Bad storm came through with very bad lightning.Not really comfortable staying in bunkends with those kinds of conditions but it was pouring down rain and the kids were out cold.Do I wake everyone up and go to the van?Do I ride it out?We rode it out in the pup but had a terrible nights sleep.What have you done?I do night like lightning.
I grew up in the southeast and thunder and lighting to me is met with about as much concern as the sun rising in the morning. It ain't the lightning I worry about, if its going to strike, the PU isn't much different from the car. Both sit on rubber tires / wheels. I worry about trees or limbs coming down and smashing into whatever I'm sleeping in. I have spent most of my 50 years in tents in thunderstorm country and have never had a problem. Just this last year have I moved to a PU. If anything, I feel less vulnerable in the PU than in the tent. As for the car, I don't see it as much of an advantage over the PU. I have seen many cars crushed from falling limbs and trees. And yes, cars do occasionally get hit by lightning, but not very often.
Basically, do what you feel SAFEST with in protecting your family. That is what is most important, regardless of other's opinions.
Quote from: JimSI grew up in the southeast and thunder and lighting to me is met with about as much concern as the sun rising in the morning. It ain't the lightning I worry about, if its going to strike, the PU isn't much different from the car. Both sit on rubber tires / wheels.
I hear this and hear this, but it is totally irrelevant. Repeat after me:
The only way rubber tires will make any difference to lightning (car or pop-up) is if the rubber is at least a mile thick.[/B]The lightning has just travelled between 20,000 and 60,000 feet; the few inches of air between your camper and the ground are irrelevant, whether or not there are rubber tires there. Oh, and the pop-up's stabilizers are metal to ground, making it (only slightly) different from a car.
Austin
Quote from: AustinBostonI hear this and hear this, but it is totally irrelevant. Repeat after me:
The only way rubber tires will make any difference to lightning (car or pop-up) is if the rubber is at least a mile thick.[/B]
The lightning has just travelled between 20,000 and 60,000 feet; the few inches of air between your camper and the ground are irrelevant, whether or not there are rubber tires there. Oh, and the pop-up's stabilizers are metal to ground, making it (only slightly) different from a car.
Austin
Read the entire post. Lightning arresters, lightning rods, copperwire,
insulators, what do they do?
I've often pondered (since owning popups) how the Faraday Cage "theory", as applied to cars and buses, would do with a popup ...?
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/vehicle_strike.html
Fly
Quote from: flyfishermanI've often pondered (since owning popups) how the Faraday Cage "theory", as applied to cars and buses, would do with a popup ...?
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/vehicle_strike.html
Fly
Good link, thanks!
Interesting question. I would think that the metal lifting system and the stabilizer jacks would act as a grounding circuit and bleed off the strike, not unlike lightning rods and the ground wire do for houses. Now, I'm going to be up all night thinking about this!
I just don't think a car is any safer than a PU in this matter.
A PU is a tent on wheels. We didn't stay in a tent when there is an electrical storm and we don't stay in the PU. Going into a building with plumbing and wiring is the safest thing to do. A car is our second choice. Most people don't get a second chance when they get hit by lightning.:)
Quote from: JimSGood link, thanks!
Interesting question. I would think that the metal lifting system and the stabilizer jacks would act as a grounding circuit and bleed off the strike, not unlike lightning rods and the ground wire do for houses. Now, I'm going to be up all night thinking about this!
I just don't think a car is any safer than a PU in this matter.
The car is a much safer "Faraday Cage" than a PU. Many people have experienced lightening strikes in cars and have not been injured. I'm sure that there may be cases where people may have been injured or killed too. It's just that we see the videos of survivors.
I have never heard of a PU being hit by lightening and I would think that it would be much more rare than lightening strikes to humans or cars (which is extremely rare).
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it but I think that a lightening strike on a PU would only be slightly protected by the "Faraday Cage" theory in a minimal strike. There just isn't enough metal to offer a lot of "cage" protection. However, some of the current could be transfered from the lifts to the ground. I certainly wouldn't like to be inside if that were to happen. Again, the chances are slim to none.
Quote from: waveryThe car is a much safer "Faraday Cage" than a PU. Many people have experienced lightening strikes in cars and have not been injured. I'm sure that there may be cases where people may have been injured or killed too. It's just that we see the videos of survivors.
I have never heard of a PU being hit by lightening and I would think that it would be much more rare than lightening strikes to humans or cars (which is extremely rare).
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it but I think that a lightening strike on a PU would only be slightly protected by the "Faraday Cage" theory in a minimal strike. There just isn't enough metal to offer a lot of "cage" protection. However, some of the current could be transfered from the lifts to the ground. I certainly wouldn't like to be inside if that were to happen. Again, the chances are slim to none.
