A recent thread elsewhere on this forum is asking what we've done to help the economy. Several posters have indicated making some rather significant expenditures that might do that. My question here would be...What has the economy ever done to help us? It's a logical and legitimate question. If we help the economy, why should not the economy return the favor and help us at some point in time? Has it ever happened? Would consistent pay raises be an indication of this happening? A low unemployment rate? So, how do you think this might happen that the economy would help us? What might you all think about this?
Okay heres my stab at an answer....... the way I help the economy and the economy helps me is by offering sales and coupons for things. If something is offered at a good/ affordable deal then I help the economy by making my purchase. Does that make sense?
Buying things isn't going to help this economy. That's why we're in the state we're in right now.......we've become a consumer economy, instead of a manufacturing economy.
Buying a monster TV that was made in a village in Mexico or an industrial ghetto in China or Taiwan, doesn't help our economy....other than some 19yr old at Best Buy continues to be employed at minimum wage.
The economy "should" be helping us by providing jobs and careers. The government "should" be helping the economy by making sure that jobs stay here in America.......you want to sell something in the USA, then you better build it here. We intern would be helping the economy by working and producing products to a standard that is so good, the products want to be purchased.
Use the model from the Great Depression in the '30s. The government tried to put people to work, building this country. Of course WWII helped that effort out tremendously, and then after the war people went to work, started companies, bought homes and cars, and other goods. It was made here, and bought here, and people weren't running up umpteen thousand dollars in CC debt, so they could live better than their wage allowed.
That's my 2 cents worth.
Quote from: austinado16Buying things isn't going to help this economy. That's why we're in the state we're in right now.......we've become a consumer economy, instead of a manufacturing economy.
Buying a monster TV that was made in a village in Mexico or an industrial ghetto in China or Taiwan, doesn't help our economy....other than some 19yr old at Best Buy continues to be employed at minimum wage.
The economy "should" be helping us by providing jobs and careers. The government "should" be helping the economy by making sure that jobs stay here in America.......you want to sell something in the USA, then you better build it here. We intern would be helping the economy by working and producing products to a standard that is so good, the products want to be purchased.
Use the model from the Great Depression in the '30s. The government tried to put people to work, building this country. Of course WWII helded that effort out tremendously, and then after the war people went to work, started companies, bought homes and cars, and other goods. It was made here, and bought here, and people weren't running up umpteen thousand in CC debt so they could live better than their wage allowed.
That's my 2 cents worth.
I couldn't have said it better.
CajunCamper
Quote from: austinado16Buying things isn't going to help this economy. That's why we're in the state we're in right now.......we've become a consumer economy, instead of a manufacturing economy.
Buying a monster TV that was made in a village in Mexico or an industrial ghetto in China or Taiwan, doesn't help our economy....other than some 19yr old at Best Buy continues to be employed at minimum wage.
The economy "should" be helping us by providing jobs and careers. The government "should" be helping the economy by making sure that jobs stay here in America.......you want to sell something in the USA, then you better build it here. We intern would be helping the economy by working and producing products to a standard that is so good, the products want to be purchased.
Use the model from the Great Depression in the '30s. The government tried to put people to work, building this country. Of course WWII helded that effort out tremendously, and then after the war people went to work, started companies, bought homes and cars, and other goods. It was made here, and bought here, and people weren't running up umpteen thousand in CC debt so they could live better than their wage allowed.
That's my 2 cents worth.
Those are all great points and I totally agree ;)
Hi,
Interesting indeed. Here is my take - as the instigator of the 'previous thread jumpstarting the economy by spending some money'
Yes we are all guilty of participating in the consumer society- some more than others I might add. In my opinion it's an easy decision: if you can afford it, it's OK to buy it; if you cannot, wait a bit and save more or at least use credit wisely. That my friends is what the economy has done for us. Extend credit and then some.
Unfortunately for some folks, enough is/was never enough. Throw in a few unscrupolous mortgage brokers, credit card approvers, and other commissioned sweet talkers and bingo, the stage is set for collapse.
Envy and greed will always, yes always, lead to a downfall.
Here is my final thought. Consensus seems to be to produce and buy American. Let me tell you it's hard to do. But you could start by calling/emailing your bank, ISP, insurance company, help desk, ... and letting them know you don't appreciate someone answering the phone in a call center in Bangalore India. You could ask your grocery store to stock up on local produce. You could give your business to local mom and pop stores rather than big chains. You want jobs, services, manufactoring to come back to the USA, ask for it and demand it and vote with your spending power. Trust me, the goverment isn't gonna do it for you and neither is corporate America.
Once cent at a time does it. So please do spend a little money if you can and try to spend it into our own (local) economy.
All the best to you guys!
-Christian.
There is one reason and one reason only that America is not a major manufacturer in the global competition for market share.......IT'S THE UNIONS......
If you want to "Buy American", you'd better be prepared to pay a premium price for an inferior product. All this talk that "American workers are the best in the world" is a bunch of crap. If that were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion. American products fall far short in quality and way too high in price. That is why AMERICANS are buying Japanese, European and ....yes....dare I say.....Korean and Chinese products, including cars.
We have an administration (or should I say a President) that is hell bent at controlling the auto industry and keeping the unions alive at a time that the manufacturers are desperately trying to get out from under the unions so that they can compete and keep our country alive.
