I just read an article about a competition that's been taking place since 1939 called the Shell EcoMarathon. People from all over the world develop gas powered cars and compete to see who can get the most mileage from one gallon of gas.
This year the French team will try to beat the record they set last year of (now get this) 8,924 miles to the gallon. Yeah you heard me right 8,924 miles to the gallon. Sure this is a one seater and it's light as a feather and it only travels about 20 miles an hour, but don't you think with this kind of engineering and brain power they could do a lot better with the vehicles us regular folks drive.
I'm not asking for 8,924 miles to the gallon, hell just give me 1% of that, I'll settle for 89 miles to the gallon just let me keep my A/C, radio and continue to tow my pup.
Ya think the oil companies have a deal worked out with the car manufacturers to keep the mileage low and the fuel consumption up.
Anyway, I just had to vent.
CajunCamper
Years and years ago I had heard that a man came up with an invention that would let cars get 100 mpg's. I heard that the oil companies promptly bought his invention.
On another note, there was an article in our local paper that Shell had posted a 9 billion, yes that's BILLION dollar profit for last quarter. Not the year but for one quarter. Then they have the urge to tell us that they are only passing on the increases to us. Remember back in the 70's when oil prices only seemed to go up when OPEC would meet and decide to raise prices? Now it seems that the oil companies use any excuse in the world to raise prices. Reasons that I have heard have been hurricanes, refineries shut down for maintenance, fire at a refinery, switching to summer blend and I think once they said that some guy named Bill had called in sick and they had to raise prices just in case he didn't get better and had to stay out and extended time. Gotta love the oil companies.
It's all a conspiracy :eyecrazy:
I agree with Dee4j on this one. I remember in the mid 70's when gas went to 0.60 a gallon. I thought I was going to have to stop cruising! We are getting closer and closer to "Mad Max" days I tell ya!
Time for some solutions (http://blizzard.rwic.und.edu/~nordlie/water_injection/local_copies/goodman/059-046-01.htm) ! Remember these?
Way back. when gasoline first hit $1.00/gallon it seemed that everyone's dad in my neighborhood was ordering J.C. Whitney catalogs so they could install their own water injector! That was the first time I ever heard of J.C. Whitney!! :D
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Before we start going too crazy on the conspiracy theories, I thought I would add my theory.
Let's say I build a house and it cost me $100k, and I decide to sell the house. It is the only house on the street and 10 people want to buy it. I start at $110k for a reasonable profit. The next thing you know we are in a bidding war and the top bid is $200k. I sell the house for $200k and and make $100k profit. What did I do wrong? I didn't build 10 houses so I could sell them each for $110k.
The same is true for fuel. OPEC and other suppliers regulate how much oil they will pump and refineries convert it into gas. If they don't pump enough or refine enough then we get into a bidding war with others that want fuel. This includes some of the fastest growing populations like India and China. We are not expanding our drilling or Shale conversion in the US and we are not building new refineries so we are helping to limit supply.
Prices for fuel are set by the commodities markets in NY and Chicago not by some big wig in Dallas or Saudi Arabia.
The part I am not sure about is how much control the companies like Exxon and BP have over how much they are allowed to pump and how much is determined by the contracts they have with the foreign governments where they are pumping.
OK, I will put my soap box back in the closet now.
I can remember when gas was .10 and .11 cents a gallon during the Great Depression. Back then, a lot of people did not have cars and many of those who did could not afford to buy gas so they did a lot of walking, riding bicycles, buses and car pooling. The population of America was about half of what it is now so it was not neccessary to import any oil and just about every thing was made or grown in the USA.
Of course it's a conspiracy. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck.
If we've got the fuel resources to power this BS war in Iraq and Afganistan for the last......oh......6-7 years, then we've got the recources to fuel our own country by ourselves and not buy anyone's oil. Don't forget that most of our oil is sold to overseas, including what comes from Alaska. And what about those huge blow-off flames that run 24/7 on the drilling platforms in Alaska. Funny how with global warming and melting polar ice, those insanely huge blow torches continue to burn around the clock.
The reason why the mileage contest is run by a petroleum giant is simple. Find out who's got the technology, buy it, and throw it away. Want to see the industry hard at work? Go rent the DVD, "Who Killed The Electric Car."
Quote from: CajunCamperI just read an article about a competition that's been taking place since 1939 called the Shell EcoMarathon. People from all over the world develop gas powered cars and compete to see who can get the most mileage from one gallon of gas.
