PopUp Times

Hi, first post and excited to join the crowd! I recently purchased an 07 Palomino Yearling with a 12 foot box, (no elect or surge brakes)  new from a dealer in Michigan. This is my first trailer, as I have been a tenter for 35 plus years. I presently own a 2000 Buick Century, with a rated tow capacity of 2000 lbs. I have added a  transmission cooler to it as well. The GVW dry weight of the trailer is 1790lbs, with a tongue weight of 180 lbs. I had a custom fabricated 2" square hitch welded to the frame of the Buick, with a 3500 lb capacity.  I towed this pop up home from Port Huron Michigan to Kitchener Ontario (180 miles) with no problems.  I realize that most of you use pickups, vans and SUV's to tow with. Myself, I tend to prefer a conventional car to the above, and have decided not to purchase a truck or van to tow with.  I do not plan to travel extensively at this time (no more than 5-10 hours from home) as I have teenagers who are rapidly loosing interest in family camping and no longer want to come with my wife and me. (Therefore, we are not really keen on being too far from home.....) Although I can obviously feel the weight of the trailer when towing it, it did not appear to be much of an issue at all to tow. The car appears to have a solid rear suspension, as it settled very little when the trailer was attached. The car has only 60,000 miles on it and is in like new condition, and rust free.
Here is my question: Aside from those of you who presently tow with a truck/van/SUV, who is pulling their pup with a car? Do you believe that this car CANNOT SAFELY pull this trailer?  Should I install electric brakes? Do you have any recommendations of what I can add to the car, hitch or trailer for added towing safety? Do I need to?
All things considered, I grew up in an era where MOST people towed not only pups but TT's with the family wagon or car. In that era, pups and TT's weighed  a lot more, although yes, cars were heavier as well. My brother towed a vintage '77 pup all over the eastern seaboard for 11 years with a 1990 Lumina car and had no problems. That trailer was a boat anchor! As for my new trailer, this is one of the lighter pups in a 12' box, which I feel is relative to the capacity of the car. Even though GM rates this car at 2000 lb towing capacity, I am certain that for liability reasons, they "under rate" what it can pull.  Also, by adding a transmission cooler, I would think that the towing capacity would also increase a bit.   As a newbee to the pup trailer pulling crowd, what are your suggestions and opinions?  Thanks!!  Alan

What were the tow ratings for your car?  While your trailer might not weigh as much as the rating, remember to include the weight of your passengers, gear, cooler/food.

I'd be rather hesitant - fearing the damage that can be done to the transmission.  As an alternative - I might suggest your passengers, gear, pets, etc., ride in a second vehicle so as not to burden your tow vehicle.

I don't know if you'd be using your trailer's on-board water tank, but, would definately recommend against towing with the tank full.

Forgot to ask about AC, propane tanks (you need to include this weight).  Your owners manual should have a listing of the amenities and their weights which you might find helpful.

I too remember the days when you'd see passenger cars towing travel trailers, etc., but, I also remember the amenities in the old trailers - stoves which weren't much more than a coleman stove, so yes, the weight was very different.  

Your dealer should have gone over the tow capacity of your tow vehicle with you, and discussed the need (or not) for brakes.

Hey, Alan, camping with a pup is sure fun, and I think everyone on here would agree.

I will wait and see what others say, but I think several are going to say your Buick is not enough for your pup. You mention GVW dry weight, but there is no such thing. GVWR and dry weight are two entirely different numbers, with the dry weight always being a few hundred pounds less. If your GVWR was 1,790, then you MIGHT be OK, but if that is your dry weight, you are going to be quite a bit over your GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating), which is the maximum allowable weight of the trailer and all your gear. I suspect that with a 12' box, you are going to be well over 2,000 lbs. with your loaded-ready-to-camp weight.

And at the very least, your combination HAS to have trailer brakes. That is simply too much trailer for that car. My minivan has a 3,500 lb. tow rating, and my pup is in the 2,100 to 2,200 lbs ready-to-camp weight. I added electric brakes and am so glad I did. Those stops headed downhill and those panic stops are so much better with the camper stopping itself and not pushing the minivan.