We won't buy their cars because they are over priced and poorly built but the gvm't wants to interfere and keep the Unions (not the companies) alive at the expense to tax payers. How the hell is that going to work????
If you want the economy to help us.......vote with your dollars and your letters. Tell the gvm't to stay the hell out of private enterprise and don't spend your $ on any cars until the US can compete. We CANNOT compete at the current labor rate to build automobiles (or anything else).
The US wanted a global economy.....well, we got it and we can't compete. Until we are willing to live on the wages that the rest of the world is making, we will not compete......either that or we close the doors.
OH PLEASE...........DON'T GET ME STARTED :swear: ........UGH......It's just simple math stupid.....
Wayne and Christian, I totally agree.
It's really a screwed situation. On the one had, people need to get a fair wage, so they can live where they work, raise families, buy homes and cars and other stuff, send kids to college, retire, etc. People also need to be treated and "worked" a certain way where they work. Those things need to be "protected," but the way it's been done by unions has broken the back of this country.
Let's face it, if I owned a car company and the union was forcing me to pay people $$$$$$/hr and on top of that the EPA was making me take care of pollution, and I was dealing with a dozen or so other regulatory factors (or a hundred, or whatever) If I found out some village in Mexico would give me the land, build me a factory for 10cents/sq.ft., provide an army of hungry workers at $/week who were easily trained and detail oriented, and I could dump my pollution into the air and ground........guess where my cars would be built?
You're right, it is simple math, I certainly don't have a solution, and our situation isn't going to change any time soon.
Quote from: austinado16Wayne and Christian, I totally agree.
It's really a screwed situation. On the one had, people need to get a fair wage, so they can live where they work, raise families, buy homes and cars and other stuff, send kids to college, retire, etc. People also need to be treated and "worked" a certain way where they work. Those things need to be "protected," but the way it's been done by unions has broken the back of this country.
Let's face it, if I owned a car company and the union was forcing me to pay people $$$$$$/hr and on top of that the EPA was making me take care of pollution, and I was dealing with a dozen or so other regulatory factors (or a hundred, or whatever) If I found out some village in Mexico would give me the land, build me a factory for 10cents/sq.ft., provide an army of hungry workers at $/week who were easily trained and detail oriented, and I could dump my pollution into the air and ground........guess where my cars would be built?
You're right, it is simple math, I certainly don't have a solution, and our situation isn't going to change any time soon.
You know....you're right. The problem is in the interpretation of "people need to get a fair wage, so they can live where they work, raise families, buy homes and cars and other stuff, send kids to college, retire, etc".
Americans feel a certain "Entitlement" to be able to live in a 3400sq ft home with hardwood floors, custom ceramic tile everywhere, granite and S/s steel all over the place.......then......they are average. Does the rest of the world live like that????? NOOOOOOOO!!! If they did, cars would average $200K instead of $40K.....I can't even believe either of those numbers.
The bottom line is, in order for America to compete on a global basis, we MUST cut our standard of living.
It's not about polluting or gvm't regulations........all that stuff is manageable. The freaking unions have become nothing more than organized crime syndicates and they are holding industry hostage.
It's true that the unions were needed at one point in our history. Then they got the thirst for control and greed. They have been ruining our country ever since.
Quote from: waveryIt's not about polluting or gvm't regulations........all that stuff is manageable. The freaking unions have become nothing more than organized crime syndicates and they are holding industry hostage.
It's true that the unions were needed at one point in our history. Then they got the thirst for control and greed. They have been ruining our country ever since.
Agreed. And in many places where these factories (for example) were/are located, homes were dirt cheap, and yet the unions were forcing wages that were well above the cost of living. Now the jobs are gone.....been shipped to Mexico, China, and anywhere else....and what are those unions doing for the 10's of thousands out of work.
And it's not just "factories" per se. It's everywhere, where a product could be outsourced for pennies on the dollar. What's it cost to make a pair of Nike shoes? 10cents maybe? And then they get sold here for $75.
I can not disagree more with the union rants. Unions are simply a group of people banded together for a common purpose. The USA is a union. Unions are not evil in themselves, but they can be a convenient whipping post. As far as I know not one union person engineered a car, ran a company, or syphoned off profits, for personal use, or gave health care comapnies free rain. They were just the working stiffs who put these ill considered cars together, not the genius behind them. When union membership was at it's highest the economy was going great, the unions decline has been mirrored by the economy. Yes there was period when the quick buck was made a short time ago when we fell asleep, when walmart crept in, when factories shut down and jobs moved overseas, but now those chickens have come to roost. Did prices come down when comapanies moved over seas? Did prices come down when union membership declined? You might feel better by dragging a middle class worker into a lower class, or blaming a union boogeyman, but is this what we want? Will this blame game accomplish anything? Why no rant about the greedy CEO's who raided the company coffers while making millions by running the companies into the ground, or us shareholders who looked the other way because of a high stock market. Plenty of blame to go around, we all have some responsibility in this mess. We are paying for cheap chinese goods at walmart with low paying jobs, very little manufacturing capacity, health care run amuck, cars we can not afford, ect. Low taxes brought us education reductions so that we now have fallen globally, some cities graduate less than half of their high school kids. Luckily we have a young president, who happens to be sharp as a whip, and if we are smart will follow his lead and try to get back the USA we used to know, really we do not have much of an alternative......shredder
Of course there are umpteen other factors....factors that you and I don't even know about. For example, look into the "World Trade Organization" and see what they've been up to since WWII.
