I think that this subject comes up often enough that it may be worthwhile to have an entire thread devoted to the discussion.
I think that some of us have been very dogmatic about "NEVER" using the stabilizers as part of the leveling process (myself included) and others tend to avoid the subject. However, I think that enough newbies question this topic enough to warrant some discussion.
The most important part of this theory is sometimes missed IMO. It is important to raise your roof before putting your stabilizers down to avoid any binding in the roof lifts. It is also important to have the trailer as level as possible before you attempt to raise the roof, also to avoid any binding. Therefore, your camper should be level before even thinking about your stabilizers.
The proper way to level your PU is, first you level side to side by lifting the low side tire by pulling the trailer onto blocks or using a Bal Leveler:
http://www.norcoind.com/bal/products/consumer/leveling_products/tireleveler.htm Then you level front to back with the tongue jack.
Really the main issue behind not using the stabilizers to level the trailer is to not bind the roof supports while raising the roof. The secondary issue is the frame of the trailer and the weight that the stabilizers can support.
The manufacturers design PUs as light as they possibly can because that is what the market demands. Therefore, the stabilizers are designed only strong enough to handle the load of stabilizing and not lifting the camper. If you lift the camper in one corner and put (say) a 300# load on it, a person walking to that portion of the camper could add enough additional weight to damage the stabilizer.
The other issue is the frame. Particularly vulnerable is the side of the camper with the door opening. The other side of the camper has the additional support of the box walls of the camper. The side with the door has only the strength of the light frame.
The real problem comes in when someone decides that if they just give the stabilizer another crank or two and the stabilizers on the other side are already down. This is a recipe for a bent frame. If the stabilizers on the opposite side of the camper are down and you give the opposing stabilizers a crank or two, something may give because you are actually lifting the entire weight of the camper with one stabilizer. In some cases, this can be thousands of pounds on a stabilizer designed to support 500#.
If you absolutely feel compelled to give that stabilizer another crank, be sure to raise the apposing stabilizers. In doing so, you will achieve your objective with much less force and much less strain on your frame. 50# of added burden, doing it this way will be the same as 1000# of added burden if you lift against the apposing stabilizers.
The fact is, a small amount off level would normally not be noticed anyway other than possible binding of the lifting mechanism, while lifting the roof.
Wavery,
Putting the stabilizers down before raising the roof IS recommended by some manufacturers. People need to read their owner's manuals to find out if it applies to them or not. (For the record, Coleman/Fleetwood says DO NOT put the stabilizers down first.)
Also, most manuals say to level front to back then side to side, checking front to back level again.
Here is the correct order per my manual (Coieman/Fleetwood)
Level front to back
Level side to side
Recheck front to back level
Raise roof.
Set stabilizers.
These last two MAY be reversed depending on the manufacturer. Again, there is NO substitute for reading the owner's manual.
Quote from: sewseriousWavery,
Putting the stabilizers down before raising the roof IS recommended by some manufacturers. People need to read their owner's manuals to find out if it applies to them or not. (For the record, Coleman/Fleetwood says DO NOT put the stabilizers down first.)
Also, most manuals say to level front to back then side to side, checking front to back level again.
If that's what the manual says, I'd do it that way. As long as the camper is level without using the stabilizers to level it, I see little difference myself. The important part is not to use the stabilizers to do the leveling. If you do, the lifts could be pointing anyway but straight up. A recipe for binding the lifts. I think that's why Fleetwood (and others) say, "Don't do it".
I find it hard to believe that any manual would say, "level front to back then side to side, checking front to back level again". I'm not saying you're wrong. It just doesn't make any sense to me. If you level front to rear first with your tongue jack, how do you pull up onto blocks without damaging your tongue jack??? :confused:
My 2002 Coleman manual merely says, "If a level campsite cannot be obtained, use of leveling blocks under the tires is recommended to level the trailer from side-to-side before lowering stabilizers". Then, it goes on to describe the use of the tongue jack with a note:
"Do not use the stabilizers to adjust the level of the trailer. Damage to the stabilizers could occur".
My 6 yr old son likes to help setup. I usually let him do the stabilizers. Now I'm getting nervous. I better supervise that task.
Quote from: DrayMy 6 yr old son likes to help setup. I usually let him do the stabilizers.
