for Class A's and large fifth wheels. Do we really want all campsites changed to be accomodate all types of recreational vehicles to avoid descrimination between different classes of camping vehicles? Do we want all campsites homogonized to a standardized accessability even if the expense means closing some existing campsites?
I see this argument about access to public park lands also on discussion groups of other outdoor activities. Some, (not all, certainly) mountain bikers want all hiking trails opened up for their sport. The same applies to some ATV riders, 4-wheel off roaders, horse campers, rock climbers, fishermen, paint-ball combatants, geocachers, base jumpers, and hunters. Enviromental purists want to extinguish all human activity and presence from any of these natural areas.
By trying to balance the recreational goals of all of these competing interests, the environmental whackos, commercial mineral and logging companies, personnel management, water and flood control, park infrastructure maintaince, security and law enforcement, marijuana farms on park properties, poaching, search and rescue, etc., with a limited buget, the Park service has to make a lot of unpopular decisions. The rationale for those decisions should be defensible to the public. The decision to make the campsite available for hard-side campers might make perfect sense to us if properly explained. The response CajunCamper got explains nothing and is unaccecptable.
Quote from: sacrawfBy trying to balance the recreational goals of all of these competing interests, the environmental whackos, commercial mineral and logging companies,
Just a detail - There is no commerical mineral or logging activities in the National Parks. Those activites exist within the National Forests, but National Forests are managed by the Forest Service, not the National Park Service.
Otherwise, some valid points. I don't agree with them all, but it's something to keep in mind.
Austin
I was under the impression that Fishing Bridge was for hardsided stuff because of bears. This cg is supposed to be in a high bear population area.
The cg we stayed at was a lot more in the wilderness and imo, a lot more liking to bears than Fishing Bridge.
Actually, with their generators, higher capacity water and holding tanks, the class a's may be better suited for dry camping.
If I remember right, and I may not be remembering correctly, that cg was the closest one to the park's showers.
Quote"Dear Kell,
Your trailer is considered an RV, but Fishing Bridge is hard sided only, so since you have a pop up that is not completely hard sided and thus you cannot stay at Fishing Bridge. There are probably better reasons why soft sided trailers are not allowed at Fishing Bridge, but unfortunately I am not aware of what they are. Sorry, but you'll have to camp somewhere beside the RV park."
Do I get this right? I can camp there in my "Hard sided" Aliner
Pop Up, but a hard sided with canvas ends such as a hybrid cannot. Hmmmmm... bet my A would look real cute dwarfed among the big RVs .
It all sounds pretty exclusionary to me, is this a vendor run CG ?
Quote from: AustinBostonI have to say that is really well below the quality of response I would have expected from the National Park Service. That response is almost as bad as the policy itself.
Austin
Doesn't surprise me one bit ... since the federal governement has led the way to "out sourcing" ... ALL the quality, competent, conscientious, common sense prone employees have been replaced, and polices are now being administered by a bunch of politically connected pseudo-intellectuals.
What was that old naval acronym ~ S.O.P. ~ "standard operating procedure".
As a side-note to this discussion, we just got back from a week-long trip to Grand Teton National Park. We stayed most of the time at Colter Bay. We were camping with a couple who has a 5-er. We camped in a traditional n.p. campground (i.e., smallish sites suitable only for tents, popups, or small tt's or htt's, with no hookups, etc.), while our friends stayed in an adjacent campground designated for R.V's that had full hookups (literally a stone's throw away from the tent/popup campground).
But the interesting thing is, even though it's a national park, and barely 20 miles south of Yellowstone, the R.V. park apparently did not have any restrictions concerning tents or popups. I saw at least two popups among the Class C's and 5'ers.
I'm not sure which concessionaire runs the Colter Bay R.V. park, but I would assume it's not Xanterra. But the precedent is there at an near-by n.p. for non-hardsided campers to use an R.V. campground. Why should they be inconsistent on this one?
Just to throw my $.02 worth in, while I realize that this is probably more about the principal of the matter than the practicalities of camping, I wouldn't want to camp in the R.V. part, hookups or not. I don't know what Fishing Bridge is like, but the Colter Bay R.V. sites were not nearly as nice as the popup/tent sites. They are basically stacked one on top of another. Plus, they cost over $40/night compared to $15 (I think) for the popup/tent sites.
Yes, they have electricity and water for you. But there are pay showers right there, and if your battery threatens to die on you, there are outlets in the restrooms. I took my battery charger along, just in case (but ended up charging it at our friends' site). But again, it's probably more the principal of the matter that's in question. And I fully agree that the policy at Fishing Bridge stinks.
I just emailed Xanterra asking about the exclusion to see if I get the same answer. I also emailed my representative to see if I get a response from her. Just curious if I do here from her. I like stirring up the pot.