I certainly don't claim to know all the angles, but I do think unions have broken this country's back........and I'm not saying people shouldn't earn a good wage. Go where union work is being done, and you might see a pace set by the workers that is styfling production. Give you a quick example: my brother worked for Caterpillar during a strike. The union workers down stream from him on the assembly line were ready to kill him (and were complaining to management) because he was producing too much, making them look bad, and making them have to either work harder, or jamb up the assembly line.
And like I said, it goes way deeper than unions. There are trade agreements that are killing us, cheap foreign labor that we can't dream to compete with, corporate greed(like you mentioned).....I mean, why can't Nike make their shoes in Oregon where they started, and pay $5 to have a pair of shoes made, and still sell them for $75? My guess is, the fat cats at the top, and the share holders wouldn't stand for the "pay cut."
What about the Walmart game? They demand that every company wanting to sell in their stores, have the products made in China. What kind of an American company demands that? And how do you compete with that? There's no way, they're too powerful. It would literally take government intervention.
This a huge and very complex problem, and I don't see it going away, nor do I see our president being able to do anything about it. He's one guy, the system is controlled by corporations and CEO's that are either pulling his puppet strings or would eat him for lunch, and the old guard is simply not going to roll over and force any changes.
Quote from: ShredderI can not disagree more with the union rants. Unions are simply a group of people banded together for a common purpose. The USA is a union. Unions are not evil in themselves, but they can be a convenient whipping post. As far as I know not one union person engineered a car, ran a company, or syphoned off profits, for personal use, or gave health care comapnies free rain. They were just the working stiffs who put these ill considered cars together, not the genius behind them. When union membership was at it's highest the economy was going great, the unions decline has been mirrored by the economy. Yes there was period when the quick buck was made a short time ago when we fell asleep, when walmart crept in, when factories shut down and jobs moved overseas, but now those chickens have come to roost. Did prices come down when comapanies moved over seas? Did prices come down when union membership declined? You might feel better by dragging a middle class worker into a lower class, or blaming a union boogeyman, but is this what we want? Will this blame game accomplish anything? Why no rant about the greedy CEO's who raided the company coffers while making millions by running the companies into the ground, or us shareholders who looked the other way because of a high stock market. Plenty of blame to go around, we all have some responsibility in this mess. We are paying for cheap chinese goods at walmart with low paying jobs, very little manufacturing capacity, health care run amuck, cars we can not afford, ect. Low taxes brought us education reductions so that we now have fallen globally, some cities graduate less than half of their high school kids. Luckily we have a young president, who happens to be sharp as a whip, and if we are smart will follow his lead and try to get back the USA we used to know, really we do not have much of an alternative......shredder
Shredder......sit down and do the math.......
When the economy was going strong, the unions squeezed industry for a bigger piece of the pie. Industry had to comply with union demands or face a strike. Execs still had to answer to stock holders so cuts had to be made in product design and manufacturing procedures. As these cuts in manuf costs were made, the quality of the product declined and sales went with them.
As sales declined, industry tried to negotiate with the unions and the unions refused. Now, each manufacturer is faced with breaking the union or going BK.
As for CEOs with big salaries and corporate jets........that's what it takes to attract the talent needed to run these companies. All salaries and benefits have to be approved by the Board of Directors and share holders. You do what it takes to attract top performers. Does this make a dent in the bottom line of a multi-billion dollar corp like GM or Ford.....hell no. However, getting the wrong person in that position can be disastrous to the bottom line. This is what we call "Capatalism"......If GM went out looking for a CEO and offered $500,000 a year, who do you think would apply for the job???? Yes, there would be thousands of applications but would they be proven, top performers????? Not a chance. Do I like the outrageous compensation that these guys get? Not really but if I am a share holder they better have the best performers that $ can buy or I take my $ and buy part of a company that does perform.
What makes a huge difference in operating costs is $10 an hour more for 20,000 workers. This equates to a cost of half a billion dollars a year.
Now, I don't hear many people talking about the salaries, benefits and private jets for Union leaders...........where do you think all that $ comes from???? The sky???? Nope, it comes from union members that must demand a higher wage so that they can pay their dues. Where does that come from????
Trust me...GM and Ford DO NOT want $ from the government to continue in business. That is NOT a solution to a lack of sales or operating costs of these companies. GM and Ford will go into BK....it is inevitable. At that time, all employees will be fired and sent home and their jobs will be offered at a fair wage......non-union. Any other solution or government medaling will merely prolong the agony and increase the pain to our children and grandchildren as they pay back the trillions of dollars owed.....in my mind, that's not an acceptable solution.
Here's an example of why unions aren't working. Just got an email from a buddy who works for ATT. He tells me their contract is up in April and they are planning to strike.
IMO, it's that kind of b@ll busting mentality that is killing this country. It blows my mind that in today's economy a group of people would consider striking........What a person rather have, $25-30/hr plus benefits, retirement, all the overtime they can stand, and a career? Or nothing, and join the ranks of a couple million people who are out of work right now?
My buddy should feel lucky to have a job, let alone be on the gravy train at the phone company. Instead, he's cavalier and thinks ATT owes him something, and the union will go knocking heads around for him. What a joke.
Check out what this guy wrote.
As a supplier for the Big 3 this man received a letter from the President of GM North America requesting support for the bail out program.