Actually, that may be a smart way to do it -- he probably is nowhere near as strong as you, so he won't crank them too tight! Think of him as a natural "torque-wrench" to not over-tighten the stabilizers :)
Quote from: DrayMy 6 yr old son likes to help setup. I usually let him do the stabilizers. Now I'm getting nervous. I better supervise that task.
He's probably the best suited for the task (at least for another year or two :p ). I don't think that he will be lifting the camper with the stabilizers for a while. :sombraro:
Quote from: zamboniActually, that may be a smart way to do it -- he probably is nowhere near as strong as you, so he won't crank them too tight! Think of him as a natural "torque-wrench" to not over-tighten the stabilizers :)
hehehe!! great minds think alike. :sombraro: You're just more creative and eloquent about it.
Quote from: sewseriousLevel front to back
Level side to side
Your manual does not say that. Better read it again.
Austin
Quote from: waveryThe real problem comes in when someone decides that if they just give the stabilizer another crank or two and the stabilizers on the other side are already down. This is a recipe for a bent frame. If the stabilizers on the opposite side of the camper are down and you give the opposing stabilizers a crank or two, something may give because you are actually lifting the entire weight of the camper with one stabilizer. In some cases, this can be thousands of pounds on a stabilizer designed to support 500#.
While I agree with your intent, the only way that you would get "thousands of pounds" from one more crank is if that crank could lift a wheel entirely off the ground. Until the wheels leave the ground, they hold some weight. As the pop-up risies, they rapidly hold less and less. Giving it "one more crank" adds a larger amount of weight, so that (air numbers here) if the first extra crank added 100 lbs, the second would add 150 lbs (250 total), the third add 225 lbs (475 total), etc.
BTW, the rear bunk end acts as a lever. 150-200% of the weight on the bunk ends goes on the stabilizers. So when a big guy like me goes to bed, I can put 500 lbs (250 lbs each) on the rear stabilizers. If they are already holding 400 lbs, guess what happens. :eyecrazy: The front bunk should not have this issue because of the tongue jack.
Austin
Quote from: AustinBostonWhile I agree with your intent, the only way that you would get "thousands of pounds" from one more crank is if that crank could lift a wheel entirely off the ground. Until the wheels leave the ground, they hold some weight. As the pop-up risies, they rapidly hold less and less. Giving it "one more crank" adds a larger amount of weight, so that (air numbers here) if the first extra crank added 100 lbs, the second would add 150 lbs (250 total), the third add 225 lbs (475 total), etc.
Austin
AB,
Read what I said again. I think that you may have mis-understood. I said, "The real problem comes in when someone decides that if they just give the stabilizer another crank or two
and the stabilizers on the other side are already down."
If the opposing stabilizers are down, The weight on the axle is totally relieved almost immediately when over jacking. ALL of the camper weight (less part of the axle) is now being supported by the jacks as you continue applying force on the other jacks. It only takes a few clicks. Even then, you are mostly overcoming the flex of the frame. That is where the real issue begins. Over-flexing the frame, especially on the door side, could lead to the frame buckling.
Okay, you're right, it doesn't since I looked again. My bad. My point still stands, read your manual, which I should have done instead of going by memory. Different manufacturers recommend different things.
But Leveling first
Raise top
Stabilizers down
OR
Level first
Stabilizers down
Raise top
is the way it goes depending on the camper. IIRC, Rockwood/Flagstaff says to put the stabs down before popping up.
Quote from: waveryAB,
Read what I said again. I think that you may have mis-understood. I said, "The real problem comes in when someone decides that if they just give the stabilizer another crank or two and the stabilizers on the other side are already down."
If the opposing stabilizers are down, The weight on the axle is totally relieved almost immediately when over jacking. ALL of the camper weight (less part of the axle) is now being supported by the jacks as you continue applying force on the other jacks. It only takes a few clicks. Even then, you are mostly overcoming the flex of the frame. That is where the real issue begins. Over-flexing the frame, especially on the door side, could lead to the frame buckling.
I understood you perfectly well. It's the "another crank or two" part, combined with the fact that you forgot that the wheels are on springs, that I am objecting to.