I agree that the chances are very slim. The thing is, all you need is one path from the strike to the ground. This is how lightning rods work. They conduct the strike to a thumb size wire then to the ground. The trick is not beinig personally involved in the circuit. Even in a car, if you are in contact with the steering wheel, gear shift, or other component, you can be part of the circuit. I learned this the hard way about 7 years ago while standing under the eave of a building during a thunder bumper. OUCH!
Hmmmm, lightning "rods" for PU's.......
Quote from: JimSI agree that the chances are very slim. The thing is, all you need is one path from the strike to the ground. This is how lightning rods work. They conduct the strike to a thumb size wire then to the ground. The trick is not beinig personally involved in the circuit. Even in a car, if you are in contact with the steering wheel, gear shift, or other component, you can be part of the circuit. I learned this the hard way about 7 years ago while standing under the eave of a building during a thunder bumper. OUCH!
Hmmmm, lightning "rods" for PU's.......
Just don't think for one minute that your lifts would be effective "Lightening rods". They should be partially effective in accepting part of the load but most of the load may simply go right past them or melt them.
A lightening rod is buried between 3' and 6' in the ground. That makes an effective path to ground. However, when there is lightening, there may well be a lot of rain and a puddle of water around a stabilizer could make a lot of difference. Also, wet canvas could also make an effective path of discharge.
There are a lot of variables. The biggest variable is the likelihood of the event occurring in the fist place :sombraro: .
I've been a tent camper all my life, and LOVE the sound of rain on canvas while I stay snug and cozy inside my canvas shelter..... which is why I can convert to camping in a PUP, but you will NEVER see me buying a hardside camper.
when it's storming, I will listen to the weather radio, and I count thunder to lightening to get an idea of distance. I will leave if it seems to be too close for too long. Most storms travel thru pretty quickly) But lightening is much more likely to hit the taller trees around me, than it is to hit me, my tent, camper or car.
It's not so much electrical storms and lightening that scare me - but wind, trees and limbs. However, I do take precautions - especially since a young scout was killed in a wisconsin boy scout camp (Napawon) only one week after our troop stayed in the same campsite. The campsite was in a stand of tall, tall pines - typical of Wisconsin campgrounds, and was extremely well groomed, very safe, deadwood had been cleared - it was a perfectly normal, live GREEN treetop that fell on the boys' tent and killed him while he slept - and it was WIND - not even rain or lightening, that caused the tree top to break off and fall. The boys tent was not even under the trees, but was in a relatively clear space in the center of the campsite. they had, in short, done everything possible to make the campsite safe, and still fate caused a death. The wind had just risen, it wasn't raining or lightening, the leaders were up and deciding whether they should wake the boys and go to the mess hall, when the tree fell in the middle of the night.
As a camp counselor myself in High School & College, I had the experience of having to evacuate camp with dozens of little girls in my unit many times. Once, the storm came up so fast, we did not get much warning, and were still collecting girls from their platform tents (large double canvas tents erected on 10' X 14' wooden 'deck' frames), when the storm hit in full force and literally PICKED UP one of these deck tents and moved it about 10 feet, with the girls still in it! the poles fell, the beds slid out and the girls were scared and wet, but they were not hurt other than scrapes & bruises. (The name of the unit site was, appropriately 'Windy Knoll'; the next year those two tents, exposed on the 'knoll' in the open, were moved to a lower and less exposed spot in wooded part of the unit.)
I once watched a 30' tall, perfectly healthy, triple trunk Box Elder tree simply fall over, on a clear calm day - 3 feet away from my mother as she planted flowers in our yard. It was very surreal; seemed to happen in slow motion - and it landed on our neighbor's deck. Good thing the kids weren't out there at the time! Box Elders are known for being fast-growing and shallow-rooted, they break and fall easily. we had over a hundred of them on the lot we bought, and cleared most of them out because they were dangerous. in the subdivision where my parents lived, there were thousands of them - and it was very common to have them fall on houses, cars and decks all year round.
In a tent, you have some choice on where to place your tent in your campsite, and can sometimes avoid trouble spots. Because campers are usually restricted to paved or gravel 'pads' , you don't always get a choice where to place your camper. and most people like shade, so it's often under a tree!
Some parks are really good about clearing out easily downed 'trash' and softwood trees, and cleaning deadwood out of the campsites for safety. ( and to discourage campers from pulling down deadwood for firewood and hurting themselvs and the trees!) Others leave everything just as it is, meaning it can fall on anything, anytime.
So I would be more concerned about falling limbs than ligtning!
laura
Bel Air, Maryland: Am I safe inside a pop-up camper? I have read how it was safe to be inside a car during a storm, but I have not seen any good information about the safety of campers.
