Sorry I know this has been discussed extensively but I am getting ready to buy a new tow vehicle and I do not want to buy something too small and I do not want to over purchase as my pockets have many holes these days.
Coleman 2002 Utah - GVWR 3,450 - Gross axel weight 3,050 - Tounge Rating 400 - Unloaded vehical weight 2,485 - unloaded axle weight 2,370 - unloaded tongue weight 115
I currently own a 2003 Toyota Tundra I think it is a little under powered for the trailer completely loaded
The smaller Tundra V6 has a max tow rating of 4,800 - GVWR 6,400 - Payload of 1,470
I am guessing that my trailer fully loaded A/C unit and with 4 bikes mounted to the roof is about 4,000 lbs and I am being generous. In the bed of the truck I would typically have 300-400 lbs of gear and 4 warm bodies 450 lbs.
Does the smaller Toyota mean that I can tow a trailer up to 4,800lbs and have another 1,400 lbs of cargo. I am trying to decide if I need to get the V8 in order to be set up properly.
I would also like to ask that you suggest my minimum tow requirements that I should be looking for thanks for all suggestions.
Tow rating means very little. Almost all manufacturers rate the maximum tow capacity with the vehicle empty (although few people tow without at least a driver). There are many ratings that must be considered when towing, the tow rating is the LAST thing to be considered. The fact is, that's the only thing that most people consider and they just don't understand what they are doing.
The most important rating to consider for towing is the GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating). This is the maximum weight that a vehicle can safely tow (actually stop) including the combination of TV, trailer, passengers, cargo and fuel.
You have a few of the numbers that are critical. Your laden trailer weight of 4000#, your passenger & cargo are about 850# plus about 100# of fuel, make it and even 1000#. That makes your total added (combined) burden around 5000#.
You need a vehicle with a GCWR minus TV curb weight that has room for an additional 5000# without exceeding the max tow rating (which should exceed 4000#).
My guess is, the Tundra V6 may do quite nicely......the key is the GCWR.
Why would you load a trailer rated to 3450 lb to 4000 lbs, it's limit is 3450???
You tow vehicle with the 4800 lb rating is enough to tow the trailer and family. With people and cargo, it will near it's max ratings. WDH should be considered. Overloading the trailer is what I would advise against!
Adding the tow package to the V6 - tacoma
http://www.toyota.com/tacoma/specs.html
The GCVWR = 11,100 wow!
11100 less curb of 3835 = 7265, more than enough for the 6500 lb max tow rating!
Quote from: coachWhy would you load a trailer rated to 3450 lb to 4000 lbs, it's limit is 3450???
You tow vehicle with the 4800 lb rating is enough to tow the trailer and family. With people and cargo, it will near it's max ratings. WDH should be considered. Overloading the trailer is what I would advise against!
Adding the tow package to the V6 - tacoma
http://www.toyota.com/tacoma/specs.html
The GCVWR = 11,100 wow!
11100 less curb of 3835 = 7265, more than enough for the 6500 lb max tow rating!
Good catch.......I missed that. I just noticed this, "Gross axle weight 3,050". It always puzzles me why the gross trailer weight rating is usually higher than the axle rating. I guess they are figuring that at least 10-15% of the weight will be on the tongue....
Overloading the trailer is begging for a blow-out of the tires. Good idea to check the weight rating on the tires too.
Quote from: waveryI just noticed this, "Gross axle weight 3,050". It always puzzles me why the gross trailer weight rating is usually higher than the axle rating. I guess they are figuring that at least 10-15% of the weight will be on the tongue....
In addition, they know a significant number of owners will use a WDH, which pushes tongue weight back onto the axle. :(
The best we can do is to emphasize that every rating is the
absolute maximum under
ideal circumstances.
Most SUV tow ratings should be divided by 1.3 for towing in the mountains, where you need more horsepower and especially more brakes.
ronerjones: Your Utah probably has electric brakes. No SUV will be rated to tow it unless the trailer brakes are properly functioning.
Austin
Quote from: AustinBoston...Most SUV tow ratings should be divided by 1.3 for towing in the mountains, where you need more horsepower and especially more brakes...Austin
[class]
This is a neat little saying, "Torque wins races, horsepower sells cars."
Just ask folks at Audi who continue to win at the 24hr Le Mans year after year with their diesel powered race cars.
Torque is what makes power
[/class]
Quote from: austinado16[class]
This is a neat little saying, "Torque wins races, horsepower sells cars."
Just ask folks at Audi who continue to win at the 24hr Le Mans year after year with their diesel powered race cars.
Torque is what makes power
[/class]
If you are trying to win a race while towing, you are making a big mistake, and I don't think it's wise to draw towing wisdom from racing wisdom.