Until the camper is lifted beyond the point of spring compression on the axles, the axles are holding part of the weight, and for the first inch to inch and a half, they are still holding nearly all of it. For our camper, an inch of lift is about 4 revolutions of the crank, so "another crank or two" isn't going to be more than a half inch. If they go another crank or two, they are pushing their luck...and another and they are asking for trouble. It is certanly not all-or-nothing, and it is not linear (so there is a point where you are taking up only a small amount of weight per crank for a while, then picking the weight up quickly, then once the jacks are holding most of the weight it takes a lot more cranking to get all of it...if you get that far). You have to lift the whole camper quite a bit before the point is reached where the jacks have all of the camper's weight.
BTW, I used to think like you did on this, but a few times jacking up the trailer to service the bearings (and seeing how far I had to go before the springs were not under compression) clarified things for me.
Note to the reading impaired: DO
NOT DO WHAT IS WRITTEN BELOW UNLESS YOU READ IT IN YOUR MANUAL.
Years ago, there was a small pop-up owner (I think he owned one of the original Colemans, pre-Fleetwood), where the owner quoted the manual that said basically to fix a flat, lower the nose jack, put the rear stabilizers down, and raise the tongue jack...
don't try that with today's trailers.Austin
Man! You guys got me to thinking. I've always done it LSR (Level - Stabilize - Raise). Well I just checked the manual on my '04 Rockwood and it's quite confusing. On page 16 it says to park the camper on a level site (doesn't mention what to do if it isn't level); then to chock the wheels, lower the stabilizers, raise the roof, pull bunk ends etc. Then on page 17 it tells you how to level the camper. Front to rear only - doesn't say anything about side to side. If someone were to literally follow the steps -though they're not listed as steps- you would put everything up THEN level it -but only front to rear. But it does have a warning not to use the stabilizers to level. Anyway, the way I do it is level first, side to side while still connected to TV. Disconnect from TV and level front to rear using the tongue jack. Stabilizers down
Quote from: campdaddyMan! You guys got me to thinking. I've always done it LSR (Level - Stabilize - Raise). Well I just checked the manual on my '04 Rockwood and it's quite confusing. On page 16 it says to park the camper on a level site (doesn't mention what to do if it isn't level); then to chock the wheels, lower the stabilizers, raise the roof, pull bunk ends etc. Then on page 17 it tells you how to level the camper. Front to rear only - doesn't say anything about side to side. If someone were to literally follow the steps -though they're not listed as steps- you would put everything up THEN level it -but only front to rear. But it does have a warning not to use the stabilizers to level. Anyway, the way I do it is level first, side to side while still connected to TV. Disconnect from TV and level front to rear using the tongue jack. Stabilizers down
Quote from: campdaddyMan! You guys got me to thinking. I've always done it LSR (Level - Stabilize - Raise). Well I just checked the manual on my '04 Rockwood and it's quite confusing. On page 16 it says to park the camper on a level site (doesn't mention what to do if it isn't level); then to chock the wheels, lower the stabilizers, raise the roof, pull bunk ends etc. Then on page 17 it tells you how to level the camper. Front to rear only - doesn't say anything about side to side. If someone were to literally follow the steps -though they're not listed as steps- you would put everything up THEN level it -but only front to rear. But it does have a warning not to use the stabilizers to level. Anyway, the way I do it is level first, side to side while still connected to TV. Disconnect from TV and level front to rear using the tongue jack. Stabilizers down
Quote from: sewseriousIIRC, Rockwood/Flagstaff says to put the stabs down before popping up.
Actually, logic says it is probably simpler than that. In practice, you don't want to extend the stabilizers until the camper is at it's "max dispersed weight". That means... extending the bunks and slide-outs. That way, you know that your stabilizers are holding the "proper" weight.
Think of it this exaggerated way:
1) Level your rig
2) Stabilize it
3) Extend slide-out -- which transfers a chunk of weigh from the "center of gravity" to "all-in on the slide-out side"
4) You don't notice, because it was "level" when you stabilized... then you never un-stabilized to check the new pressure on the stabilizers.
If you have a slide... then, when you side-by-side level the camper, factor in a tiny "fudge factor". Anticipate (with previous EXPERIENCE) the extra swing-weight the slide applies to that side. Level the rig that way.
IDEALLY: When you are popped up and slid out, your rig is level. Then, you crank down the STABILIZERS. Note, these are not called "LIFTERS" :) Their only goal is to counteract the peoples & animals from walking around...
Quote from: zamboniActually, logic says it is probably simpler than that. In practice, you don't want to extend the stabilizers until the camper is at it's "max dispersed weight". That means... extending the bunks and slide-outs. That way, you know that your stabilizers are holding the "proper" weight.
