Title: polar package for pups?
Post by: leefamfun on Sep 21, 2007, 09:43 AM
Post by: leefamfun on Sep 21, 2007, 09:43 AM
I plan on doing some cold weather camping.(high 20s,low 30s at night,mid 30s,mid 40s during the day)I was wondering if there is a polar package for pups like the packages available for tts.
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Post by: austinado16 on Sep 21, 2007, 10:28 AM
Post by: austinado16 on Sep 21, 2007, 10:28 AM
Here's what's been recommend by those that have gone before us:
1) Cover the tops of the bunk canvas with the "Sportsmans Blankets" sold at REI, Cabala's, Campmor ($13-$15ea) and put the silver side down. You can also find the same blanket called a "military casualty blanket" for about $16 for a 3 pack on ebay........that's the one that I used. Olive drab on one side, silver on the other. A company called Popup Gizmos sells them custom sized and sewn up for your specific camper for about $89/pair including the hold down clips. I used the large size of "binder clips" from "Staples" and they were $4/box of 12. I cut and sewed 2 together to make my front bunk and used a scrap left over to sew to the another one to make the rear bunk cover. Easy and cheap. You can read more about this mod and see photos in the Product Review Forum thread, "bunk end covers out of Casualty Blankets (http://www.arveeclub.com/showthread.php?t=64367&highlight=casualty+blankets) ."
You place the silver side down in the winter or at night to hold the heat in. Turn them silver side up during the heat of the day to reflect the heat and keep the bunks cool.
2) Buy a roll of Reflectix Insulation (Lowes, Home Deep Hole, etc.) and cut panels to fit into your camper windows. Store them under the bunk mattresses when not in use. Simply unzip the windows, slide the Reflectix in place and then zip back up. It has an R value of 9, so pretty decent for 1/4" of material. (I haven't done this yet, but it's the next mod.)
3) Get a propane heater so that you don't have to run the camper's forced air furnace which is typically noisey and burns quite a bit of propane along with running down your 12v battery with the blower fan. Many here use the "Mr. Heater" or "Mr. Buddy" that take the small canisters of propane......leave the roof vent and a window cracked open so the heater isn't using your oxygen supply, and isn't putting Carbon Monoxide into the camper. The other heater option, which is what I bought, is the Olympian Wave 6 catalytic heater. Same venting required, but it's catalytic so the CO emmissions are basically zero. They're on ebay all the time for cheap. Search "catalytic heater." I've installed a 10' flex hose with quick disconnects like my take-out stove, so the heater can be hooked up to the camper's main gas line when needed. Burns 1/4lb of propane per hour on high (5,900btu). More about this mod in the thread about Catalytic Heaters (http://www.arveeclub.com/showthread.php?t=64284&highlight=catalytic+heater) .
4) Foam insulation, like the strip you put in your window when you install a window mount air conditioner in your house. Put this around where the canvas bunk sides meet the plywood bunks to keep the draft out (I haven't done this one yet either).
5) Reflectix under the mattresses to reflect the cold back down and your body heat back up (also haven't done this one).
1) Cover the tops of the bunk canvas with the "Sportsmans Blankets" sold at REI, Cabala's, Campmor ($13-$15ea) and put the silver side down. You can also find the same blanket called a "military casualty blanket" for about $16 for a 3 pack on ebay........that's the one that I used. Olive drab on one side, silver on the other. A company called Popup Gizmos sells them custom sized and sewn up for your specific camper for about $89/pair including the hold down clips. I used the large size of "binder clips" from "Staples" and they were $4/box of 12. I cut and sewed 2 together to make my front bunk and used a scrap left over to sew to the another one to make the rear bunk cover. Easy and cheap. You can read more about this mod and see photos in the Product Review Forum thread, "bunk end covers out of Casualty Blankets (http://www.arveeclub.com/showthread.php?t=64367&highlight=casualty+blankets) ."
You place the silver side down in the winter or at night to hold the heat in. Turn them silver side up during the heat of the day to reflect the heat and keep the bunks cool.
2) Buy a roll of Reflectix Insulation (Lowes, Home Deep Hole, etc.) and cut panels to fit into your camper windows. Store them under the bunk mattresses when not in use. Simply unzip the windows, slide the Reflectix in place and then zip back up. It has an R value of 9, so pretty decent for 1/4" of material. (I haven't done this yet, but it's the next mod.)