Please don't be offended, but I think you will get some warnings from others.

I think Wavery tows with a car, so I expect he will post something shortly. (at least I think I remember seeing a picture with a PUP hitched to a sedan).

I want to drop my 2c on the trailer brake question.  I towed my PUP (granted much heavier than yours (~3000 lbs) with my Dakota (tow rating 6500 lbs) exactly once before investing in a brake controller.  It makes a HUGE difference.

If you chose to go the car route (and I am sure there will be many who will give you the exact reasons (with accompanying tables and mathematical formulae) why not)...  a brake controller is a _must have_

Welcome to the board, Alan!

Here's some info to think about:
I have a 2004 Palomino Mustang 6147.  "Dry", or Total Weight, as Palomino calls it, is 2474 lbs.  I personally weighed the setup and the rear axle was 3050 lbs.  PLUS the hitch weight of 400-450 lbs (measured by me), adds to 3500lbs.  The stated hitch weight was 314 lbs., and the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) is 3646 lbs.

I assure you I did not add 1000 lbs. to the trailer in gear.  Along with normal camping gear, it is the camper amenities of the A/C, battery, propane, fridge, furnace, awning.....  which all is not included in the "dry" or "total" weight.

So, I highly recommend you use the Gross Weight rating in determining the tow vehicle.  In addition, typically any passengers and cargo in the tow vehicle, including your passengers, deducts from the tow rating of most all vehicles.  

What i discovered after purchasing our tow vehicle is that many also add an additional 20-25% on top of the GVWR, in selecting a tow vehicle minimum rating.  The tow ratings are based on flat, ideal conditions.  Hills, mountains, rain, wind, etc. essentially deduct your tow vehicles ability.

Once you load up the camper, your gear, cargo and passengers, you may see a bit more sag in the rear end of your century then driving home an unloaded trailer and no gear/passengers.  I used to haul a small 25hp boat with my 2001 LeSabre with 1 passenger, and wouldn't want to add much more to the rear.  And that was for a trailer hitch weight of about 75 lbs.

Now Kitchener to Detoit is very flat.  I think you will find more issues, say hauling even on I-75 to the U.P. or eastern Ohio, etc.

In my humble opinion, you would want to have brakes, with most any tow vehicle, on a trailer over 2000lbs., which your will be when loaded.

Get it weighed at a truck stop Cat scale and see where you are.

Good luck!

Quote from: TroutBumI think Wavery tows with a car, so I expect he will post something shortly. (at least I think I remember seeing a picture with a PUP hitched to a sedan).

I want to drop my 2c on the trailer brake question.  I towed my PUP (granted much heavier than yours (~3000 lbs) with my Dakota (tow rating 6500 lbs) exactly once before investing in a brake controller.  It makes a HUGE difference.

If you chose to go the car route (and I am sure there will be many who will give you the exact reasons (with accompanying tables and mathematical formulae) why not)...  a brake controller is a _must have_

Quite correct.....I "DID" tow with a 2001 Chrysler Concorde. It tows my PU just fine but I have to always leave an extra measure of caution and as our camping equipment grew, so grew our total weight.

I also added a LARGE tranny cooler and I added high performance brakes to my car (4-wheel disks). I never towed over 55 and only towed on flat land (no mountains).

You see, the critical thing about towing is that it is really more about "stopping" than it is about "pulling". You can pull a PU with almost anything. Heck....you could pull it with a toyota Carrolla or a Honda Civic. Stopping is a totally different story and there are legal requirements (stopping distances) that must be met.

After towing our PU on about 20 camp-outs, I decided that it would be safer to get a TV with a tow-rating of at least 5500# and an adequate GCVWR (gross combined vehicle weight rating).

The GCVWR is really the critical # that you have to use when towing. Your trailer rating is really kind of a bad # to go by. It normally signifies the maximum amount of weight that the vehicle can tow with a driver ONLY (no passengers or cargo). The GCVWR is the maximum amount of weight that a vehicle and tow rig combined (including passengers, cargo, fuel etc) can safely tow and STOP in the minimum amount of distance required by law.