Think of it this exaggerated way:
1) Mostly level your rig (anticipate the slide!)
2) Extend slide-out -- which transfers a chunk of weigh from the "center of gravity" to "all-in on the slide-out side"
3) Ensure the slideout still keeps the rig level.
4) Stabilize it
5) You don't notice, because it was "level" when you stabilized... then you never un-stabilized to check the new pressure on the stabilizers.
If you have a slide... then, when you side-by-side level the camper, factor in a tiny "fudge factor". Anticipate (with previous EXPERIENCE) the extra swing-weight the slide applies to that side. Level the rig that way.
IDEALLY: When you are popped up and slid out, your rig is level. Then, you crank down the STABILIZERS. Note, these are not called "LIFTERS" :) Their only goal is to counteract the peoples & animals from walking around...
QUESTION; If popup frames are as weak and flimsy like some people around here believe, and can be easily warped or bent by over cranking the stabilizers, then why do we not see a lot of lopsided popups around ? Where are all the complaints about weak and bent frames? Where are all the threads on how to replace or straighten a warped or bent frame? I have owned four popups over the years and have always given the stabilizers on all of them an extra half or full crank for more stability with no problems. If the door had a bind I would slightly lower the stabs on the door side to correct it. Never had a warped or bent frame and never had to replace a damaged stabilizer. I have seen many campers over crank stabilizers to level their popups and not have a problem with bent frames. After leveling I have raised the top with the stabilizers up and down and have never noticed any difference or had had any binding problems..
Just a tiny pinch of common sense tells me that hitting a large pothole and towing on a rough and bumpy road will place more severe up and down and twisting forces on a popup's frame than any human could ever do by overcranking a stabilizer. In over 70,000 miles of towing popups, I recall seeing only two lopsided popups going down the road. Both had flat tires and one of them was mine.......
Quote from: campdaddyHere's somethnig interesting I found in the manual. On page 19 the manual says to use the door side rear stabilizer to adjust the door fit by slightly raising or lowering the jack.
Planned frame warping. I love it.
Austin
Quote from: Old GoatQUESTION; If popup frames are as weak and flimsy like some people around here believe, and can be easily warped or bent by over cranking the stabilizers, then why do we not see a lot of lopsided popups around ? Where are all the complaints about weak and bent frames? Where are all the threads on how to replace or straighten a warped or bent frame?
Because it doesn't show up as a bent frame. It shows up as "hard to crank up" because the lift mechanism has bound up because the frame has warped. We get plenty of those. We've also had a number of threads over the years about "I can't get the door in place."
A pop-up with a frame bent so bad that it shows as a bent frame becomes a utility trailer.
Austin
Quote from: sewseriousWavery,
Putting the stabilizers down before raising the roof IS recommended by some manufacturers. People need to read their owner's manuals to find out if it applies to them or not. (For the record, Coleman/Fleetwood says DO NOT put the stabilizers down first.)
Also, most manuals say to level front to back then side to side, checking front to back level again.
Here is the correct order per my manual (Coieman/Fleetwood)
Level front to back
Level side to side
Recheck front to back level
Raise roof.
Set stabilizers.
These last two MAY be reversed depending on the manufacturer. Again, there is NO substitute for reading the owner's manual.
hmmmm..help me with this..I've always done side to side first, until I bought a BAL leveler. I would park look at the situation and then drive on one of those lego block things first. then I would level the front to back. Isn't the front to back adjusted by raising and lowering the tongue which requires unhitching? or do I have the terms mixed up?
I did however never cranked my roof up with the stabilizers down...something I learned from the GURU's here on PUT :sombraro:
To me it just made sense to do the side-to-side leveling first since the axle isn't dead center in the middle. So I do that with the BAL leveler, then do the front-to-rear, and then recheck my side-to-side. I don't see what's wrong with putting the stabilzers down prior to lifting the roof. As stated by so many here, they are just that, stabilizers, and they're not loading the frame such that any binding would occur. Plus, with all the slop in the lifting arms and the movement in the roof (as you can see by just pushing on the roof once it's up), it's not like we're talking about precision instruments here.
Just my rookie 2 cents worth.