This year the French team will try to beat the record they set last year of (now get this) 8,924 miles to the gallon. Yeah you heard me right 8,924 miles to the gallon. Sure this is a one seater and it's light as a feather and it only travels about 20 miles an hour, but don't you think with this kind of engineering and brain power they could do a lot better with the vehicles us regular folks drive.
I'm not asking for 8,924 miles to the gallon, hell just give me 1% of that, I'll settle for 89 miles to the gallon just let me keep my A/C, radio and continue to tow my pup.
Ya think the oil companies have a deal worked out with the car manufacturers to keep the mileage low and the fuel consumption up.
Anyway, I just had to vent.
CajunCamper
Thats what I've been wondering lately. A friend of mine purchased a 86' CRX HF ni 87'. He bragged about his top of
58mpg on a trip from SC to Wisconsin. Mind you that he was moving with all of his stuff, it was packed so tight he the only "wiggle" room he had was in his seat. The only window he could see out of was his drivers side window.
So.... how is that we now have these expensive hybrids that get only marginally better gas mileage than a non-hybrid, but had cars in the 80's with close to 60 mpg's????? :confused: AND competitions like CajunCamper speaks of with better than 8,000 mpg's ???? :compumad:
P.S. I'm just a "youngster" here, I remember pumping at $0.45 per gallon, and didn't get too excited until $1.10.
I hear ya!
My Dad has been yakking for years (he's 65) about how "years ago" there was a gas engine invented that got 55+ mpg but "someone" didn't want it to be known. The older I get, the less crazy he sounds.
I personally DO NOT believe that we can have all of our modern conveniences (cell phones, computers, medical advances, etc.) and not have a gasoline engine that gives high mpg yields. It just doesn't make sense. Something's wrong here.
I too laugh at all the hybrids. There have been high mileage cars around since the late 50's, it's just that nobody cared back then.
For example:
1959 the Britished introduced the 850cc Mini.....40+mpg easily
1962 British introduce the 1100/1300 sedans and wagons....high 30's.
1970 Honda introduced the 600.....45-50mpg all day long
1973 Honda intruduced the Civic.....high 30's, easily
1974 VW introduced the gas Rabbit.....high 30's
1977 VW introduced the diesel Rabbit....50mpg
1980 VW introduced the diesel Rabbit pickup.....50mpg
In the mid 80's VW's with tall 5 speeds got mid to high 30's at speed on the freeway. Honda's line continued to get high 30's and up into the 50's as noted above. VW continues production of their diesel and turbo diesel cars, although they were not allowed in CA, they all got in the 50mpg range.
1995/96 VW introduces the TDI diesels. Quiet, as powerful as the gas cars, and 52mpg on the freeway at 75+mph. Their TDI's are still the highest mileage getting cars.
What VW and Honda did with standard engines is still impressive to this day. What Toyota has done with a hundred million dollars worth of research and technology.........uh, not so impressive, and their transaxles are already failing, not to mention the battery packs.
I have to agree with not being impressed with the mileage vehicles get today.
In 1988 I had a 1987 Honda CRX and could get 60 mpg on the hiway and 46 mpg in town. That was with 21 year old technology. I haven't seen a vehicle today that gets that, hybrid or otherwise.
I also have a 1990 Ford Mustang GT with the hi output 5.0 liter. The car is a blast to drive and plenty of power and gets 30 mpg on the hiway and 22 in town. Today I see all kinds of commercials for boring underpowered econoboxes that brag about 30 mpg or a little better on the hiway.
I also have a 1979 IH Scout II that is built for playing in the rocks ie:it is heavy with skidplates, spare parts, tools, big tires and all kinds of extras that add lots of weight and it gets 15 mpg on the hiway...heck that is what some of the new suv's of similar weight and aerodynamics (or maybe the lack there of) get.
Any one see a problem here?????
I don't know if my vehicles are exceptions to the rule or what but I doubt it.
DT
I had sort of forgotten that Honda was king of mileage, until just recently when a neighbor was talking about looking for one of the old 80's ones; that they are gold right now and impossible to find.
We have friends with an '02 Dogde Durango that gets 16/21. My wife's Aunt and Uncle own a Prius and it only gets 35ish on the highway when it's in gasoline engine mode. Our $1,400 '86 Jetta gas would get 37 on the highway at 70+mph, and had 220k on the clock when we sold it. I'm looking forward to seeing the Prius' at 200k.....and hearing about the thousands spent on them for batteries and electronics.