First, this is the letter he got from GM to which his subsequent response is directed:
Dear Employees and Suppliers,
Congress and the current Administration will soon determine whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation's history. Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial crisis.
As an employee or supplier, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate voices.. I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard. Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.
Troy Clarke - President
General Motors North America
Response from:
Gregory Knox, Pres.
Knox Machinery Company Franklin , Ohio
Gentlemen:
In response to your request to contact legislators and ask for a bailout for the Big Three automakers please consider the following, and please pass my thoughts on to Troy Clark, President of General Motors North America.
Politicians and Management of the Big 3 are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has spread like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping this nation, awaiting our new "messiah", Pres-elect Obama, to wave his magic wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep "living the dream". Believe me folks, The dream is over!
This dream where we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price for these atrocities. This dream where you still think the masses will line up to buy our products for ever and ever.
Don't even think about telling me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi, Kelsey Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM's throughout the Midwest during the past 30 years and what I've seen over those years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting.
Troy Clarke, President of General Motors North America, states: "There is widespread sentiment throughout this country, and our government, and especially via the news media, that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management which it certainly is not."
You're right Mr. Clarke, it's not JUST management.
How about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag ass so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour work week?
How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics for putting out too many parts on a shift and for being too productive?
(We certainly must not expose those lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?)
Do you folks really not know about this stuff?!? How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea: "over the last few years, we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors." What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!? Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them?
The K-car vs. the Accord?
The Pinto vs. the Civic?!?
Do I need to go on? What a joke!
We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto industry for decades. It's time to pay for your sins, Detroit .
I attended an economic summit last week where brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu, from the Institute of Trend Research , surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of "bailout money".
"Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems," but despite what people like politicians and corporate magnates would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day. and the following very important thing would happen.. . where there had been greedy and sloppy banks, new efficient ones would pop up. That is how a free market system works. It does work if we would only let it work."
But for some nondescript reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn't work - that we need the government to step in and "save us".
Save us my ass, Hell - we're nationalizing, and unfortunately too many of our once fine nation's citizens don't even have a clue that this is what is really happening. But, they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams. Yeah - THAT'S really important, isn't it.
Does it ever occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades in this country? How can that be??? Let's see.. Fuel efficient. Listening to customers. Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul.
Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr. W. Edwards Deming four decades ago when he taught that by adopting appropriate principles of management, organizations could increase quality and simultaneously reduce costs. Ever increased productivity through quality and intelligent planning. Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy". Efficient front and back offices. Non union environment.
Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't already know down deep in their hearts.
I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into - my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did when I was their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way) - I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their actions and work through it. Radical concept, huh?
Am I there for them in the wings? Of course - but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults.
I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government. Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins. Bad news, people - it's coming whether we like it or not. The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away."
I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the final vote count was tallied. "we really might not do it in a year or in four." Where the Hell was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for office?
Stop trying to put off the inevitable folks . That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000. People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits. That job driving that forklift for the Big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year. We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe.
That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home. Let the market correct itself folks - it will.
Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna' be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it all, is a nation that appreciates what it has, doesn't live beyond its means, gets back to basics and redevelops the patriotic work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world. A return to Christian principles, common sense and decency would also be beneficial!
Sorry - don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with you the "bad news". I hope you take it to heart.
Gregory J. Knox, President
Knox Machinery, Inc.. Franklin , Ohio 45005
I know there are hard working union folks out there. Unfortunately their lawyers and managers have taken things to the ridiculous level and it is time to reset.
I realized how out of control it was while sitting in McCormack place in Chicago, trying to setup some electronic equipment for a trade show. I was told I could not even plug in my equipment (not even a lousy PC). Only a union electrician could perform this dangerous task :eyecrazy:
After waiting for 45 minutes for a qualified electrician to show up, I plugged in my own equipment (about the same as plugging in your XBox). I was promptly scolded by the 'powers that be' and had a greivance filed against me. :yikes:
Since I was hit over the head with this ridiculous incident, I have a hard time finding any sympathy for unions. I know this is just 1 incident, but I've heard of many more and the car companies and their leaders seem to happily represent this behavior.
I have friends who are union workers and go to work every day, work hard, and come home at night to take care of their families and start all over the next day. I would not hesitate to work with or hire this type of person. This type of persone no longer needs the unions. This type of person could get a job anywhere. At this point, IMO, the unions are only needed to protect the ridiculous worker (read: the problem worker), and their leaders. NO THANKS!
Finally, I understand that their are a lot more problems that need to be solved, but the unions are at the top of my list, along with a few others. I agree with WAvery...the quicker the american car companies die, the quicker they can get reorganized and get back to work...hard work! :usflag:
Wayne in Oregon
Waverly,
I'm with you.....UNIONS have got to go.....they are killing this country!
When it comes time for me to purchase a new auto it won't be from the Big 3. I'll go with a Toyota or Honda made in American by American workers who are not over paid and do make a quality auto!
Thanks for sharing that letter Cajun. Excellent read and I couldn't agree more with every line.
It's funny, I'm a car guy, have been since I was a kid. 45 years old now, and I can never remember a time when, other than full sized trucks, America wasn't completely behind curve of what real car building was all about.