3) Get a propane heater so that you don't have to run the camper's forced air furnace which is typically noisey and burns quite a bit of propane along with running down your 12v battery with the blower fan. Many here use the "Mr. Heater" or "Mr. Buddy" that take the small canisters of propane......leave the roof vent and a window cracked open so the heater isn't using your oxygen supply, and isn't putting Carbon Monoxide into the camper. The other heater option, which is what I bought, is the Olympian Wave 6 catalytic heater. Same venting required, but it's catalytic so the CO emmissions are basically zero. They're on ebay all the time for cheap. Search "catalytic heater." I've installed a 10' flex hose with quick disconnects like my take-out stove, so the heater can be hooked up to the camper's main gas line when needed. Burns 1/4lb of propane per hour on high (5,900btu). More about this mod in the thread about Catalytic Heaters (http://www.arveeclub.com/showthread.php?t=64284&highlight=catalytic+heater) .
4) Foam insulation, like the strip you put in your window when you install a window mount air conditioner in your house. Put this around where the canvas bunk sides meet the plywood bunks to keep the draft out (I haven't done this one yet either).
5) Reflectix under the mattresses to reflect the cold back down and your body heat back up (also haven't done this one).
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Post by: AustinBoston on Sep 21, 2007, 11:26 AM
Post by: AustinBoston on Sep 21, 2007, 11:26 AM
Quote from: austinado16Many here use the "Mr. Heater" or "Mr. Buddy" that take the small canisters of propane......leave the roof vent and a window cracked open so the heater isn't using your oxygen supply, and isn't putting Carbon Monoxide into the camper. The other heater option, which is what I bought, is the Olympian Wave 6 catalytic heater. Same venting required, but it's catalytic so the CO emmissions are basically zero.
I think a word or two is in order about CO (carbon monoxide) emissions. First, carbon monoxide (highly poisonous gas) is easily confused with carbon dioxide (a.k.a. CO2, mildly toxic in large quantities). Everything that burns or breathes produces carbon dioxide. Everything below is about carbon monoxide (the really dangerous one)
No properly adjusted propane burning device will produce significant amounts of CO if it has an adequate oxygen supply.
Every propane burning device including catalytic devices will produce dangerous amounts of CO if it is starved for oxygen, unless it has an O2 sensor that will shut it off in low-oxygen situations.
My opinion is that if any propane heater (that does not vent to the outside) is used when sleeping, then you need a carbon monoxide detector. Otherwise, you are betting your life on a single point of failure.
---
I would also say that if you are camping with hookups (and can tolerate the noise), skip the whole portable heater thing and use the furnace. It will put out several times as much heat as any portable heater without having to open the window.
---
One other thing...most pop-up manufacturers caution that below about 20
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Post by: beacher on Sep 21, 2007, 12:59 PM
Post by: beacher on Sep 21, 2007, 12:59 PM
Quote from: austinado16.....
3) Get a propane heater so that you don't have to run the camper's forced air furnace which is typically noisey and burns quite a bit of propane along with running down your 12v battery with the blower fan. Many here use the "Mr. Heater" or "Mr. Buddy" that take the small canisters of propane..........
That might not work in Utah!:D
When Mr. Buddy heaters work, they work well. However, they will not function reliably about 5000 feet above sea level. They have a safety Shut Off feature built-in that senses the amount of oxygen in the vicinity. The problem with that little safety feature is that if you are at an elevation more than 5000 ft. above sea level Mr. Buddy seses the lack of oxygen, (he thinks that you are suffocating), and it shuts itself off.
The Coleman catalytic ProCat heater is an option. While it's output less than a Mr. Buddy, it will stay lit and usable.
I'll be camping next weekend in the local mountains with temps in the low 30's at night. I'm going out to my PopUp right now to make some window panels with some SpectraFoil!! :p
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Post by: JimS on Sep 21, 2007, 01:35 PM
Post by: JimS on Sep 21, 2007, 01:35 PM
Quote from: beacherThat might not work in Utah!:DMy Mr. Buddy has worked well at elevations of 7000 feet, though it will shut off if the PU is closed up or is stuck in a somewhat confined corner. I have had this happen at elevations of 4000 feet. I do find it more difficult to light at higher elevations. I have never had my CO monitor to sound, even when the Mr Buddy has shut itself off. Give it a little air and it will work fine.
When Mr. Buddy heaters work, they work well. However, they will not function reliably about 5000 feet above sea level. They have a safety Shut Off feature built-in that senses the amount of oxygen in the vicinity. The problem with that little safety feature is that if you are at an elevation more than 5000 ft. above sea level Mr. Buddy seses the lack of oxygen, (he thinks that you are suffocating), and it shuts itself off.
The Coleman catalytic ProCat heater is an option. While it's output less than a Mr. Buddy, it will stay lit and usable.