If you do a little research, I think that you may find that your Buick is sorely lacking in GCVWR. If pulled over by the Highway Patrol, they may force you to unhitch your trailer and come back for it with a proper TV (not to mention a ticket). Worse yet, if you are involved in an accident, you may find yourself abandoned by your insurance company because you have exceeded the liability limits that they agreed to insure you under. That is why I finally upgraded. I had to face the brutal truth that what I was doing (however safe in my mind) was illegal and there could be serious consequences for my actions.

Now.......Here's a real MAN'S TV....





WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!! Maybe that's a little OVER-done....some people just have a hard time finding the right balance in this life.. :p

BTW....

WELCOME TO PUT!!!!

We personally do not tow with a car but do have friends who tow their Coleman Taos (2,000 lbs) with a newer Honda Accord Hybrid.  They have towed it up mountains (to 9,000 ft elevation) without a problem.  They don't bring along a lot of extras but do have a canoe on the car.

Jacqui

Quote from: OC CampersWe personally do not tow with a car but do have friends who tow their Coleman Taos (2,000 lbs) with a newer Honda Accord Hybrid.  They have towed it up mountains (to 9,000 ft elevation) without a problem.  They don't bring along a lot of extras but do have a canoe on the car.

Jacqui

Here's the big plus with a Hybrid......the electric motor in those things cause a LOT more drag than a gas (or diesel) engine and act as brakes (and battery charger) while going down hill. When going down long grades, they don't have to brake nearly as much a regular cars (if at all). This will go a long way toward avoiding brake fade.

Now, having said that, I would "assume" that the manufacturers take that into account when they engineer those cars. They may well have smaller braking systems for the very reason as stated above. When needed for a "panic" stop, they may not be adequate to do the job of stopping both car, trailer and all that gear.. I'd check the GCVWR very carefully.

I would still be cautious about insurance coverage. That was the breaking point for me. I called and asked. They said that if I were involved in an accident while towing over the vehicles capacity, they would not cover me. They don't care about what you have done to beef up your car. They go strictly by the manufacturers numbers.

I towed my Palomino Filly for two years with a Town Car...that being said it was 8 cylinders and a beast.  You didn't know the trailer was back there.  We had bought the trailer and the Town car off my brother so he had pulled the trailer with the Town car for a few years also. When we upgraded to the Explorer you really didn't know the pup was back there.  

Upgrade to the Hemlock...my Explorer is an 8 Cyl. 5.0 liter guzzler and you could really feel the Hemlock.  I'm used to it now though so the difference isn't so drastic anymore.

Gave the Filly to my sister.  They are pulling it with a sedan that is 2.5 liter.  My DH installed the hitch and took it for a ride to test braking and handling.  Looking at the specs they just make it as for as weight and tongue weight is concerned.  Her DH had no problems pulling the thing home...no problems braking.  The Filly weight is just over 1000 lbs.  I told her she needed to get a tranny cooler...we'll see if she does.  I also told her not to load the thing up.  She's going to have to do with less...but some times less is more. :-)  If they like camping they can invest in a vehicle upgrade if they wish.  Till then they'll do nicely with what they have.