I realize there is a lot of smoke-and-mirrors in the horsepower rating game, and it is true the
torque moves trailers. But the only thing needed to change horsepower into torque is gears. That's the idea with higher ratio differentials; same horsepower, same engine, same transmission, more torque, less fuel mileage.
But the real point of my horsepower statement has to do with the fact that normally aspirated internal combustion engines loose between 2% and 4% of their power for each 1,000 feet of elevation. So at the top of an 8,000 foot pass, an engine without a turbocharger is down between 16% and 32% of it's sea-level horespower. That loss is across the RPM spectrum, so it ends up translating to torque as well.
The part about brakes should be obvious. :yikes:
Austin
Quote from: AustinBostonIf you are trying to win a race while towing, you are making a big mistake, and I don't think it's wise to draw towing wisdom from racing wisdom.
I realize there is a lot of smoke-and-mirrors in the horsepower rating game, and it is true the torque moves trailers. But the only thing needed to change horsepower into torque is gears. That's the idea with higher ratio differentials; same horsepower, same engine, same transmission, more torque, less fuel mileage.
But the real point of my horsepower statement has to do with the fact that normally aspirated internal combustion engines loose between 2% and 4% of their power for each 1,000 feet of elevation. So at the top of an 8,000 foot pass, an engine without a turbocharger is down between 16% and 32% of it's sea-level horespower. That loss is across the RPM spectrum, so it ends up translating to torque as well.
The part about brakes should be obvious. :yikes:
Austin
Racing while towing? What are you talking about? My comment was merely that it's torque that is power, not horsepower. Can you change gear ratios for maximum torque from any engine? Sure......but that doesn't mean you'd want to tow with it.
It depends on whether you are talking about torque at the flywheel or torque on the ground. If you're talking about torque to the ground, gearing will matter but it will also mess with the optimum RPM/torque range of the engine.
Higher torque engines have a larger bore and shorter stroke with a little tweaking of the lift & duration on the camshaft.
The ideal towing engine is high torque at about 2500-2800RPM (a little lower for diesel). That's why I chose the 4.3L Chevy V6 that I did. It's only 190HP but it has 250# of torque at 2800RPM. Mix that with a 3.42 gear ratio and it will pull just as strong as a lot of V8s (plus it's light) without the sacrifice of gas mileage when not towing.
When you are pulling a hill, it's the torque at mid-range RPM that will keep you from having to downshift to achieve more power to the rubber.
Quote from: austinado16Racing while towing? What are you talking about?
Hint:
Quote from: austinado16[class]
This is a neat little saying, "Torque wins races, horsepower sells cars."
Just ask folks at Audi who continue to win at the 24hr Le Mans year after year with their diesel powered race cars.
Torque is what makes power
[/class]
You are the one who mixed the two, not me.
QuoteMy comment was merely that it's torque that is power, not horsepower. Can you change gear ratios for maximum torque from any engine? Sure......but that doesn't mean you'd want to tow with it.
Can you find the blatant contradiction in that statement?
The fact is, to get the torque needed to tow, you must have - absolutely must have - horsepower. How that horsepower is created and utilized is another matter entirely.
More to my point: If you've lost 32% of your horsepower at altitude, you have lost 32% of your potential torque as well. End of story.
Austin
Quote from: waveryIt depends on whether you are talking about torque at the flywheel or torque on the ground. If you're talking about torque to the ground, gearing will matter but it will also mess with the optimum RPM/torque range of the engine.
Higher torque engines have a larger bore and shorter stroke with a little tweaking of the lift & duration on the camshaft.
The ideal towing engine is high torque at about 2500-2800RPM (a little lower for diesel). That's why I chose the 4.3L Chevy V6 that I did. It's only 190HP but it has 250# of torque at 2800RPM. Mix that with a 3.42 gear ratio and it will pull just as strong as a lot of V8s (plus it's light) without the sacrifice of gas mileage when not towing.
When you are pulling a hill, it's the torque at mid-range RPM that will keep you from having to downshift to achieve more power to the rubber.
I'm very fond of GM's 4.3 V-6, I think it's one of the very best engines GM ever produced. And I pondered rather continueing on with the 4.3 when I bought my present GMC Sierra. At the time (2002) I had plans for motoring west with the PU; and Mr.GoodWrench's admonishment for high-altitude performance is that for every 1,000 feet above sea level the engine loses about 4% of it's performance. So driving by Denver's Mile High stadium would mean a loss of 20% of the engine's performance. Already know of some mountain passes that exceed 10,000 feet so I decided to go with the 4.8 V-8.
Now having driven trucks with both engines (4.3 V-6 and the 4.8 V-8), with the same rear end gear ratios (3.42) and pulled the same popup camper with about the same loads over the same roads, really have had a chance to compare
both engines. First off, with out towing anything, the V-6 would give better gas mileage by at least 2 mpg ... 3 mpg in town driving. But here's the interesting part, towing the V-8 delivers 2 mpg better than the V-6 ... just the opposite! Now since most of my driving is not towing (like maybe 95%!) and never made that trip west because of sky rocketing gas prices, I wish I would have stayed with the V-6.