The only utility trailers made from popups that I have seen were made from old worn and rotted out ones that were to far gone to restore. If a frame is bent so badly that it cannot be used under a popup, then it will not be worth a hoot as a utility trailer either. Also, I have never seen a lift system that was binding because of a warped or bent frame, not to say that this does'nt happen. Lack of maintenance and lubrication are the main causes of binding.. Door binding can be caused by the door getting out of square and not letting it fit into the opening properly. I have had this binding problem on our 01 Niagara now and then and I corrected it by tapping the bottomm edge of the door with a rubber mallet. I have shown others at campgrounds how to do this too. Worn and loose hinges are also another cause.....
Quote from: austinado16To me it just made sense to do the side-to-side leveling first since the axle isn't dead center in the middle. So I do that with the BAL leveler, then do the front-to-rear, and then recheck my side-to-side. I don't see what's wrong with putting the stabilzers down prior to lifting the roof. As stated by so many here, they are just that, stabilizers, and they're not loading the frame such that any binding would occur. Plus, with all the slop in the lifting arms and the movement in the roof (as you can see by just pushing on the roof once it's up), it's not like we're talking about precision instruments here.
Just my rookie 2 cents worth.
austinado16
You're right. I think that some manufacturers recommend raising the roof prior to lowering stabilizers to avoid someone over-loading 1 stabilizer more than the others, thus creating a potential binding of the lifts while they are being raised.
Other manufacturers may allow for people to follow the directions on merely lowering the stabilizers, thus stabilizing the platform in a straight, level position. This may be particularly helpful if the wind is blowing.
I think that I may start lowering my stabilizers (after leveling) before I raise my roof, as it actually makes more sense then what my Coleman manual instructs.
-------------------------------------------------
Old goat
When you are towing, the roof is fastened down and completing a total box shaped structure. The box becomes part of the the reinforcement for the frame. As soon as you lift the roof, you lose that strength on the door side of the camper.
Just think of a single sheet of 4'x8' plywood. By itself, it is very flimsy and flexes quite easily. When you put 4 sides and a roof on that sheet of plywood, it becomes quite solid. That is what you have with a PU trailer with the roof fastened to the box.
We're not talking about frames that totally buckle here. We are talking about frames that can achieve an "Out of alignment" condition that may cause the door not to fit and/or the lifts to bind because they are no longer, all 4, going up in alignment. That situation could cause increased stress in lifting and/or (eventually) broken lifting cables and/or rollers.
wavery,not all campers have the crank kind on them.
Mine has a lever you push and the stablizer slides down.How would you do that,level the pup and slide them till they hit the ground?
This is how I've always done,the 4 or 5 times we've went camping in it.
I get side-side level first,then jack the tounge up till fronts a tad low.Then put rear stablizes down and jack it up a tad high and put the front down.Then I let jack it down till the front stablizers are snug but the axle and tounge jack are holding most of the weight.
Then I pop it up,not anymore.I do that first.After I unhook of course.
If thats the wrong way to do it,please let me know and share the correct way.
Great thread! :D Now I have a Rookie question:
Where on the trailer do you check with your level? I've been checking side-to-side by placing my level on the back bumper. I check front-to-back by placing my level on the tongue near the propane tanks.
If I double-check by placing the level on the floor in the middle of the PUP, it doesn't always seem to agree. This puzzles me. :confused:
My door has never fit perfectly. There has always been a small gap on one side at the top of the hard wall. The wingnut on the door doesn't make good contact on that side. My dealer said popups are just like that. After reading this thread, I'm getting concerned my frame may have been bent from the day I bought it! How does one go about correcting this?
Quote from: stewartlittlewavery,not all campers have the crank kind on them.
Mine has a lever you push and the stablizer slides down.How would you do that,level the pup and slide them till they hit the ground?
This is how I've always done,the 4 or 5 times we've went camping in it.
I get side-side level first,then jack the tounge up till fronts a tad low.Then put rear stablizes down and jack it up a tad high and put the front down.Then I let jack it down till the front stablizers are snug but the axle and tounge jack are holding most of the weight.
Then I pop it up,not anymore.I do that first.After I unhook of course.
If thats the wrong way to do it,please let me know and share the correct way.
It's best to totally level the PU (some prefer to leave it slightly off-level for drainage), then drop your stabilizers. No further adjustment should be made with the tongue jack, after the stabilizers are down.
I have the same type stabilizers that you do (I believe). They have holes in them, through which you put a tool in to put a firm lift on the stabilizer (just enough to overcome the surface softness).