John Jensenius: Pop-up campers should not be considered safe during a storm. They are just too open and don't provide a safe shell around you. You would be much safer to get into a hard-topped metal vehicle.
This guy is a meteorologist and the link is below. Scroll to the bottom.
http://transcripts.usatoday.com/Chats/transcript.aspx?c=752
Guess it answers the question.
The few times we
I understand about lightening safety. As a young girl, it terrified me! I have since had at least two close calls and one indirect strike while in a lake that was struck.
We have weathered (no pun intended) many a storm while in tents and in the pop-up. My biggest concern has always been the trees, as I realize it is much bigger and heavier than either my tent or pop-up.
While I can see waking kids up to sit on the floor in the middle of the pop-up, I fail to see how making a run for the car is safer! No one has brought up the fact that during an active lightning storm you are NOT safe while exposed to direct strikes. While waking kids up, unlocking the car, holding open the door, tossing in frightened and sleepy children, who are now wet and scared (btw, doesn't water conduct electricity? We are running through what?) seems to be more hazardous. IMHO
I think there is a bit of a catch 22 when caught storm camping unawares.
Quote from: PJayI understand about lightening safety. As a young girl, it terrified me! I have since had at least two close calls and one indirect strike while in a lake that was struck.
We have weathered (no pun intended) many a storm while in tents and in the pop-up. My biggest concern has always been the trees, as I realize it is much bigger and heavier than either my tent or pop-up.
While I can see waking kids up to sit on the floor in the middle of the pop-up, I fail to see how making a run for the car is safer! No one has brought up the fact that during an active lightning storm you are NOT safe while exposed to direct strikes. While waking kids up, unlocking the car, holding open the door, tossing in frightened and sleepy children, who are now wet and scared (btw, doesn't water conduct electricity? We are running through what?) seems to be more hazardous. IMHO
I think there is a bit of a catch 22 when caught storm camping unawares.
I think that the 2 minutes that it takes you to get to a safer place, may be worth the time invested (unless it is only a 4 minute event). The risk changes very little whether you are inside the PU or walking in the rain. If someone is concerned about getting struck by lightening (and I'm not) they would be much safer (in their mind, at least) in a steel roofed vehicle than in the PU or in the rain.
I think that the concern about falling trees is much more realistic than the concern about lightening.
Quote from: JimSI agree that the chances are very slim. The thing is, all you need is one path from the strike to the ground. This is how lightning rods work.
And lightning rods also have AT LEAST 20 feet (usually more) of that thumb-sized conductor buried. Even so, they still don't always work.
QuoteThey conduct the strike to a thumb size wire then to the ground. The trick is not beinig personally involved in the circuit. Even in a car, if you are in contact with the steering wheel, gear shift, or other component, you can be part of the circuit.
Not if it functions as a faraday cage. The largest Van DeGraaff generator (i.e. lightnigh machine) in the world is at the
Theater Of Electricity at the Boston Museum of Science. Take a look at the photos on their
Touching Lightning page. I have seen this show live several times. The guy literally puts his fingers on the rod that is being struck by the discharge. As long as he stays on the INSIDE of the cage, he is safe. A finger on the outside would be removed by the artifical lightning.
BTW, if you ever get a chance to see this show, it is worth the price of Museum Admission in itself. Just be prepared for some really LOUD bangs, and lots of them.
QuoteI learned this the hard way about 7 years ago while standing under the eave of a building during a thunder bumper. OUCH!
Hmmmm, lightning "rods" for PU's.......
Not a faraday cage. Does not apply to automobiles.
Austin
Edit: I just read the MOS TOE site I linked to above and have to admit I've had the Faraday misconception they talk about. I used to think of the Faraday Cage effect as an application of skin effect. Apparently not.
In any case, skin effect is the reason a lightning rod that is a 1" thin-walled tube is as effective as a solid 1" tube - very little of the electricity travels inside the conductor, almost all of it is on the surface.
Austin
Quote from: AustinBostonAnd lightning rods also have AT LEAST 20 feet (usually more) of that thumb-sized conductor buried. Even so, they still don't always work.Quote from: AustinBostonThe University of New Mexico has done some interesting research on the effectiveness of lightning rods.
Quote from: AustinBostonNot if it functions as a faraday cage. The largest Van DeGraaff generator (i.e. lightnigh machine) in the world is at the Theater Of Electricity at the Boston Museum of Science. Take a look at the photos on their Touching Lightning page. I have seen this show live several times. The guy literally puts his fingers on the rod that is being struck by the discharge. As long as he stays on the INSIDE of the cage, he is safe. A finger on the outside would be removed by the artifical lightning.Quote from: AustinBostonhttp://transcripts.usatoday.com/Cha...ript.aspx?c=752
Read the above link.