I've watched VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Datsun(Nissan), Honda, Mazda, Kia, Hyundi and even Daywoo(sp?) start here, from infancy, selling little cracker boxes or cars that were so basic, they were nothing more than transportation that got you out of the weather. In 40 years (or less), those companies grown into automotive world powers, and even the cr@ppiest Kia is better than a mid-priced American product. Even the Toyotas, Hondas, and for 4 years VW, that were made in factories here in America, were/are 100 times better than anything being built by the big 3.
Unbelievable that GM/Chrysler/Ford have never once, in 40 years, figured it out. Even Datsun, in its infancy, would buy a competitors car, ship it to Japan, take it apart and replicate it, improving on the design, and making the design their own. The 510's and 810's are a great example of copying a BMW 2002. The 240z (and the 810's) used a carbon copy of Mercedes venerable 2.5L straight six. An yet in 40 years the big 3 haven't figured out why a Camry or Accord is the best selling car for their size, or how to build an indestructible econo-box that gets 35-40mpg.
Yet, there they sit, hand held out, asking for a pay off. Cars and trucks being built in villages in Mexico, by Mexicans, but the companies want a check from the government....and then get it. I would have told them, "The check is right here on my desk. Give me a call when you've opened up all your factories here, and put everyone back to work.....and I'll stick it in the mail."
I've got the same sentiment for the banks, who are now worse than ever, having received their pay off. I was in a Washington Mutual the other day, trying to cash one of their checks. The wanted $5 because the check was written out of an account in one of their branches 25mi away. Fantastic customer service.
Something I heard last week on the subject of workers looking for jobs. To stay in line with the original post of what is the economy doing for us, I heard that some landscaping companies that were always hiring immigrants to do jobs that local people were not going to do for minimum wage or to lazy to do are hiring locals instead of immigrants. The people who are out of work and out of unemployment and/or life savings are taking these low paying jobs. Time will tell as for the quality of the job as some other people have suggested with the auto industry. The downside of this is the people who would normally be taking that job are now forced to return to their own country and try to find work there. So to give the best answer to the question of what our economy is going to do for us is it is going to correct the wrongs of the past 20 years and bring everybody back to earth and it is going to be a burden on everyone for at least another 10 years. That is just my thoughts, NO MORE FREE LUNCHES, everything will come down in price (a RECESSION) and wages will come down to match as businesses cut jobs or wages and force workers to work for less or be unemployed.
Quote from: waveryShredder......sit down and do the math.......
When the economy was going strong, the unions squeezed industry for a bigger piece ofQUOTE]
OK, if your theory is right, union membership is the lowest it's been in years, union wages have fallen dramatically, we should be booming, right? No, you can't keep knocking down the middle class and expect everything to be peachy keen. The last eight years have been as good of an example as you can get. It's just like a drunken episode , in the short term things are great, then comes the hang over. Rob the poor to give to the rich (trickle down) has proven to be a colossal failure. Relaxing regulations on corporations has got us into unimaginable problems. CEO's giant salaries have no basis in reality, they have not given us value in any known measure. Some of the highest paid have been in the financial industry, the financial industry shows keenly what can happen, how corporate greed can hurt us all. Low taxes have given us masses of uneducated kids that can not compete. I know it's in fashion to blame someone for all your problems. But these problems are all of our own fault, we let them happen. We voted with apathy, we grinned at our 401 k statements without any regard to corporate greed or fairness. Blaming some boogieman (union people, blacks, browns, yellows, pinks, greens, ect) is not the answer. We all have to take responsibility for what happened, pull up our bootstraps, get to work and not let it happen again. One way to start would be to put pressure on the pols to eliminate lobbying. Cutting them off at the corporate trough would be a good start BTW.... I do not belong to any union and am a independent voter....shredder
I'm certainly not blaming the American worker, and I don't think wavery is either. I'm blaming the process.......the fish rots from the head down. I'm certainly not saying Union Labor is the entire fault. I'm saying, as have others, that it's a big driving force in the type, speed, quality of work that gets done. A previous poster mentioned the word "entitlement." This is exactly what I'm taking about. If I'm putting lugnuts on a wheel for 8hrs a day and getting paid $30/hr to do it, on a high school education(at best) there's an ingrained entitlement issue. Then me and my buddies don't want to work to hard, because then non-union management will always expect that much work and we're screwed...so we decide to work at a nice slow pace.
This is what I'm talking about........that how can a company "afford" to remain viable in the US, when unions are creating a workforce that works like we've previously described.
Likewise, regarding cheap foreign labor that's come into our country (for the last 200+ years). That's what built this country, whether you're talking about black slaves as the base for the economy in the south, chinese as the base for building our railroad infrastructure, or hispanics as a base for agriculture, hotels, restaurants and hospitals. That ship has sailed and you aren't ever going to turn that back. There are not going to be white people (and I'm not making a racist statement) lining up to pick strawberries and lettuce, or wash dishes, or clean hotel rooms and hospital rooms.......and if they did, imagine how much your food would cost once the unions got ahold of it all and wages quadrupled, and production dropped 75%.
Quote from: ShredderQuote from: waveryShredder......sit down and do the math.......