CC

Quote from: WingdreamerHi, first post and excited to join the crowd! I recently purchased an 07 Palomino Yearling with a 12 foot box, (no elect or surge brakes) new from a dealer in Michigan. This is my first trailer, as I have been a tenter for 35 plus years. I presently own a 2000 Buick Century, with a rated tow capacity of 2000 lbs. I have added a transmission cooler to it as well. The GVW dry weight of the trailer is 1790lbs, with a tongue weight of 180 lbs. I had a custom fabricated 2" square hitch welded to the frame of the Buick, with a 3500 lb capacity. I towed this pop up home from Port Huron Michigan to Kitchener Ontario (180 miles) with no problems. I realize that most of you use pickups, vans and SUV's to tow with. Myself, I tend to prefer a conventional car to the above, and have decided not to purchase a truck or van to tow with. I do not plan to travel extensively at this time (no more than 5-10 hours from home) as I have teenagers who are rapidly loosing interest in family camping and no longer want to come with my wife and me. (Therefore, we are not really keen on being too far from home.....) Although I can obviously feel the weight of the trailer when towing it, it did not appear to be much of an issue at all to tow. The car appears to have a solid rear suspension, as it settled very little when the trailer was attached. The car has only 60,000 miles on it and is in like new condition, and rust free.
Here is my question: Aside from those of you who presently tow with a truck/van/SUV, who is pulling their pup with a car? Do you believe that this car CANNOT SAFELY pull this trailer? Should I install electric brakes? Do you have any recommendations of what I can add to the car, hitch or trailer for added towing safety? Do I need to?
All things considered, I grew up in an era where MOST people towed not only pups but TT's with the family wagon or car. In that era, pups and TT's weighed a lot more, although yes, cars were heavier as well. My brother towed a vintage '77 pup all over the eastern seaboard for 11 years with a 1990 Lumina car and had no problems. That trailer was a boat anchor! As for my new trailer, this is one of the lighter pups in a 12' box, which I feel is relative to the capacity of the car. Even though GM rates this car at 2000 lb towing capacity, I am certain that for liability reasons, they "under rate" what it can pull. Also, by adding a transmission cooler, I would think that the towing capacity would also increase a bit. As a newbee to the pup trailer pulling crowd, what are your suggestions and opinions? Thanks!! Alan

When I saw your post I questioned a couple of your numbers. The reason being is we just traded off our 2003 Chevy Impala which is a similar vehicle to your Buick. The Impala only had a 1000 lbs towing rating.
 
It took some searching but the website below listed the specs for your Buick.
 
http://www.wheels.ca/newVehicles/compare/7179
 
At least on that site the specs for your Buick agree with the Impala we had with only 1000 lbs towing rating and 100 lbs tounge weight.
 
We had considered trading our Impala for a Chevy Venture but I decided the power and torque was too low along with the final gear ratio was too high. Your Buick will suffer from the same problem with:
 
HP       175 @ 5200
Torque 195 @ 4000
Final ratio   3.05
 
That isn't a Final gear ratio intended for towing.
 
We ended up trading our 2003 Impala for a 2003 Ford Windstar.

Hello.  My name is Jim and I tow with a car.

Quote from: camping nuts...
HP       175 @ 5200
Torque 195 @ 4000
Final ratio   3.05
That isn't a Final gear ratio intended for towing.
...

Here's the difference- my car numbers play out like this:

HP: Not that important by itself
Torque: over 200 at every point between 2000 and 6000 rpm
Final ratio   4.44

Definitely more suited for towing.

Hi, Thanks for all of your replies. In response to towing capacity, see the attached link that I found. I have found numerous links  (including from GM) indicating that the towing capacity is 2000 lbs. I had a 1997 Grand Prix that was only 1000 lbs capacity, and was the reason why I went to the Buick at 2000 lbs...
http://www.westherr.com/Vehicle_Search_Wizard_View_Review.cfm?make=Buick&model=Century&year=2000
I will definitely look into putting electric brakes on the trailer over the winter. Anyone have any suggestions for brands or types of brakes I should look into?  Thanks again, Alan

Quote from: JimQPublicHello. My name is Jim and I tow with a car.
 
 
 
Here's the difference- my car numbers play out like this:
 
HP: Not that important by itself
Torque: over 200 at every point between 2000 and 6000 rpm
Final ratio 4.44
 
Definitely more suited for towing.

Jim,
 
That's because a Subaru really isn't a car. It is the original SUV before all these want-a-bees SUVs and crossovers came along.
:)

Hi, I tow with a car, but it's a '96 Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon featuring a Chevy LT1 (260hp, 335lb/ft, before mods). I have a 3.73 rear axle and I added Airlift helper bags in my rear springs. The car's rated to tow 5000 with the factory 2.93 rear axle, but the Caddy Fleetwood (basically same car, diff body) with 3.42 from the factory is rated 7000 lbs. I have a 10,000 lb receiver, FWIW.