I'll be camping next weekend in the local mountains with temps in the low 30's at night. I'm going out to my PopUp right now to make some window panels with some SpectraFoil!! :p
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Post by: austinado16 on Sep 21, 2007, 09:11 PM
Post by: austinado16 on Sep 21, 2007, 09:11 PM
Quote from: AustinBostonI think a word or two is in order about CO (carbon monoxide) emissions. First, carbon monoxide (highly poisonous gas) is easily confused with carbon dioxide (a.k.a. CO2, mildly toxic in large quantities). Everything that burns or breathes produces carbon dioxide. Everything below is about carbon monoxide (the really dangerous one)
No properly adjusted propane burning device will produce significant amounts of CO if it has an adequate oxygen supply.
Every propane burning device including catalytic devices will produce dangerous amounts of CO if it is starved for oxygen, unless it has an O2 sensor that will shut it off in low-oxygen situations.
My opinion is that if any propane heater (that does not vent to the outside) is used when sleeping, then you need a carbon monoxide detector. Otherwise, you are betting your life on a single point of failure.
---
I would also say that if you are camping with hookups (and can tolerate the noise), skip the whole portable heater thing and use the furnace. It will put out several times as much heat as any portable heater without having to open the window.
Austin
All of these heaters come with warnings about opening a vent and window (as I mentioned) so that they have their own air supply and so that they're not polluting your air with CO. They also all have low oxygen sensing shut down to keep them from using up all your 02 supply. The Olympian Catalytics are advertised to work up to about 12,000' so altitude isn't an issue. One Catalytic heater manufacturer's website said the Catatylics burn so clean that the amount of CO produced is not measurable.
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Post by: tlhdoc on Sep 22, 2007, 10:04 AM
Post by: tlhdoc on Sep 22, 2007, 10:04 AM
We try to camp at least once a month in the winter and have ended up camping in the single digits F over night. Here is what I do to help insulate the camper.
1. I have Pop Up Gizmos installed on the bunkends. I don't really think it matters which way you put them on in the winter.
2. If we are not using the rear bunk I hang a "emergency blanket" (the same material as the PUGs) across the rear bunk. we call that bunk the "meat locker".
3. I have the accordion folding sun shades that have "bubble wrap" on the inside that I insert in the windows of the bunkends. I trimmed the sunshades to fit between the screen and the tenting. If I were doing it again I would just slide them in between the frame of the bunkends and the tenting. You have a larger area insulated this way and it works just as well.
4. I put foam air conditioner strips in the crack between the bunkend bed frames and the bunkend tenting. This stops a lot of cold air from entering the PU. Note my bunkend tenting is not permanently attached to the bed frame. If it were you would not need to put the strips along the permanently attached side.
5. At night when the curtains are closed I hang additional survival blankets along the tenting in the box of the camper. They help to contain the heat in the PU.
6. If I have electric hookups I run my AC heat. I also use a cube heater. If we need to I run the furnace. The AC unit blows the heat (from itself and all of the hot air that rises) into the bunkend and circulates the air. This way you do not have the heat at the ceiling and cold by the floor. If I don't have electric I use fans to do the same thing.
A few additional notes. I use my cassette toilet and have not had any problems with it freezing, I keep heat on at all times when it is below freezing. I have the water system winterized, but I do use the sink drain. I pour more water down the drain before popping down. If you are camping at a full hookup site and you want to be able to dump grey/black water down the sewer, and it is going to snow. Mark your sewer connection so that you can find it under the snow. Shoveling your campsite out looking for it is not fun. Don't ask...:D
You can see pictures of some of my winter camping/snow camping at my webshots site.
1. I have Pop Up Gizmos installed on the bunkends. I don't really think it matters which way you put them on in the winter.
2. If we are not using the rear bunk I hang a "emergency blanket" (the same material as the PUGs) across the rear bunk. we call that bunk the "meat locker".
3. I have the accordion folding sun shades that have "bubble wrap" on the inside that I insert in the windows of the bunkends. I trimmed the sunshades to fit between the screen and the tenting. If I were doing it again I would just slide them in between the frame of the bunkends and the tenting. You have a larger area insulated this way and it works just as well.
4. I put foam air conditioner strips in the crack between the bunkend bed frames and the bunkend tenting. This stops a lot of cold air from entering the PU. Note my bunkend tenting is not permanently attached to the bed frame. If it were you would not need to put the strips along the permanently attached side.
5. At night when the curtains are closed I hang additional survival blankets along the tenting in the box of the camper. They help to contain the heat in the PU.