When the economy was going strong, the unions squeezed industry for a bigger piece ofQUOTE]
OK, if your theory is right, union membership is the lowest it's been in years, union wages have fallen dramatically, we should be booming, right? No, you can't keep knocking down the middle class and expect everything to be peachy keen. The last eight years have been as good of an example as you can get. It's just like a drunken episode , in the short term things are great, then comes the hang over. Rob the poor to give to the rich (trickle down) has proven to be a colossal failure. Relaxing regulations on corporations has got us into unimaginable problems. CEO's giant salaries have no basis in reality, they have not given us value in any known measure. Some of the highest paid have been in the financial industry, the financial industry shows keenly what can happen, how corporate greed can hurt us all. Low taxes have given us masses of uneducated kids that can not compete. I know it's in fashion to blame someone for all your problems. But these problems are all of our own fault, we let them happen. We voted with apathy, we grinned at our 401 k statements without any regard to corporate greed or fairness. Blaming some boogieman (union people, blacks, browns, yellows, pinks, greens, ect) is not the answer. We all have to take responsibility for what happened, pull up our bootstraps, get to work and not let it happen again. One way to start would be to put pressure on the pols to eliminate lobbying. Cutting them off at the corporate trough would be a good start BTW.... I do not belong to any union and am a independent voter....shredder
Shredder,
You are absolutely right. This is all about taking personal responsibility and also taking action.
The damage that the unions have done to US industry has been going on over a 40 year period. When people stop buying and industry is losing $, there is nothing for management to use for re-designing and re-tooling our factories and certainly nothing to keep and attract share holders.
In order to develop and produce a product and run a profitable company (from the smallest to the biggest) there must be profit (thus Capitalism as apposed to Communism). When the unions (Communist thinkers) see big industry making a profit (especially the UAW/Mafia), they swoop in to take "Their fair share". This paralyzes industry (Capatilism failing). Instead of taking profits and using a percentage for R&D, product improvement and re-designing, that % is taken by the unions. When times get tough, like today, it is impossible to initiate improvements (that thought is simply naive).
There was a time in this countries history (sadly) that workers needed to form unions to protect themselves from abusive employers. In this day & age, workers are protected by laws. If an employer is abusive, he gets sued (union or no union).
IMO the roll reversed in the late 50's early 60's where the employer no longer abused the worker. With the power of the unions and threats of strikes crippling production, the Unions/workers now abuse the employers and we end up with the inmates running the asylums.
I don't care what kind of business that one is in, big or small, the goal is to maximize profit and growth through capturing market share. It really isn't a lot more complicated than that (That's why I say....."Do the math"). If consumers are not buying your product, you have to make changes to your business or loose market share. If that means building a better mouse trap to compete with other mouse trap builders, you must have resources to do so. If all of those resources are sucked up by greedy, lazy workers that find more benefit in working slow and fighting change than working efficiently as possible, the system fails. It's just that simple.
Union rhetoric tries to blame management for the quality of production but that is just plain STUPID logic. Management is not union and must perform in order to keep their jobs. Management makes all of the suggestions for improving production that they can but it all hinges on the legal and financial constraints of the company. Someone, at the top, must make the decision whether production changes will turn into bigger market share or simply a loss of profit. These people are not stupid. They know that US products cannot compete with foreign. Do we think (in our arrogant armchair) that they can't see that???? How arrogant is that????
Manufacturers respond to consumer demands. That is what ends up in their fair share of market demand. If the consumer is demanding SUV's but Ford (or the government......now there's a genius plan) says, "Nope, it's more profitable to build light, more fuel efficient vehicles", guess what........consumers will still buy SUV's because someone else will build them. That's called "Loss of market share.......or more simply put "Death nail".
Quality is an entirely different issue. If anyone thinks that our auto manufacturers are not capable of producing the highest quality product in the world they must have their head up their a$$. It's all about how much it costs to build and how much the consumer is willing to pay. That does not equate to material costs either. It equates to high intensity labor costs. Our labor costs are so far higher than the rest of the world that increasing the labor on each vehicle exponentially increase the price of the vehicle.........or any other union product.
Union leaders exist not to help labor negotiate with management. That's BS clear and simple. The labor market can do that. Without that balance, a "Free market society" cannot exist. This country is falling apart because we are seeing the results of a failed, "Free market". Free market can work well but it must not be controlled.......once it's controlled, it is no longer "Free".
DO THE MATH!!!!
Quote from: austinado16Buying things isn't going to help this economy. That's why we're in the state we're in right now.......we've become a consumer economy, instead of a manufacturing economy.
Buying a monster TV that was made in a village in Mexico or an industrial ghetto in China or Taiwan, doesn't help our economy....other than some 19yr old at Best Buy continues to be employed at minimum wage.
The economy "should" be helping us by providing jobs and careers. The government "should" be helping the economy by making sure that jobs stay here in America.......you want to sell something in the USA, then you better build it here. We intern would be helping the economy by working and producing products to a standard that is so good, the products want to be purchased.
Use the model from the Great Depression in the '30s. The government tried to put people to work, building this country. Of course WWII helped that effort out tremendously, and then after the war people went to work, started companies, bought homes and cars, and other goods. It was made here, and bought here, and people weren't running up umpteen thousand dollars in CC debt, so they could live better than their wage allowed.
That's my 2 cents worth.
You and DH have the same state of mind. He too thinks that we've been putting too much emphasis on retail and not enough in other areas. It has been if there was an empty partial of land, they would build a retail mall. He also says that NOTHING is made in America anymore and the quality of the imported products aren't any good.
You and my DH would have a great conversation if you were together.