Quote from: A2SuperCrewGreat thread! :D Now I have a Rookie question:
Where on the trailer do you check with your level? I've been checking side-to-side by placing my level on the back bumper. I check front-to-back by placing my level on the tongue near the propane tanks.
If I double-check by placing the level on the floor in the middle of the PUP, it doesn't always seem to agree. This puzzles me. :confused:
My door has never fit perfectly. There has always been a small gap on one side at the top of the hard wall. The wingnut on the door doesn't make good contact on that side. My dealer said popups are just like that. After reading this thread, I'm getting concerned my frame may have been bent from the day I bought it! How does one go about correcting this?
Your most accurate level reading can be made on the floor of the camper. Some people actually use the bottom of the fridge because they believe the fridge is the most critical part to be leveled. However, most modern fridges are less vulnerable to "Off-level" conditions. Using the floor of the camper should be quite adequate.
The floor is what the roof lifts are squared to, during construction.
Quote from: A2SuperCrewGreat thread! :D Now I have a Rookie question:
Where on the trailer do you check with your level? I've been checking side-to-side by placing my level on the back bumper. I check front-to-back by placing my level on the tongue near the propane tanks.
If I double-check by placing the level on the floor in the middle of the PUP, it doesn't always seem to agree. This puzzles me. :confused:
No pop-up is perfect. If you don't notice a problem (i.e. if you can't feel it being out-of-level when walking or when laying in bed), then it's level enough. People get concerned about the fridge being level, but on a typical pop-up, the fridge only needs the pop-up level to within
3-4 inches side-to-side, and
7-11 inches (depending on length of pop-up) front-to-back. I know if I were off by 3 inches when I leveled, PJay would make me level again (no comments please).
Anywhere on the frame, a good bullseye level will get you within 1/2-3/4 inch every time. You do not need to be that accurate.
I've actually outdone myself on leveling. Without trying, I have developed a skill for just looking and knowing how much I'll need to level side-to-side. I will check with a bullseye level after deciding, but I and the level have not disagreed in many years.
Austin
Quote from: campdaddyHere's something interesting I found in the manual. On page 19 the manual says to use the door side rear stabilizer to adjust the door fit by slightly raising or lowering the jack.
I do the same thing on my Jayco, but very carefully. If I just lower my stabs to the point of slightly firm pressure, after raising the roof, my door binds slightly. If I raise my door side rear stab one more click, it frees up the door and it works great.
You have to be a little more careful, I guess with the Atwoods, because there is no adjustment between the clicks. One click is probably close to 1/4" lift, if not more. I think the screw-type stabs are pretty much infinitely adjustable.
One explanation for out of square doors may not have anything to do with the frame. I replaced my canvas last spring. I put the new canvas back just like the old one, but I think it pulls towards the front just a little bit once the shepherd's poles are inserted on the bunk ends. The canvas isn't pulling laterally on the roof when raising and lowering, so that's not an issue, but when I put the pressure on the bunk ends, I believe the roof leans forward ever so slightly, wracking the door frame just a little. That's why I compensate with another crank down on the rear stab.
At any rate, it works just fine, and I'm sure with my one more crank routine that I'm not hurting anything at all. Now if I lifted it 2" or 3", that's another matter entirely.
Quote from: AustinBostonNo pop-up is perfect. If you don't notice a problem (i.e. if you can't feel it being out-of-level when walking or when laying in bed), then it's level enough. People get concerned about the fridge being level, but on a typical pop-up, the fridge only needs the pop-up level to within 3-4 inches side-to-side, and 7-11 inches (depending on length of pop-up) front-to-back. I know if I were off by 3 inches when I leveled, PJay would make me level again (no comments please).
Anywhere on the frame, a good bullseye level will get you within 1/2-3/4 inch every time. You do not need to be that accurate.
I've actually outdone myself on leveling. Without trying, I have developed a skill for just looking and knowing how much I'll need to level side-to-side. I will check with a bullseye level after deciding, but I and the level have not disagreed in many years.
Austin
The point of being as level as possible is to have your lifts push straight up, directly in-line with gravity. Any off-level and you start the roof leaning to one side or the other (toward gravity). The further off center the lifts are the more stress on the entire lifting system. Having said that, I agree that an inch or two probably won't make a huge difference. The differences are in degrees. At a 25 degree angle, you may not be able to move the roof at all.