6. If I have electric hookups I run my AC heat. I also use a cube heater. If we need to I run the furnace. The AC unit blows the heat (from itself and all of the hot air that rises) into the bunkend and circulates the air. This way you do not have the heat at the ceiling and cold by the floor. If I don't have electric I use fans to do the same thing.
A few additional notes. I use my cassette toilet and have not had any problems with it freezing, I keep heat on at all times when it is below freezing. I have the water system winterized, but I do use the sink drain. I pour more water down the drain before popping down. If you are camping at a full hookup site and you want to be able to dump grey/black water down the sewer, and it is going to snow. Mark your sewer connection so that you can find it under the snow. Shoveling your campsite out looking for it is not fun. Don't ask...:D
You can see pictures of some of my winter camping/snow camping at my webshots site.
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Post by: RLD on Sep 22, 2007, 10:22 AM
Post by: RLD on Sep 22, 2007, 10:22 AM
Wow...that is some serious PUP snow camping.
Any problems when folding vinyl windows or the canvas when it's that cold?
Any problems when folding vinyl windows or the canvas when it's that cold?
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Post by: tlhdoc on Sep 22, 2007, 01:06 PM
Post by: tlhdoc on Sep 22, 2007, 01:06 PM
Quote from: RLDWow...that is some serious PUP snow camping.I haven't had any problems setting up or popping down in the cold. When I popdown I keep the heat running as long as possible.:)
Any problems when folding vinyl windows or the canvas when it's that cold?
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Post by: austinado16 on Sep 22, 2007, 10:30 PM
Post by: austinado16 on Sep 22, 2007, 10:30 PM
Those winter camping photos are insane! That is sooooo wild! All I can say is, you guys are hard core!
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Post by: AustinBoston on Sep 24, 2007, 07:43 AM
Post by: AustinBoston on Sep 24, 2007, 07:43 AM
Quote from: austinado16All of these heaters come with warnings about opening a vent and window (as I mentioned) so that they have their own air supply and so that they're not polluting your air with CO. They also all have low oxygen sensing shut down to keep them from using up all your 02 supply. The Olympian Catalytics are advertised to work up to about 12,000' so altitude isn't an issue. One Catalytic heater manufacturer's website said the Catatylics burn so clean that the amount of CO produced is not measurable.
Ever have an oxygen sensor fail? Every car I've owned except one has had an O2 sensor that needed replacement.
Get a CO detector. You are betting your life on a single point of failure device that WILL FAIL eventually.
Austin
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Post by: JimQPublic on Sep 24, 2007, 11:22 AM
Post by: JimQPublic on Sep 24, 2007, 11:22 AM
The "O2 Sensor" on Mr. Buddy heaters is a simple thermocouple and safety valve arrangement just like on a water heater or propane fridge. When combustion is incomplete due to low 02, high altitude, plugged jet, etc. the thermocouple doesn't heat up enough to generate sufficient electricity to hold the electromagnetic safety valve open. For anybody who's had trouble with their fridge or water heater pilot going out- you know that thermocouples can be mighty troublesome. Hence some Mr. Buddys work fine at 7,000 feet, others have trouble at sea level. Or so I've heard.
Back to the original question-
We have a Chalet which is insulated and only about 1/2 the air volume of a typical popup. With two big deep cycle batteries we have gone 4 days and nights of subfreezing weather, then towed 150 miles and gone 3 days and nights of rainy/sleety weather. At the end our batteries were still going strong.
If it were me, and I had a conventional fabric popup, for dry camping I would suggest getting a 1000 watt or bigger "inverter" generator to recharge the batteries each day. Also make sure your converter has a multi-stage charge program such as the recent WFCO models. Go with at least 20 amps per battery- so if you have two batteries it would be good to upgrade the converter to a 40-50 amp model.
Even with one (good) battery I think running the generator for an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening would keep you in good shape.
For hookup camping a combination of furnace, two portable electric heaters, and electric mattress pads should have you toasty 24/7.
If the campground has 30 amp power, in most cases I've seen there are two circuts on each power pedastal. One 30 amp outlet and breaker and one 20 amp breaker feeding a conventional 20 amp duplex outlet. Plug the trailer cord into the 30 amp outlet and run a heavy 12AWG 50' or shorter extension cord from the 20 amp outlet direct to one of the electric heaters.
Or so I say.
Back to the original question-
We have a Chalet which is insulated and only about 1/2 the air volume of a typical popup. With two big deep cycle batteries we have gone 4 days and nights of subfreezing weather, then towed 150 miles and gone 3 days and nights of rainy/sleety weather. At the end our batteries were still going strong.