He is still not part of the circuit, therefore safe. If he grounds himself, different story. Inside, outside, it doesn't matter. If you are part of the grounding path, you are cooked. Not too long ago, in L.A., a reporter was inside of her news van and was raising the comm link. The pole hit some power lines and proceded to burn her arms off, inside the van.
Quote from: AustinBostonNot a faraday cage. Does not apply to automobiles.Quote from: AustinBostonNever said it was nor said it did. My point was not being a ground path. You can grab a hot wire as long as you are not grounded. Birds land on high tension wires all the time.
Quote from: JimSNever said it was nor said it did. My point was not being a ground path. You can grab a hot wire as long as you are not grounded. Birds land on high tension wires all the time.
I have never seen anyone so capable of taking their own statements out of context.
Your original statement was:
QuoteEven in a car, if you are in contact with the steering wheel, gear shift, or other component, you can be part of the circuit. I learned this the hard way about 7 years ago while standing under the eave of a building during a thunder bumper. OUCH!
Hmmmm, lightning "rods" for PU's.......
My links proved the bold part is utterly false (my original statment was beacue of the Farady Cage effect, but in fact it is skin effect), then I say why your experience does not apply to the inside of a car. I'm not claiming that you said it was a Faraday Cage. I proved my point that you ARE protected in a car, even if touching the "steering wheel, gear shift, or other component," and that your experience does not apply.
Quotehttp://transcripts.usatoday.com/Cha...ript.aspx?c=752
"The page cannot be found"
QuoteRead the above link.
He is still not part of the circuit, therefore safe.
The only thing that keeps him from being a part of the circuit is the skin effect.
QuoteIf he grounds himself, different story. Inside, outside, it doesn't matter. If you are part of the grounding path, you are cooked.
You really don't know what you are talking about, do you?
How could he NOT be grounded? The spark the guy is dealing with just jumped 16 feet. The 1/2 inch through the soles of his feet to the grounded steel floor is not going to stop that spark. But skin effect will redirect it.
QuoteNot too long ago, in L.A., a reporter was inside of her news van and was raising the comm link. The pole hit some power lines and proceded to burn her arms off, inside the van.
You clearly did not read the links I provided.
Let me quote:
[INDENT]
In fact, not only are you safe inside the car, even the inside of the metal car BODY is safe, a fact we demonstrate by touching the inside of the cage bars while it is being struck. The outside is not safe, however, so if your hand were to go through the bars you would get struck (something that has happened to several of us at one time or another--it hurts a lot, like hitting your funny bone but about ten times worse--though the current is so low that there is no permanent damage. The hardest thing for the demonstrator in such cases is to remember not to say something bad since the microphone is still on![/INDENT]
Lightning is extremely high frequency energy, and therefore follows the skin effect. High tension wires are the opposite extreme, being close to the extremely low frequency range. If you don't think those newsvans are carefully designed to deal with lightning, you are sadly mistaken. OTOH, they train the operator not to raise the boom into high tension wires.
Austin
Quote from: AustinBostonI have never seen anyone so capable of taking their own statements out of context.
Your original statement was:
My links proved the bold part is utterly false (my original statment was beacue of the Farady Cage effect, but in fact it is skin effect), then I say why your experience does not apply to the inside of a car. I'm not claiming that you said it was a Faraday Cage. I proved my point that you ARE protected in a car, even if touching the "steering wheel, gear shift, or other component," and that your experience does not apply.
"The page cannot be found"
The only thing that keeps him from being a part of the circuit is the skin effect.
You really don't know what you are talking about, do you? How could he NOT be grounded? The spark the guy is dealing with just jumped 16 feet. The 1/2 inch through the soles of his feet to the grounded steel floor is not going to stop that spark. But skin effect will redirect it.
You clearly did not read the links I provided.
Let me quote:
[INDENT]In fact, not only are you safe inside the car, even the inside of the metal car BODY is safe, a fact we demonstrate by touching the inside of the cage bars while it is being struck. The outside is not safe, however, so if your hand were to go through the bars you would get struck (something that has happened to several of us at one time or another--it hurts a lot, like hitting your funny bone but about ten times worse--though the current is so low that there is no permanent damage. The hardest thing for the demonstrator in such cases is to remember not to say something bad since the microphone is still on![/INDENT]
Lightning is extremely high frequency energy, and therefore follows the skin effect. High tension wires are the opposite extreme, being close to the extremely low frequency range. If you don't think those newsvans are carefully designed to deal with lightning, you are sadly mistaken. OTOH, they train the operator not to raise the boom into high tension wires.
Austin
Whatever, I'm not going to mince words with you.
Another good link with lots of info:
http://www.lightningtalks.com/LightningSafety.htm