I've always said that the 1st person to develop the next generation battery, that will actually last, will become richer than Bill Gates.
It really disturbs me that there hasn't been more of a concerted effort placed on developing fuel cell automobiles. To heck with "Fuel economy". That mentality has to stop. We must get away from the internal combustion engine.
That's one of the great things in the movie "Who Killed The Electric Car." There is a guy who invented "that" battery. IIRC GM bought the patents and then sold them to Texaco. Then GM put standard batteries in the EV-1 because CA was going to mandate that a higher and higher percentage of EV's be sold. GM wanted to show that EV's weren't viable because there were no good batteries for them and people weren't going to buy a car that couldn't go anywhere. It's mind numbing.
Quote from: MomboTNBefore we start going too crazy on the conspiracy theories, I thought I would add my theory.
Let's say I build a house and it cost me $100k, and I decide to sell the house. It is the only house on the street and 10 people want to buy it. I start at $110k for a reasonable profit. The next thing you know we are in a bidding war and the top bid is $200k. I sell the house for $200k and and make $100k profit. What did I do wrong? I didn't build 10 houses so I could sell them each for $110k.
The same is true for fuel. OPEC and other suppliers regulate how much oil they will pump and refineries convert it into gas. If they don't pump enough or refine enough then we get into a bidding war with others that want fuel. This includes some of the fastest growing populations like India and China. We are not expanding our drilling or Shale conversion in the US and we are not building new refineries so we are helping to limit supply.
Prices for fuel are set by the commodities markets in NY and Chicago not by some big wig in Dallas or Saudi Arabia.
The part I am not sure about is how much control the companies like Exxon and BP have over how much they are allowed to pump and how much is determined by the contracts they have with the foreign governments where they are pumping.
OK, I will put my soap box back in the closet now.
That kind of common sense approach doesn't fly.
In this day and age, common sense and simple economic facts (supply and demand curve) don't have any place. [/sarcasm]
Gas prices
Quote from: jmaddoxThat kind of common sense approach doesn't fly.
In this day and age, common sense and simple economic facts (supply and demand curve) don't have any place. [/sarcasm]
Gas prices
You must have passed economics 101. The part I don't understand is that they pump the oil out of the ground, send it however far to the refinery, refine it. Then it gets sent to the distribution center from there onto a truck to your local gas station. Then the Gov't tacks on 60-75 cents a gallon and the gas station puts some profit in it. Then I pay $3.50 a gallon.
My local farmer milks his cows, trucks it to the dairy, it is pasturized and bottled. Sent to the grocery and I pay $5.00 a gallon.
We can blame it on corn price due to ethanol or those greedy farmers.
The previous two posts sum it up rather well. The only thing I will add is that you don't have to sit around and act like a victim. There are (and have been) plenty of publicly held oil/drilling/refining companies that you could have (and still can) invest your money in. Do this for a couple of years and you won't really care what the price of gas is.
Think about this. Don't drive. Wouldn't it be nice if we weren't dependent on the automobile?
There is a serious problem with the way city and county governments have been planning their respective jurisdictions for years. It's called the SUBURBS! One of the biggest problems with the suburbs is that it separates by great distances where one works and lives. To fix this many cities are trying to redevelop downtowns, so that people can live closer to where they work and maybe even WALK to work. I used to do this and believe me it's wonderful to not have to drive every day.
It used to be that the urban centers were poor and inexpensive to live. Now the trend to redevelop has made living in a downtown more expensive than the suburbs. I still think it's worth it, just think of the money you'll save by not needing a car, or at least not driving it as much.
Question: About those high gas mileage vehicles of 20 + years ago ...
Has not the US govenment imposed more environmental restraints since those days, affecting gas mileage? (Seems I heard that arguement somewhere before)
I think much of our problem is government regulation. The more the government stays out of our lives and lets the market determine what vehicles are offered (which is what we will buy), the better off we'll be.
I agree with Fly...government regulation has effectively reduced the gas mileage of today's cars compared to what current technology would offer without all the 'smog' stuff.
Also, regarding gas prices, I heard a statistic yesterday that since '84, our crude oil usage has gone up 30%, but our refinery production here in the U.S. has declined 40%. That's very poor government policy in my book! Government regulation, environmentalists' agendas, and activist judges have severely limited our production here.
Quote from: fallsriderI think much of our problem is government regulation. The more the government stays out of our lives and lets the market determine what vehicles are offered (which is what we will buy), the better off we'll be.