If it were me, and I had a conventional fabric popup, for dry camping I would suggest getting a 1000 watt or bigger "inverter" generator to recharge the batteries each day. Also make sure your converter has a multi-stage charge program such as the recent WFCO models. Go with at least 20 amps per battery- so if you have two batteries it would be good to upgrade the converter to a 40-50 amp model.
Even with one (good) battery I think running the generator for an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening would keep you in good shape.
For hookup camping a combination of furnace, two portable electric heaters, and electric mattress pads should have you toasty 24/7.
If the campground has 30 amp power, in most cases I've seen there are two circuts on each power pedastal. One 30 amp outlet and breaker and one 20 amp breaker feeding a conventional 20 amp duplex outlet. Plug the trailer cord into the 30 amp outlet and run a heavy 12AWG 50' or shorter extension cord from the 20 amp outlet direct to one of the electric heaters.
Or so I say.
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Post by: AustinBoston on Sep 24, 2007, 11:45 AM
Post by: AustinBoston on Sep 24, 2007, 11:45 AM
Quote from: JimQPublicThe "O2 Sensor" on Mr. Buddy heaters is a simple thermocouple and safety valve arrangement just like on a water heater or propane fridge. When combustion is incomplete due to low 02, high altitude, plugged jet, etc. the thermocouple doesn't heat up enough to generate sufficient electricity to hold the electromagnetic safety valve open. For anybody who's had trouble with their fridge or water heater pilot going out- you know that thermocouples can be mighty troublesome. Hence some Mr. Buddys work fine at 7,000 feet, others have trouble at sea level. Or so I've heard.
I really, really, really hope this is wrong, because you can definitely kill people with a flame that will keep a thermocouple on. I have had them stay on using a wooden match! Thermocouples are OK for "flame out" sensors, but not for oxygen levels.
QuoteFor hookup camping a combination of furnace, two portable electric heaters, and electric mattress pads should have you toasty 24/7.
This has been my experience as well.
Austin
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Post by: DoubleD on Sep 24, 2007, 12:49 PM
Post by: DoubleD on Sep 24, 2007, 12:49 PM
We have camped in the Colorado mountains in early spring and it got to 3 degrees above zero F. We used one battery, and had no problem running the factory installed furnace all night long. We closed and clamped the curtains on the unused bunk ends, as well as using our clothing bags to "seal" the curtains. The furnace kept the camper warmer than normal at its lowest setting, as I believe the thermostat's placement makes it more susceptable to reading the lower temps from outside. The PU temperature was around 60 degrees F in the morning, whereas in warmer temps it keeps the PU around 50 degrees.
I do not believe in buying more equipment to carry around in a PU that is already provided with an adequate furnace. Storage and weight are areas I pay special attention to, so why re-purchase a heating device, safe or not?
I do not believe in buying more equipment to carry around in a PU that is already provided with an adequate furnace. Storage and weight are areas I pay special attention to, so why re-purchase a heating device, safe or not?
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Post by: JimQPublic on Sep 24, 2007, 12:54 PM
Post by: JimQPublic on Sep 24, 2007, 12:54 PM
Quote from: AustinBostonI really, really, really hope this is wrong, because you can definitely kill people with a flame that will keep a thermocouple on. Thermocouples are OK for "flame out" sensors, but not for oxygen levels.
..
Austin
According to page 5 of the Mr. Heater Buddy manual the "Oxygen Depletion Sensor" is simply hole in the side of the venturi tube, past the pilot orifice.
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Post by: AustinBoston on Sep 24, 2007, 01:21 PM
Post by: AustinBoston on Sep 24, 2007, 01:21 PM
Quote from: JimQPublicAccording to page 5 of the Mr. Heater Buddy manual the "Oxygen Depletion Sensor" is simply hole in the side of the venturi tube, past the pilot orifice.
Page 2: "Early signs of carbon monoxide poisoning resemble the flu, with headache, dizziness and/or nausea. If you have these signs, heater may not be working properly. Get fresh air at once! Have heater serviced."
Page 2: "Combustion by-products produced when using this product contain carbon monoxide, a chemical known to
the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects
(or other reproductive harm)."
Page 3: "When used without adequate combustion and ventilation air, this heater may give off excessive CARBON MONOXIDE, an odorless, poisonous gas."
There are three other references in the manual to carbon monoxide (total of six).