So, I think I'm fine towing my '01 Niagara which supposedly weighs 3,350, including tongue weight. And yes, it has electric brakes, and I really like them.

Quote from: pakaloloHi, I tow with a car, but it's a '96 Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon featuring a Chevy LT1 (260hp, 335lb/ft, before mods). I have a 3.73 rear axle and I added Airlift helper bags in my rear springs. The car's rated to tow 5000 with the factory 2.93 rear axle, but the Caddy Fleetwood (basically same car, diff body) with 3.42 from the factory is rated 7000 lbs. I have a 10,000 lb receiver, FWIW.
 
So, I think I'm fine towing my '01 Niagara which supposedly weighs 3,350, including tongue weight. And yes, it has electric brakes, and I really like them.

With that car you could pull Alan's Buick with his camper on behind!!:yikes:
 
So if I may ask, what kind of gas mileage do you get with your Roadmaster both when you are towing and when you aren't?
 
I am going to make a guess of 23 MPG empty and 17 MPG towing.
 
In all reality a vehicle like your will make a monkey out most minivans, mid-size SUVs and all crossovers for almost everything people need them for. I am assuming it plays with your Niagra.

excellent.  here's the type of brakes on our Pal Mustang:
http://www.al-kousa.com/

QuoteI will definitely look into putting electric brakes on the trailer over the winter. Anyone have any suggestions for brands or types of brakes I should look into?  Thanks again, Alan

Suggest you get it weighed with gear and family.  Deduct car curb weight and your weight (generally assumed 150lbs. by tow raters(?)) and that will give you an idea of how much of your towing rating   I bet you lunch, that with your gear and family, you are overweight and your trailer does not weigh 1700lbs.  

Happy camping.

Quote from: WingdreamerI have found numerous links (including from GM) indicating that the towing capacity is 2000 lbs.
 http://www.westherr.com/Vehicle_Search_Wizard_View_Review.cfm?make=Buick&model=Century&year=2000

Quote from: camping nutsWith that car you could pull Alan's Buick with his camper on behind!!:yikes:
 
So if I may ask, what kind of gas mileage do you get with your Roadmaster both when you are towing and when you aren't?
 
I am going to make a guess of 23 MPG empty and 17 MPG towing.
 
In all reality a vehicle like your will make a monkey out most minivans, mid-size SUVs and all crossovers for almost everything people need them for. I am assuming it plays with your Niagra.

I wish I got those kinds of numbers. The earlier RMWs (throttle-body injected, instead of direct port) were able to see that kind of mileage. My firebreather, however, is about 13.5 in the city (I drive in traffic almost all the time), and has gone as high as 21 on highway, loaded, but not towing. Since the swap to 3.73s, it's more like 19 to 20 on the highway at 75 to 80.

I haven't towed very far with it yet, but tomorrow I'm riding to Tampa from Miami, towing, so I'll let you know. I'm budgeting it based on 13 mpg, as I doubt it will be worse than that (I hope!).

On the positive side, it's faster than a lot of cars on the road, and has the potential to be even faster with some hot-rodding. All that fun for $4k ;)

Anybody else towing a pop-up worth more than their tow vehicle?

Quote from: pakaloloI wish I got those kinds of numbers. The earlier RMWs (throttle-body injected, instead of direct port) were able to see that kind of mileage. My firebreather, however, is about 13.5 in the city (I drive in traffic almost all the time), and has gone as high as 21 on highway, loaded, but not towing. Since the swap to 3.73s, it's more like 19 to 20 on the highway at 75 to 80.
 
I haven't towed very far with it yet, but tomorrow I'm riding to Tampa from Miami, towing, so I'll let you know. I'm budgeting it based on 13 mpg, as I doubt it will be worse than that (I hope!).
 
On the positive side, it's faster than a lot of cars on the road, and has the potential to be even faster with some hot-rodding. All that fun for $4k ;)
 
Anybody else towing a pop-up worth more than their tow vehicle?