Quote from: motoboss2002Hi,
Interesting indeed. Here is my take - as the instigator of the 'previous thread jumpstarting the economy by spending some money'
Yes we are all guilty of participating in the consumer society- some more than others I might add. In my opinion it's an easy decision: if you can afford it, it's OK to buy it; if you cannot, wait a bit and save more or at least use credit wisely. That my friends is what the economy has done for us. Extend credit and then some.
Unfortunately for some folks, enough is/was never enough. Throw in a few unscrupolous mortgage brokers, credit card approvers, and other commissioned sweet talkers and bingo, the stage is set for collapse.
Envy and greed will always, yes always, lead to a downfall.
Here is my final thought. Consensus seems to be to produce and buy American. Let me tell you it's hard to do. But you could start by calling/emailing your bank, ISP, insurance company, help desk, ... and letting them know you don't appreciate someone answering the phone in a call center in Bangalore India. You could ask your grocery store to stock up on local produce. You could give your business to local mom and pop stores rather than big chains. You want jobs, services, manufactoring to come back to the USA, ask for it and demand it and vote with your spending power. Trust me, the goverment isn't gonna do it for you and neither is corporate America.
Once cent at a time does it. So please do spend a little money if you can and try to spend it into our own (local) economy.
All the best to you guys!
-Christian.
It's funny that you brought up calling India. I called my credit card company asking them why they raised my % rate by 8% and where did that call go? I talked to 2 people in India. I couldn't believe that so I took out my kids globe and showed them where mommy's call went. DH told me that it's cheaper to go overseas. The kids thought it was cool that I was talking to someone on the other side of the world, I personally thought it was rediculious.
I'm going to suggest there may be a different root cause.
While there are lots of technical reasons - bad management, greedy people (at all levels), lack of accountability, misplaced power, and more, I think there is one thing that is completely missed.
It starts with a simple premise: All wealth comes from God. I'm not talking about personal wealth or a business's wealth (though God may sometimes be in that), but the wealth of a nation. The ability for businesses and individuals to thrive in a thriving economy comes from God. Both how and why He gives wealth to nations and peoples are beyond us - they serve his purposes, not ours - but He does give some clues.
Now most people who start these kinds of statements then take aim at laws they don't like, immoral businesses, or the "divorce" between God and schools/ government/ courts/etc. or they point to some group they want to blame. It could be a certain religious group, or an ethnic group, or a social class - anything that can be a scapegoat. Or they pick on a pet issue - abortion, or taking "under God" out of the the pledge of allegiance, or any of a myriad of other things.
That stuff is all nonsense. I won't say God does not care about those things, but they are things that He can easily change. All authority in heaven and on earth comes from Him. He can and does replace governments and overthrow leaders. But he does that for His purposes, not ours.
No, focusing on those things is actually part of the problem. By blaming abortion (pro or con), the proliferation of pornography, breakdown of marriage, government corruption, illegal immigrants, some political action committee, unions, bad management, foreign competition, etc. for our problems, and expecting some church or government to do something (or stop doing something) about it, or even wringing our hands and concluding that nothing can be done, we divorce ourselves from the real issue, and from any personal responsibility.
The real issue is individuals. At all levels of society and all classes and all ethinc groups and all regions of the country, we have forgotten, or worse, ignored God. And I have come to the conclusion that the worst offenders are those who think they are not offending at all.
I am an active lay leader in my church. Some of us are going through the process of identifying future leaders. While we have no shortage of leaders, one of the conclusions we have come to is that about 80% of the people who attend our church do nothing but attend (and usually put money in the plate - but that's not the issue here). They don't volunteer for anything, they decline when asked, and they don't let church affect their private lives. For the most part, they don't support or volunteer for other organizations, either. They think they are believers, but their "belief" makes no difference in their lives. They would never seek out someone who has fallen away (they won't be involved enough to know who those people are anyway), and they would never reach out to someone who does not know God. To them, that's the church's job. I've been around enough and read enough to know we are far from unique; on the contrary, we are typical.
Even among those who do get involved, they often insulate their hearts from what they are doing, so that they don't have to be convicted of their own shortcomings. They fail to realize (or refuse to accept) that God is the source of the conviction...thereby ignoring God.
I could go on and on, talking about our moral collapse as a people, but most of that stuff is already obvious to all of us.
What's the solution? It isn't new laws, new government, an attack on immoral behavior, or the end of the ACLU.
It comes down to one thing. Do the things I claim to believe make a difference in my life, and do I let them influence the way I think about and act towards those around me - those God Himself put there? Do I let God use me how He chooses, or do I dictate my intentions and expectations to Him?
Over 20 years ago, I was part of a move to get rid of an adult bookstore that had just opened in town. There was a lot of fury over it. There were rallies, marches, meetings, and lawyers. Pastors counciled together. Businessmen had meetings. There were prayer breakfasts, sign-waving picketers, angry letters, newspaper editorials. It was an election year, and all of the gubernatorial candidates came to the big rally to tell us what we wanted to hear.
I particularly remember one rally held near the end. It was held on the lawn of a church that had been there for over 200 years. That rally was within sight of the offending establishment. There were many hundreds in attendance, perhaps as many as a thousand (far from our best-attended rally, BTW. These were the "faithful"). Every member of the town's clergy was there. There were pastors, priests, and rabbis. Many of them spoke or prayed. I was excited.
As it ended, the crowd of spectators moved into the street. Gradually, the people in this group changed from an indignant congregation of sorts into an angry mob. These people who were just listening to priests and prayers started shouting obsenities. I saw something I will never forget. Those who were opposed to the obsenity inside the establishment became a source of it outside.