The only reference to an oxygen depletion sensor is on page 5. There is a diagram pointing to a hole. It is labeled "Oxygen Depletion Sensor." Since the term is not used or explained in the text, it is impossible to tell whether the hole is the "oxygen depletion sensor," where the oxygen depletion sensor is located (inside the hole), or where the oxygen sensor would be located if the device was equipped with one. If the sensor really is just a hole in the venturi tube, that is a bad thing, because it can easily become clogged.
There is one reference to "oxygen" on page one of the manual. The words "depletion" "sensor" and "O2" do not appear in the text (only in the diagram label on page 5).
If this device really does have an oxygen depletion sensor (like it says on the outside of the box), it doesn't actually say anything about it in the manual. This is odd, because it puts information about the tipover switch (another safety device) in capital letters at the bottom of page 3. But please go to the top of the next column, where it says: "NEVER OPERATE THE HEATER WHILE SLEEPING!"
Austin
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Post by: dandreas on Sep 24, 2007, 01:31 PM
Post by: dandreas on Sep 24, 2007, 01:31 PM
I'm with you DoubleD... if you paid for it and it works, why use anything but the heater already provided?! Happy camping to all those brave enough to face the elements!
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Post by: fritz_monroe on Sep 24, 2007, 03:23 PM
Post by: fritz_monroe on Sep 24, 2007, 03:23 PM
I agree completely with Austin. The cost of a CO detector is a real cheap price to pay to ensure that the sensor in a $100 device will work properly. My life and my family's lives are worth far more than a $20 CO detector.
Title: Burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!
Post by: MoJoCamping on Sep 24, 2007, 07:24 PM
Post by: MoJoCamping on Sep 24, 2007, 07:24 PM
You guys are crazy camping in all that white stuff! Nice to know the little pu holds up well!
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Post by: tlhdoc on Sep 24, 2007, 07:27 PM
Post by: tlhdoc on Sep 24, 2007, 07:27 PM
Quote from: dandreasI'm with you DoubleD... if you paid for it and it works, why use anything but the heater already provided?! Happy camping to all those brave enough to face the elements!Here are a few reasons why I use electric heat in the winter, if I have electric hookups. Why pay for propane when I have already paid to use the electric at the campground. The furnace wakes me up turning off and on, the AC heat strip runs all the time and gives me a nice white noise to sleep by. The furnace provides heat/no heat. The electric is a steady heat. The furnace blows the hot air toward my shower, which is very nice when showering or using the toilet. The bad thing is that the heat rises to the roof of the PU and does not circulate very well. The AC unit (or fan if dry camping) blows the heat into the bunkends. I have a furnace and use it when needed, but I don't see a reason to use it when I have electric to plug my camper into.:)
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Post by: austinado16 on Sep 25, 2007, 11:26 AM
Post by: austinado16 on Sep 25, 2007, 11:26 AM
Austin you're confusing how an O2 sensor in an automobile works with what is provided in these heaters.
An O2 Sensor is a vehicle is heated both electrically, and by the exhaust gas temps. Using disimilar metals it is looking at the amount of oxygen present in the exhaust gasses. The amount of oxygen present creates a voltage between 0 and 1 volt, ever changing, and this electrical impulse is sent to the vehicle's onboard fuel injection computer. The computer then changes the duration of the ground signal to the fuel injectors to either have them spray for a longer, or shorter duration in milliseconds. Whole different situation then what's in a heater.
And again, the "warning" in your posts sort of side-steps the issue that all of these heaters must be used with windows and vents opened slightly. It would be like warning people about how their cars will kill them when the start the engine in their garage and have the garage door closed.
I'm not saying your advice isn't important, I'm just saying it's sort of a moot point.
An O2 Sensor is a vehicle is heated both electrically, and by the exhaust gas temps. Using disimilar metals it is looking at the amount of oxygen present in the exhaust gasses. The amount of oxygen present creates a voltage between 0 and 1 volt, ever changing, and this electrical impulse is sent to the vehicle's onboard fuel injection computer. The computer then changes the duration of the ground signal to the fuel injectors to either have them spray for a longer, or shorter duration in milliseconds. Whole different situation then what's in a heater.
And again, the "warning" in your posts sort of side-steps the issue that all of these heaters must be used with windows and vents opened slightly. It would be like warning people about how their cars will kill them when the start the engine in their garage and have the garage door closed.
I'm not saying your advice isn't important, I'm just saying it's sort of a moot point.
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Post by: AustinBoston on Sep 25, 2007, 12:15 PM
Post by: AustinBoston on Sep 25, 2007, 12:15 PM
Quote from: austinado16Austin you're confusing how an O2 sensor in an automobile works with what is provided in these heaters.
What is provided with these heaters? I'm starting to think "nothing but marketing hype."