What we are talking about here is "Ideals". Like you say, nothing is perfect but the goal is to do the best you can to avoid lifting mechanism issues and maximizing the life of your camper.
Here WAS what I did for my Viking popup. Setting the door in place prior to installing the shepherds poles helps stop the roof from being pushed too far in one direction and screwing up door alignment.
1. Back into lot and check for side to side level, adjust as required with blocks or BAL leveler and add wheel chocks
2. Unplug trailer/vehicle wiring.
3. Crank tongue jack to remove camper from hitch
4. Remove safety chains
5. Pull tow vehicle away
6. Adjust front/back level with tongue jack
7. Remove required items from front storage trunk (i.e. Screenroom, portapotty, roof crank, stabilizer crank.. etc)
8. Unsnap roof clips
9. Remove items from rear bumper storage compartment
10. Unzip awning bag if you are vertically challenged;)
11. Crank roof up until guide wire is taut
12. Install roof safety supports on opposite corners (don't forget these when lowering)
13. Lower stabilizers and snug (fine tune leveling by lowering the lowest side first and more snug)
14. Insert bunkend supports on tongue end
15. Pull strap on bunkend out until the bunkend stops
16. Insert two additional supports under bunkend
17. Pull tent material over end and attach bungie cords
18. Close zippers on this end and close tenting over support arms/zippers
19. Insert bunkend supports on opposite end
20. Pull strap on bunkend out until bunkend stops (adjust for teflon slide under bunkend)
21. Pull tent material over end and attach bungie cords
22. Close zippers on this end and close tenting over support arms/zippers
23. Enter camper and close bottom of door
24. Lower upper half of door from ceiling
25. Insert top door guides into the bottom door and snap clip (careful of fabric pinching on sides)
26. Press top of door in and close the clips (careful of fabric)
27. Twist clip to unhook upper door from doorframe
28. Attach tenting to door frame velcro from inside
29. Removes shepherd poles from under mattresses and place to hold tenting up on bunkends.
30. Organize interior (i.e. flip galley up insure drain is open and valves are closed, close water heater drain valves under u-shaped dinnette seat, place cushions, remove stove etc)
31. Exit camper
32. Attach exterior tenting to door frame, careful of alignment
33. Shut 12V supply off to refrigerator
34. Open gas valves
35. Connect 110V and water if hookups
36. Set refrigerator to either 110V or gas and use piezo if gas to light
37. Hookup any graywater container used
38. Open outside shower compartment and bleed air from both hot and cold sides
39. Light water heater after air is purged from system
40. Undo awning from bag and place awning arms, both support and tension, including the center tension bar
41. Install screen room if desired
42. Relax and have a glass of wine or a beer
Wavery, Your sheet of plywood theory is good but it does not apply here. If the 2x4 frame around the edges is only fastened at the sheet's four corners like a popup roof is latched down. it will still twist and flex. If turned upside down with the frame on the top, the plywood will sag in the middle. If the frame is fastened all around the sheets edges it will become more rigid. Same thing with a popup roof. If you have towed your popup a long distance as I have, you will notice shiney spots and black marks where the roof gasket sits on the top edge of the box. These are caused by movement of the box under the gasket when the frame constantly flexes and twists while being towed especially on the door side. Popups that have slide outs will flex and twist even more than one that does not.
Several years ago I saw a popup that had accidently hit a big pot hole. The frame and 12ft. box had flexed enough on the door side to pull the rear top latch away from the ABS roof, screws and all. The roof had not made the box or frame any stiffer. The frame did not bend and the door still fit perfectly. The TV's right front tire was ruined also. I saw this with my own eyes so I know for sure that it happened. Popup frames, like vehicle frames are made to flex and twist with loads and motion. Otherwise they will self destruct over time....
Quote from: chasd6042. Relax and have a glass of wine or a beer
If you don't get here, may as well stay home.
Austin
Quote from: chasd60Here WAS what I did for my Viking popup. Setting the door in place prior to installing the shepherds poles helps stop the roof from being pushed too far in one direction and screwing up door alignment.
I love checklists and this is a good one :sombraro: ...........some people think that they complicate things too much :eyecrazy: . In reality, they simplify things because when you forget to do something on the list is when life can get very complicated :yikes: .