Another interesting comparision of these two engines is the high torque, low rpm of the V-6 (260 lb-ft @2800 rpm) and the V-8 (285 lb-ft @4000 rpm). The net H.P. for the V-6 = 200 @4600, and the V-8 = 270 @5200. On a couple different campsites I frequent here in western NC, where you have to climb a steep mountain, winding grade, to get to them, the V-6 would just hunker down and deliver the needed power without a big fuss, whereas you can hear the additional roar of the V-8 to get the needed rpm's for that power. One other point, and this is Fly's definition of torque vs h.p. (and don't any of you wizz kids try and confuse me with facts!) ... torque gets the thing in motion, up to speed as it were, and horse power maintains the speed. Explains why the V-8 gets better gas mileage towing ... it's kinda lopping along the byway whereas the V-6 is having to work harder at it under load.
Fly
Quote from: flyfishermanAnother interesting comparision of these two engines is the high torque, low rpm of the V-6 (260 lb-ft @2800 rpm) and the V-8 (285 lb-ft @4000 rpm). The net H.P. for the V-6 = 200 @4600, and the V-8 = 270 @5200. On a couple different campsites I frequent here in western NC, where you have to climb a steep mountain, winding grade, to get to them, the V-6 would just hunker down and deliver the needed power without a big fuss, whereas you can hear the additional roar of the V-8 to get the needed rpm's for that power. One other point, and this is Fly's definition of torque vs h.p. (and don't any of you wizz kids try and confuse me with facts!) ... torque gets the thing in motion, up to speed as it were, and horse power maintains the speed. Explains why the V-8 gets better gas mileage towing ... it's kinda lopping along the byway whereas the V-6 is having to work harder at it under load.
Fly
And there's the cold hard facts about torque vs. HP right there. Torque is what makes power, HP is just bragging rights......and low end torque (torque maximums produced at lower rpm ranges, is the kind of torque that produces the power you want for normal use, because it's there where and when you need it.
My '90 Suburban with throttle body injection, 9.3:1 compression, 5.7L (350ci)V-8 is 210hp @ 4,200rpm and 300lb-ft of torque @ 2,400rpm. It gets about 14-15mpg towing and 17-18 not towing, if I keep the speed down.
Quote from: austinado16Torque is what makes power
I know you don't answer direct questions, but I'm going to ask one anyway. You keep saying this and saying this. Do you have some kind of scientifc document that makes this claim?
Austin
Quote from: AustinBostonI know you don't answer direct questions, but I'm going to ask one anyway. You keep saying this and saying this. Do you have some kind of scientifc document that makes this claim?
Austin
Holy cow Austin.............give it a rest....... :eyecrazy:
Torque and HP are simply 2 different ways of measuring an engines performance qualities. Either can be tweaked by various methods of tweaking fuel/air ratio, stroke, bore etc. Often when one is enhanced it is at the expense of the other.
When it comes to towing, people should be able share their experiences without causing arguments or providing, "Scientific proof' of the way that they word their post.......... :rolleyes: ........good grief.......
lol......love how some people have nothing better to do than poke other's in the eyeball from behind the safety of a keyboard. And this from the guy spouting about god and religion. Go figure.
Here's a little test you can perform in the privacy of your own home: Try opening a door in your home by pushing on the door with one finger. Do your first attempt with your finger about 1" away from the hinged side of the door. Do your second attempt with your finger all the way over at the door handle side of the door. Since both attempts are being done by the same person, you can say that the same horsepower is being applied. The only thing that you're changing is the "moment arm" also known as torque. The more torque something can apply, the more work it can do for the same horsepower.
Get online and watch the guy who drag races the electric datsun up at the Portland International Raceway and watch how he wins every single race with a huge margin, even against super high horsepower competition. Why does he win? Because an electric motor produces maximum torque at zero rpm. So while everyone else is waiting for their horsepower to spool up all that engine mass, transmission mass, driveline mass, differential mass and wheel/tire mass, he's already at maximum torque and transfering all that power to the road.
ronerjones,
You're a trouble maker...... :J
But your idea for a TV is fine..... :p
Quote from: waveryronerjones,
You're a trouble maker...... :J
But your idea for a TV is fine..... :p
From
www.new-cars.com:'03 Tundra with 3.4L V-6
9.6:1 Compression ok'd for 87octane fuel
190hp @ 4,800rpm
220lb-ft torque @3,600rpm
Might help you compare with Fly's specs and what he tows.