QuoteAnd again, the "warning" in your posts sort of side-steps the issue that all of these heaters must be used with windows and vents opened slightly.
If you read WHAT THE MANUFACTURER (not me) says, the device (specifically the Buddy heater) ALWAYS produces CO in use. The production of CO becomes excessive if there is not an adequate air supply. It says nothing about an O2 sensor turning it off.
This is something I have been saying for years.
But the argument I've heard over and over here and elsewhere (I have even spouted it myself) is that the oxygen sensor in the Buddy Heater turns the device off if there is not enough oxygen for the device to run safely. Surprise, surprise, there is NOTHING in the device's own manual that even suggests that! Nothing.
QuoteIt would be like warning people about how their cars will kill them when the start the engine in their garage and have the garage door closed.
Not quite. First, a garage door is a lot bigger than a pop-up window. Second, people do not go to sleep in their garage with the engine running even with the door open unless they are trying to commit suicide.
Sorry, but anyone who uses one of these things without a CO detector is gambling with life and death.
BTW, although the risk of CO is significant, the risk of fire is far greater.
Austin
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Post by: flyfisherman on Sep 25, 2007, 01:16 PM
Post by: flyfisherman on Sep 25, 2007, 01:16 PM
Quote from: leefamfunI plan on doing some cold weather camping.(high 20s,low 30s at night,mid 30s,mid 40s during the day)I was wondering if there is a polar package for pups like the packages available for tts.
More and more I'm becoming a fair weather camper! However, do like to get out early in the spring and late in fall after those elusive western North Carolina mountain trout. Try to plan when it's going to be a little on the warmer side but do get caught out when night time temps drop to freezing and, in fact, as low as 25 degrees. On one Michigan fall steelhead fishing trip it dipped down to 22 with lots of sleet and snow!
Learned that by covering the bunk ends with Reflectix that it makes a significant difference in retaining heat for cold weather camping and cuts way down on the humidity accumulating on the interior bunk-end canvas roof. Here's a pix from last spring's early outing - just click on the photo which will become larger - (disregard the trout bum clutter) - but note how I have tied the bunk ends with those plastic tarps, which underneath is the Reflectix 5/8" insulation. Even without the Refectix, the plastic taps help retain heat and thwart off humidity accumulation ... but the reflectix is so much better!
Fly
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Post by: austinado16 on Sep 25, 2007, 01:17 PM
Post by: austinado16 on Sep 25, 2007, 01:17 PM
This is like kittens batting a ball of yarn back and forth.
Again.......they're to be used with windows and a vent cracked open.
I've put a call into the engineer for Olympian Wave Catalytic Safety Heaters, and I'll post the results of that conversion. I was first put through to the same guy I'd talked to before, who "they" claimed was their resident "expert" on the catalytic heaters. This is the same guy who told me......when I asked how much of the dangerous gas CO, they produce......that they produce about as much as an infant. If you'll remember that thread I was soon corrected in that people and animals exhale CO2, not CO. Again today when I asked about "the dangerous gas CO" I got his small infant answer. When I told him we don't exhale CO, he said, "Right, CO2."
That's when I asked to speak to someone in engineering.
I may have to just take mine over to an automotive shop with my spare propane tank, fire it up in the driveway and have them "snif" it with their 5 gas exhaust gas analyzer. Then I'll get readings on Hydrocarbons, CO, CO2, O2, and NOX. Based on what I've seen come out of catalytic convertors on cars, the HC's(parts per million) and the CO% are usually zero, or nearly zero.
Again.......they're to be used with windows and a vent cracked open.
I've put a call into the engineer for Olympian Wave Catalytic Safety Heaters, and I'll post the results of that conversion. I was first put through to the same guy I'd talked to before, who "they" claimed was their resident "expert" on the catalytic heaters. This is the same guy who told me......when I asked how much of the dangerous gas CO, they produce......that they produce about as much as an infant. If you'll remember that thread I was soon corrected in that people and animals exhale CO2, not CO. Again today when I asked about "the dangerous gas CO" I got his small infant answer. When I told him we don't exhale CO, he said, "Right, CO2."
That's when I asked to speak to someone in engineering.
I may have to just take mine over to an automotive shop with my spare propane tank, fire it up in the driveway and have them "snif" it with their 5 gas exhaust gas analyzer. Then I'll get readings on Hydrocarbons, CO, CO2, O2, and NOX. Based on what I've seen come out of catalytic convertors on cars, the HC's(parts per million) and the CO% are usually zero, or nearly zero.