Within days, a businessman in town bought out the bookstore's lease. He was gone. More meetings were held to celebrate what "God" had done, and to plan a strategy to take on the strip club in town.
But I had already come to the conclusion that God didn't do it. God does not reward people for their sin, but that is what happened. They guy was paid off to go somewhere else. Meanwhile, the people who were most strongly opposed to it, including me, had revealed their hypocracy.
At a meeting about the strip club, I started to point out those inconsistencies. I ended up making a statement - "You will not be rid of Alex's until you reach the people behind it." A powerful church leader silenced me with a statement that amazes me to this day - "Those people can't be reached." There is something God can't do, eh? I have long since moved on, first to another church, then to another part of the country. It's been more than 20 years, and Alex's is still there.
While I won't go so far as to say that God put the bookstore in town, but he did have his purposes in it being there. It wasn't to rally the people of the town, and it wasn't so that we could force him out. All the guy did was to move to another town down the road - another town where God loved the people. No sin was eliminated.
No, God's purpose was to point out to us that there were people we needed to reach. But that stuff is difficult, it is messy, and it requires personal involvement. It is much easier to be part of an angry mob marching in the name of God. In the name of God, we told God to go to hell, and we believed we were doing the right thing.
One at a time, we each need to examine our beliefs, and compare them to who we are. Rather than choosing and adjusting our beliefs to match what we think we want or need, we need to seek out what God (not some televangelist, or some emotional email, or even some internet post like this one) says about ourselves, then do - not what is comfortable or what is convenient - but do what God wants us to do. Even if it costs us everything. Because one - even one - new believer or brother restored is worth it to Him.
Do you know the parable in the New Testament about the one lost sheep? There were 99 that were not lost. But the Good Shepherd leaves behind - abandons - the 99 to go after that ONE lost sheep. Individuals mean that much to him.
Each of us, as individuals, needs to do what God wants us to do in ourselves, and for our neighbor, and to remain there. Blaming unions or bad management or failed banks or government bailouts doesn't help, and only accomplishes one thing - it helps us ignore God.
Austin
Quote from: waveryShredder,
You are absolutely right. This is all about taking personal responsibility and also taking action.
QUOTE]
Perhaps you missed the part about not blaming "them". When I do the math all the examples of union greed, graft, laziness do not compare to the examples of corporate greed I can site, yet few get worked up about that. Look at the non-union execs at Enron trading energy futures to drive up the paper profits and in the end drive the company (shareholders and employees) into the ground those non union execs that dreamed up derivative trading, or encouraged people to spend out of their league for a house (do you remember the phrase "ownership society"? ) Yes, the people who signed for these things are responsible as well. Or the non-union genius who thought up bundling these bad loans and peddling them off for a profit, we win, realtors win, it's all good, right?. These things were allowed to happen because we, you and I fell asleep at the switch. We allowed our elected officials to be bought off by corporations. Corporations found it much better to buy a senator then to make a decent product, surely that is not a union fault. Don't like a regulation, buy a senator to fix it. We shareholders also failed by letting the companies pay themselves outrageous amounts of moola , and these bonuses we all are talking about now did not happen in a vacume, we allowed it.
And on a more personal level to AustinBoston, we can't really control what other people think or do. We can however control what we do. In the end it's just us and God, or just you and your beliefs whatever they may be.....shredder
Dont put the blame on all the unions!!!!! I grew up in a union house hold and i don't belong to a union. Yes the automotive unions did not do the car companys right but alot of the crap we are in started in 1981 when the "great" Pres Regan took oversite and regulation out of the stock market!!!!!!! Allowing these companys to do what they wanted is little to no oversite by the SCC!!! Until companies play buy the rules we be back into this same place!!!!!! Obama was given a terrible mess and he is trying to sort it all out and get things back in order!!! I know government cant solve every problem but they can give a hand out to help stop the slide. We are a very productive country but to many people in this country are to dam lazy to work. I work butt off to provide for my family. Many hours i am working i rather be with my family and seeing my granddaughter growing up. I trying to make the world better for her the best it can be!!! The only thing constant in this world is change and if you cant keep up with change the i feel sorry for you!!! I am sick of people kicking Obama in the ass. It is hard to make chicken soup out of chicken shit! My little rant.
Some really interesting comments here, thanks all. I suppose my take on the direction this is going is that companies and unions both can represent the good and the bad in the overall picture of things. Neither are perfect. Both are needed and necessary to make business run in this country at this point in time. Getting rid of unions would accomplish about as much as getting rid of companies. Another time, another era, things might be different. Remember, unions were developed initially to counter employer abuses, which were significant at the time. Unfortunately and sadly, power corrupts. Either can become overzealous and/or self serving and abuse their position. That doesn't say much yet for the economy helping me. I suppose consistent pay raises might count in that column. It would be nice if the pay raises might be greater than the increase in the cost of living. That might actually be occurring. Falling gas prices were a welcome relief. It's not often we see costs going down that quickly and to that degree. Thinking along those lines...one might say the world is on sale right now. Prices do seem to be dropping in some areas. Now might be the time to buy a big ticket item, for example. Those who are employed might be doing better right now. It doesn't seem to be quite so kind to those who are unemployed. I've been guaranteed my job for the next year at least. Life goes on.