Well our 2000 Windstar is probably worth less than our 2006 Jayco. But a couple of weeks ago we traded our 2003 Impala for a 2003 Windstar so once we start using the 2003 instead of the 2000 to tow with it will be worth more than the PUP. Remember those PUP tires aren't rated for more than 65 MPH... Don't want you to have any unplanned stops....

Quote from: camping nutsRemember those PUP tires aren't rated for more than 65 MPH... Don't want you to have any unplanned stops....

Good to know! I didn't realize that. I was thinking of upgrading to some 14" radials when it's time to replace the original 13" bias plys. I wonder if that'll help. Guess it's time to start researching on the good ol' Interweb.

Quote from: pakaloloGood to know! I didn't realize that. I was thinking of upgrading to some 14" radials when it's time to replace the original 13" bias plys. I wonder if that'll help. Guess it's time to start researching on the good ol' Interweb.

Make sure that when you purchase tires that you get "Trailer" tires (LT or ST) and don't use automobile or truck tires. They are subject to different stresses and are built differently. Here is a good place to start learning about trailer tires:
http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTrailerTireFacts.dos

I don't know much about towing ratings - I have a 1999 chevy astro and a 1973 Starcraft Starmaster 6.  I know I'm well within my ratings as given by my vehicle manual.  

However, I used to tow my little starlette with a 1993? olds ciera.  But let me stress that that pup was TINY.  the beds didn't slide in - they folded. they were basically hollow core folding doors with pads on them. the pads stored down the center of the tiny dinette and took up all but about 1' of floor space.  We took out the water tank for storage, and only had the two 3 1/2 ' dinette seats for storage of all our gear.  the trailer was so light, I could push it around a lumpy campsite like a big wheelbarrow.

someone above mentioned that 'pulling' wasn't the problem - stopping was.  this little camper was so light that even with the ciera, I never knew it was back there unless the tires were low or there was some other kind of problem. (it tended to fishtail a bit if the tires weren't properly inflated.)

What I have seen way too many people do is get a trailer that their vehicle can tow - be it a camper, boat or flatbed - and then WAY overload it and the tow vehicle with stuff.  it is amazing how quickly the weight adds up. you also have to have an eye to balancing the weight - not put too much toward the front or back, or on one side. My SO tends to want to FILL the whole space of the passenger side dinette seat with heavy tools - it has an access door right at the camper door - so we can grab tools if there's a breakdown on the road without popping up.  This was undoubtedly handy when we DID have to change a flat on the tow vehicle on a nighttime wisconsin highway, but we have to constantly make calls on what we REALLY NEED and what we think we need.

so watch the loading of your camper, too.

laura

Quote from: waveryMake sure that when you purchase tires that you get "Trailer" tires (LT or ST) and don't use automobile or truck tires. They are subject to different stresses and are built differently. Here is a good place to start learning about trailer tires:
 http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTrailerTireFacts.dos

Your absolutely right. Trailer tires have much stiffer sidewalls and use much higher pressure. Using auto or truck tires will result in serious sway and bounch issues. Campers don't have advanced suspension like cars or trucks.

Also make sure you also pay attention to the load rating. I was looking at tires Wal-Mart. The best ST (Special Trailer) tires they had Load B rating. My PUP needs Load D rated tires.

Lastely keep the tires inflated near the max pressure rating. The dealer we bought ours at had the tires inflated to 35 PSI. After doing some checking I found out they need to be at 50 PSI. The reason I was checking was I noticed after our first trip that the tires were warm to the touch when they were at 35 PSI. The rolling resistance is lower when they are inflated properly.

The tires on our Niagara are supposed to be at 60 lbs. They're size c78-13st. I was thinking about trying to get something with a higher rating, because one of my concerns with our Niagara is the extremely limited cargo carrying capacity. The whole trailer is limited to 3,350 and I believe with accessories, it's already there. Doesn't leave much room for cargo!

Anyone know what other size wheel and tire I can squeeze under there and get a higher per tire rating?