Checklists? Never ever had one. They don't ever help me remember everything when setting up, especially after having a couple of cold boys........
Quote from: Old GoatChecklists? Never ever had one. They don't ever help me remember everything when setting up, especially after having a couple of cold boys........
That's because you have to
remember to "Check" it :sombraro: .
When we were making long ocean passages on our sailboat, we had 3 different checklists. Let me tell you, if we didn't physically
check-off every single item and switch lists to double check, all hell would break lose once we got out to sea. We refined our lists over a period of several years. They were terrifically complicated.
That's a pretty extreme example but I have forgotten stuff on the PU nearly every trip. We are thinking about making a list for "Loading & leaving" and another list for popping up (the above one is good) and another list for popping-down and packing-up.
Heck.....as I get older, I may have to have a list for getting up in the morning and another one for going to bed at night :sombraro: .............ye gads......don't remind me............I'm getting to be an "Old Goat"... :J
Quote from: A2SuperCrewGreat thread! :D Now I have a Rookie question:
Where on the trailer do you check with your level? I've been checking side-to-side by placing my level on the back bumper. I check front-to-back by placing my level on the tongue near the propane tanks.
If I double-check by placing the level on the floor in the middle of the PUP, it doesn't always seem to agree. This puzzles me. :confused:
My door has never fit perfectly. There has always been a small gap on one side at the top of the hard wall. The wingnut on the door doesn't make good contact on that side. My dealer said popups are just like that. After reading this thread, I'm getting concerned my frame may have been bent from the day I bought it! How does one go about correcting this?
I have a set of these on ours.
LevelI mounted them on the drivers side front of the camper. The good thing about them is that you can see immediately how many blocks of wood are required to level it side to side. If it's two lines off..it takes two boards to level...and then as for for and aft, its right there where the tongue jack is located. so i just crank it up or down as needed. THEN i use the stabilizers to....well...stabilize...but not to level. You can find these at Wallyworld too. You can see them in this photo
Photo If you look closely just above the right forward marker light and just in front of the right forward latch.
I set them up the first time -before glueing them on- by utilzing a carpenters level just inside the doorway.
Quote from: waveryThat's because you have to remember to "Check" it :sombraro: .
When we were making long ocean passages on our sailboat, we had 3 different checklists. Let me tell you, if we didn't physically check-off every single item and switch lists to double check, all hell would break lose once we got out to sea. We refined our lists over a period of several years. They were terrifically complicated.
That's a pretty extreme example but I have forgotten stuff on the PU nearly every trip. We are thinking about making a list for "Loading & leaving" and another list for popping up (the above one is good) and another list for popping-down and packing-up.
Heck.....as I get older, I may have to have a list for getting up in the morning and another one for going to bed at night :sombraro: .............ye gads......don't remind me............I'm getting to be an "Old Goat"... :J
wavery, I too like checklists. I have checklists for most things that we need to take with us camping and for checking out the TV and PUP before leaving home, like tire pressures and oil levels, but not one for setup or teardown. The one above by chad60 looks pretty good to me. The one time we left for only (luckily) a 3 day outing and we didn't use our checklists is the time I forgot to take my BP medication with us.
I spent 8 years in the U.S. Air Force (SAC) and we lived or died by checklists. If it wasn't listed on a checklist somewhere it didn't happen . I guess that's where I developed my checklist mania. Heck, we have so many checklists that I may need a checklist to check all my checklists. :eyecrazy:
Half the fun of camping is learning how to get along without all the things you forgot to bring. You would be surprised how simple camping can be.
Never worry about becomming an "Old Goat".I am really enjoying the trip. It's much,much better than the alternative of residing six feet under or being converted into a small pile of ashes..........
My Owners manual (Fleetwood Niagara) tells me to level side to side first (in the event there is a 'low' side), then front to rear, using the tongue jack to level. Then it tells me to raise the roof. After the roof is raised then I am to use the crank-down stabilizers..."Do not lower the Stabilizer jacks prior to raising the trailer top as this can place an undue stress on the trailer frame and lift system resulting in premature wear. Do not use the stabilizer jacks to take the weight of the trailer off the tires. The jacks are inted ONLY TO 'STABILIZE'."
Quote from: campdaddyI have a set of these on ours. Level
..................
Thanks, CampDaddy! Those levels do seem like a nice way to simplify leveling, or at least make it more consistent. :D