Quote from: austinado16From www.new-cars.com:
'03 Tundra with 3.4L V-6
9.6:1 Compression ok'd for 87octane fuel
190hp @ 4,800rpm
220lb-ft torque @3,600rpm
Might help you compare with Fly's specs and what he tows.
HMMMMMMMMM!!!! It would be interesting to see a torque curve chart on that engine. My guess would be that at 2500RPM (where you need it most while towing) the torque may be down around 170-190#.
The newer Tundra has a different engine:
Engine type V-6
Engine displacement 241
cu.in.
Engine horsepower 236-hp @ 5,200 rpm
Engine torque 266 lbs.-ft. @ 4,000 rpm
It's max torque is still at an awfully high RPM but I would bet that it has plenty of torque at 2500-2800RPM to do the job.
Dual overhead cam engines seem to develop torque early.
WOW ask a simple question and now I'm a trouble maker. Thanks for all of the commentary I think I have learned something, just not quite sure what. I am down in South Florida so the majority of my driving is just above sea level, I don't think I have to worry much about the altitude decreasing performance. Still have not had much luck deciding on a TV. I'll let you all know what I decide on, Hell maybe I just keep good old trusty till she dies.
Quote from: ronerjonesWOW ask a simple question and now I'm a trouble maker. Thanks for all of the commentary I think I have learned something, just not quite sure what. I am down in South Florida so the majority of my driving is just above sea level, I don't think I have to worry much about the altitude decreasing performance. Still have not had much luck deciding on a TV. I'll let you all know what I decide on, Hell maybe I just keep good old trusty till she dies.
I think that you know that I was just kidding..... :p
Heck, in Florida the highest thing that you have to climb is a freeway overpass. You could tow your PU with a bicycle and a good pair of thick sole sneekers (for stopping)..........with the proper GCWR, of course.... :sombraro:
Quote from: waveryHoly cow Austin.............give it a rest....... :eyecrazy:
Holy cow Austin? I count 7 inflamatory statements from austinado, and 3 from me. The fact is his first post was rather condescending, and he's gone down from there.
Have a nice day all.
Austin
You sir, crack me up.
I've been on this forum for just over 2 years, and you stand out among everyone who posts here, as the only person who routinely challenges everyone about everything. Rarely are you complimentary and if you are, it's not without some condescending remark. You poke at people until you get a rise out of them, and then come back crying about how you've been abused. I know of no other person here who acts the way you do. I mean really, counting inflamatory statements? Do you not have a life?
If you felt there was some condescending tone to my statement that torque wins races, horsepower sells cars........then all I have to say is, you need to find some place where your ego is stroked routinely so you can feel good about yourself. You may not find that here, since this is a forum about pop-up camping.
I always heard - torque gets ya goin', horses keep ya goin'
Quote from: coachI always heard - torque gets ya goin', horses keep ya goin'
Ooh, I like that one!
Quote from: austinado16torque wins races, horsepower sells cars
Is not condiscending. But:
Quote[class]
This is a neat little saying, "Torque wins races, horsepower sells cars."
Just ask folks at Audi who continue to win at the 24hr Le Mans year after year with their diesel powered race cars.
Torque is what makes power
[/class]
is condiscending, and I think you know it, which is why you didn't quote the whole post. If the roles had been reversed, you would have flipped your lid (like you did in your second post). I did not.
What cracks me up is that you are acting just like me and even using some of the methods I've used, but don't recognize it.
Austin
I also once had an S10 with the 4.3L V6. GREAT engine. Low end torque. Could smoke tires for 200-300 feet (if you wanted to).
Too bad I had a lot of differential/rear end troubles, or I would have kept that truck a lot longer than 68000 miles.
Larry
Quote from: brainpauseCould smoke tires for 200-300 feet (if you wanted to).
Too bad I had a lot of differential/rear end troubles, or I would have kept that truck a lot longer than 68000 miles.
Larry
:rolleyes: mmm......I wonder why the differential kept failing ;)
Quote from: austinado16:rolleyes: mmm......I wonder why the differential kept failing ;)
Yeah ... darndest thing!
Quote from: austinado16:rolleyes: mmm......I wonder why the differential kept failing ;)
:D
Ok, I did it ONCE, so that's the reason I said "if you wanted it to." I had some teens trying to scratch off a black mark in a parking lot, and the longest one was about 8 feet long. I had to show 'em how it was done.
That 4.3L V6 roared to life and even surprised me. We measured the black mark, and it was over 200' long. They said I won. :D
I think the problem was that I towed a trailer a couple hundred miles that weighed no telling how much, but I soon sold it. That didn't help.
Aside from those two things, I actually did take very good care of it. I would expect a truck to last through that relatively small amount of abuse, given what others had been doing to trucks regularly.
Larry
Quote from: brainpause:DWe measured the black mark, and it was over 200' long. They said I won.:DLarry
Haahaaa! That's showin' them. ;)