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Post by: AustinBoston on Sep 25, 2007, 02:52 PM
Post by: AustinBoston on Sep 25, 2007, 02:52 PM
Quote from: austinado16This is like kittens batting a ball of yarn back and forth.
Only if you miss the fact that the last several posts of mine have been in the context of the Buddy heater by Mr. Heater, where someone could actually point me to real product literature.
The web site for Camco (http://www.camco.net/), the manufacturer of the Olympian heater, is useless for real information, only stating "None of the deadly exhaust gases associated with flame heaters are produced with catalytic units" in the FAQ.
They also have this little gem: "The heater operates below the temperature necessary to support flame-type combustion and no heat is lost through a vent or flu." Hello? Don't you need to open a vent or window? Isn't that a vent? Doesn't heat escape through it? Oh, we just ignore those facts.
QuoteBased on what I've seen come out of catalytic convertors on cars, the HC's(parts per million) and the CO% are usually zero, or nearly zero.
This could go a couple ways, but automotive catalytic converters operate at temps well in excess of the Olympian heaters (at least if the "The heater operates below the temperature necessary to support flame-type combustion" is true), and so I expect a different result.
Austin
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Post by: want2camp on Sep 25, 2007, 06:10 PM
Post by: want2camp on Sep 25, 2007, 06:10 PM
All I can say is...WOW!! I want to camp with you! We are planning to camp this winter-have a furnace / a/c installed and an electric heater...don't know how well either work, just bought the camper this summer. If nothing else, we'll pull 'er out in the driveway during a snowstorm this winter and see how it works!
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Post by: austinado16 on Sep 26, 2007, 10:22 AM
Post by: austinado16 on Sep 26, 2007, 10:22 AM
Okay, just talked to Rob in engineering at US Catalyics, a division of Camco Manufacturing. Nice guy and very helpful.
He's done "emmissions" testing on their Wave Catalytic Heaters with the following results:
Efficiency:
98.7-99%
Emmissions:
Carbon Monoxide=40-50ppm (parts per million) which = .00004-.00005%CO on the high setting and on low and medium settings, only about 1-10ppm.
Carbon Dioxide= .5-.6%
Dioxide=20% (he called this a measure of how much water/moisture is produced)
VOC's=45ppm (he discribed this as "other" gasses)
With regards to low oxygen shut-off, on their base models it is simply the ineffecient burn process, whether it's brought on by low oxygen levels due to using up the oxygen, or due to altitutude, will cause the catalytic pad to cool to a point that the thermocouple is no longer making sufficient millivolts to keep the gas valve held open......the valve closes and the heater is shut off. On their models that did actually have a "system" it was nothing more than a pilot light that remained lit (their base models extinguish the pilot light right after start up). The pilot was what was sensative to how much oxygen it received and if it went out due to low oxygen levels, then the thermocouple would close the gas valve and the heater would shut down.
It was Rob's feeling that the heaters become less effecient above 5,000' elevation, and therefore the emmissions levels would go up. However, if you look at how low the CO% is.....basically it's zero.....an increase in CO would still not produce much at all.
Considering they are being used with a vent and a window cracked open, the emmissions levels are nothing. The exhaust gas analyzers I've used in the automotive field would not even be capable of measuring CO that low.
He's done "emmissions" testing on their Wave Catalytic Heaters with the following results:
Efficiency:
98.7-99%
Emmissions:
Carbon Monoxide=40-50ppm (parts per million) which = .00004-.00005%CO on the high setting and on low and medium settings, only about 1-10ppm.
Carbon Dioxide= .5-.6%
Dioxide=20% (he called this a measure of how much water/moisture is produced)
VOC's=45ppm (he discribed this as "other" gasses)
With regards to low oxygen shut-off, on their base models it is simply the ineffecient burn process, whether it's brought on by low oxygen levels due to using up the oxygen, or due to altitutude, will cause the catalytic pad to cool to a point that the thermocouple is no longer making sufficient millivolts to keep the gas valve held open......the valve closes and the heater is shut off. On their models that did actually have a "system" it was nothing more than a pilot light that remained lit (their base models extinguish the pilot light right after start up). The pilot was what was sensative to how much oxygen it received and if it went out due to low oxygen levels, then the thermocouple would close the gas valve and the heater would shut down.
It was Rob's feeling that the heaters become less effecient above 5,000' elevation, and therefore the emmissions levels would go up. However, if you look at how low the CO% is.....basically it's zero.....an increase in CO would still not produce much at all.
Considering they are being used with a vent and a window cracked open, the emmissions levels are nothing. The exhaust gas analyzers I've used in the automotive field would not even be capable of measuring CO that low.