I'm with a previous poster...I think it is an outdated policy. There seems to be a preconceived impression of what a pop up is and unless you've seen the newer units...you'd never guess what one may contain. We had gentleman stop us at a filling station somewhere on the back roads of SC to remark that he's never seen such a big pup and what is it like inside? We have a Hemlock.
I'm willing to bet that the folks who work at the parks with these policies really just assume that a pup would have no reason to use those facilitites. Obviously it's not because of the bear because if it were ...they would have said so right off. But don't be surprised if all of a sudden that is the main excuse.
This should be interesting.
CC
Quote from: aw738I just emailed Xanterra asking about the exclusion to see if I get the same answer. I also emailed my representative to see if I get a response from her. Just curious if I do here from her. I like stirring up the pot.
Bump.
aw, did you ever get a response from Xanterra?
Austin
I didn't get any response form Xanterra. I did get a call from my senator but I was at work when her office called so I didn't really get a response from her either.
After reading a few guide books on Yellowstone, I have come to believe that the reason tents and pop ups are not allowed is because according to the guide books the Fishing Bridge area is noted as an important habitat for Grizzly Bears. I feel this is a legitimate reason for the policy, the problem is, the people that interact and answer the publics questions have no idea why the policy is in place. I'm all for public safety, but I wish the park service would make sure that everyone representing them is well informed on policies.
CajunCamper
But does anyone believe that a hard sided camper would stop a grizzly from getting in if he wanted?
Quote from: ptbrauchBut does anyone believe that a hard sided camper would stop a grizzly from getting in if he wanted?
I don't believe it, not after seeing what they can do to a car!
I think the real issue is mass confusion.
There was a document (study/report/project/etc.) that recommended permanently closing all facilites at Fishing Bridge, which included a campground, an RV park, an automotive repair facility, and a visitor's center. The report was based on bear activity, and the report wanted everything closed.
Because the people of Cody, Wyoming thought that would reduce the number of people using the east entrance (and therefore not passing through or spending money in Cody), only one part of the reccomendation was followed.
The Fishing Bridge Campground was closed (note: NOT the Fishing Bridge RV park), and nothing else. So it is technically correct that the campground was closed because of the bears, but it was not because of bear-human encounters, or because tents/soft-sided trailers posed an unusual risk; it was just easier to close from a political point of view, to try to compromise between those who wanted no humans anywhere near the bears and those who wanted all the money they could get.
So someone will talk about the "Fishing Bridge Campground" and get different answers...it may be the answer about why the campground (which is closed) doesn't allow tents (it always did when it was open, but now it doesn't allow anything...because of the bears), or it may be why the RV Park (which is open) doesn't allow tents. Since they always allowed tents and tent trailers in the campground, (which was right near the RV Park) it used to be easy to just shift them from the RV park to the campground. Once in that habit, it did not change when the campground closed.
IMHO, either nobody in the NPS has figured out how to fix this, or their advice has fallen on the deaf ears of higher-ups who are sick of listening to and trying to sort out political problems with Fishing Bridge.
Austin
Quote from: ptbrauchBut does anyone believe that a hard sided camper would stop a grizzly from getting in if he wanted?
Only if the steel was at least 1/2 inch thick, and the door was latched with heavy-duty deadbolts and held on with high-security hinges...and the only windows were bulletproof or smaller than 10"x10"
Austin
Besides being a PUP owner, I also own a small log cabin in Colorado between Crested Butte and Gunnison. Three years ago we had a very agressive bear wreaking havok in our area. He clawed and ripped a heavy shutter that we bolt over our door while we are away. We found it on the ground-wrenched off the hinges. The shutter is made of1x6 s and 2x4's and is... uh.. was very heavy duty. Luckily he did not get inside at that time. We think he was scared off.
Then the bear broke through our neighbors kitchen window while they were away and ransacked their place, pulling cabinets off the wall and turning over a large refrigerator. In all he broke into 5 cabins in one months time.
True a PUP would be quicker to rip up than a hard sided rv but a thin aluminum walled camper is no match if a bear truly wants inside.
MMmm... what about those old Apache pop up trailers that have the folding hard sides. Do they count as a hard side RV? Just a thought....
Quote from: Tim5055It was here, it was actually before PUX came into existence. It's funny because Dave & I have had conversations regarding dollars spent by pop up campers vs. Class A and he has been told exactly what you said by campground owners. Pop up campers tend to use the store and other amenities more while Class A campers tend to stick to themselves.
Also Class A campers tend to have two air conditioning units and use much more electricity costing the campground more money. Typically folks who can afford Large class A campers don't conserve energy because they don't have to. Even a popup that is connected to electricity doesn't tend to use much electricity.