I agree with Fly...government regulation has effectively reduced the gas mileage of today's cars compared to what current technology would offer without all the 'smog' stuff.
Also, regarding gas prices, I heard a statistic yesterday that since '84, our crude oil usage has gone up 30%, but our refinery production here in the U.S. has declined 40%. That's very poor government policy in my book! Government regulation, environmentalists' agendas, and activist judges have severely limited our production here.
Yep.....and until lobbyists and special interest groups are cut off at the knees, prices will continue up. At some point JQ Public (you and I) will not be able to tolerate the high prices and government medaling in a (suposedly) free-market economy will stop. At that point, the oil companies will be free to operate in a similar fashion to the rest of the world and prices will come down. It may take that $10 a gallon price tag to do the job but whatever it takes, that's what the oil companies have to do.
I don't like it any more than anyone else but until we start electing people that won't put up with special interest groups, we will continue to be punished by our own government and we have no one to blame but ourselves.
Quote from: Old StarcraftThats what I've been wondering lately. A friend of mine purchased a 86' CRX HF ni 87'. He bragged about his top of 58mpg on a trip from SC to Wisconsin. Mind you that he was moving with all of his stuff, it was packed so tight he the only "wiggle" room he had was in his seat. The only window he could see out of was his drivers side window.
So.... how is that we now have these expensive hybrids that get only marginally better gas mileage than a non-hybrid, but had cars in the 80's with close to 60 mpg's????? :confused: AND competitions like CajunCamper speaks of with better than 8,000 mpg's ???? :compumad:
P.S. I'm just a "youngster" here, I remember pumping at $0.45 per gallon, and didn't get too excited until $1.10.
Back in the GOOD OLD DAYS engines were not as bogged down with all the standards for tail pipe exhaust. There for they we able to preform at a higher level and were not set up to be "green".
And gasoline contained no ethanol (burns quicker and cooler, lowers mpg).
Watching gas prices go up is like watch a bad movie and you can't find the remote to change the channel.
Oil prices are mostly being driven up by oil speculators. This is a world problem and not just ours..The oil market will eventually collapse [gold too] and probably at a faster rate than it went up.. The big question is when.....
Just wondering if anyone else had thought of.......
You know how larger companies like BP, Shell, and Exxon have always sold fuel at a little higher price claiming that the additives they put in help clean fuel injectors, e.t.c.. Well at one point I'm sure these "additives" were more costly than fuel, but how about now? I wonder if the cost of fuel risen past the cost of these "additives", and if so isn't that the same principal of "watering down" gasoline?, eventhough under the premise of improvement the cost of their gas is still higher than others.
I just thought of this pumping gas at (caution this could make the west coast folks a little jealous) $3.66 with an additive called "Invigorate" (Don't forgot the name of the gas station). Considering just down the street I found it at $3.49
Ford posts a profit of 100 mil selling SUV's and luxury cars to China and other Asia countries. China caps the cost of Gasoline to its citizens at 3.00 per gallon, allour mfg jobs were shipped overseas thanks to NAFTA!
Add to that the commodity market, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out!
Quote from: garym053Ford posts a profit of 100 mil selling SUV's and luxury cars to China and other Asia countries. China caps the cost of Gasoline to its citizens at 3.00 per gallon, allour mfg jobs were shipped overseas thanks to NAFTA!
Add to that the commodity market, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out!
Ford's profit is nothing compared to Toyota's, which is nothing compare to Exon, Bp, Shell ect ect ect
Is it true that the oil we import from other countries is purchased by the U.S. Government and then sold to the oil companies here in the states? I'm in the dark on this one. Also I just read that Congress is in the process of passing a bill that would stop the government from taking a large portion of the imported oil and placing it in our Strategic Oil Reserves for a while in an attempt to lower the price.
By the way one of the largest Strategic Oil Reserve facilities is about 10 miles from where I live as the crow flies. If you didn't know it was there, you wouldn't even notice it and still have a hard time noticing it even when you know it's there.
CajunCamper
Viking Camper, my point about Ford's 100 Mil profit wasn't to compare it to other companies. It was that they made it selling gas guzzlers to China where the prices are subsidized and consumers pay $3.00 per gal tops.
I believe Ford lost money on US sales. BUT at least SOME US company got some of our Walmart money back from China!!!
Cajun,
The goverment was alloting 70,000 barrels a day into the Strategic Oil Reserve which at present levels would give the USA about a two month supply in an emergency.....I have also heard what you say about the oil reserve not being noticed...Enviromentalists would never mention this fact...