Okay talented photographers, I could use some advice.
I'm looking to purchase a digital SLR with the intention of photographing my daughter doing gymnastics. The gyms don't allow flash photography during competition, so I'll be needing to overcome that little (huge) snag.
I'm leaning toward Canon or Nikon, something like the Canon Xti or Nikon D80....or maybe better. For the lens, it looks like I'll need a 70-200mm F2.8 because the equipment they compete on is positioned all over the gym....so one event might be right in front, and the next might be on the other side, maybe 50'-100' away. Sometimes there's opportunity to move around and get close to the event, other times, not so much.
So any advice on what camera brand and model would be better suited, and what lens and whether I need image stabilization, would be greatly appreciated.
I'm thinking I'll need to be shooting at 1600 ISO with a shutter at 1/125th or better if I want to stop action. But I'm concerned about "noise"(grainy) at 1600ISO.
The bad news is that this isn't an "ulimited budget" adventure. I about fell over when I saw the price of 2.8 zooms from both Canon and Nikon. I'm going to be shopping "prudently" for nice used stuff and hoping to take advantage of deals where people are upgrading to the latest and greatest equipment and selling off their year old gear.
Thanks!
Quote from: austinado16Okay talented photographers, I could use some advice.
I'm looking to purchase a digital SLR with the intention of photographing my daughter doing gymnastics. The gyms don't allow flash photography during competition, so I'll be needing to overcome that little (huge) snag.
I'm leaning toward Canon or Nikon, something like the Canon Xti or Nikon D80....or maybe better. For the lens, it looks like I'll need a 70-200mm F2.8 because the equipment they compete on is positioned all over the gym....so one event might be right in front, and the next might be on the other side, maybe 50'-100' away. Sometimes there's opportunity to move around and get close to the event, other times, not so much.
So any advice on what camera brand and model would be better suited, and what lens and whether I need image stabilization, would be greatly appreciated.
I'm thinking I'll need to be shooting at 1600 ISO with a shutter at 1/125th or better if I want to stop action. But I'm concerned about "noise"(grainy) at 1600ISO.
The bad news is that this isn't an "ulimited budget" adventure. I about fell over when I saw the price of 2.8 zooms from both Canon and Nikon. I'm going to be shopping "prudently" for nice used stuff and hoping to take advantage of deals where people are upgrading to the latest and greatest equipment and selling off their year old gear.
Thanks!
Austin - I don't know much about digi-photo stuff as I'm mostly a point and shoot guy, but you might check out this website
http://www.dpreview.com/[/color][/size][/color][/size] to do some comparisons. I had the opportunity use a Leica digital SLR to do some aerial photography and was amazed at the quality of the pics. I had the opportunity to fly a professional photographer around a couple years ago and the camera(s) he used were really high-end big $$ items. The pic quality reflected the high-end camera. I doubt you're looking to get that pricey (>$10K each) but I would think you could get a good quality, high res camera that won't break the bank. My guess is you should probably be looking at 12 - 15 megapixel resolution to help quiet down the grainyness when not using flash. Somebody told me that once:D Hope this helps.
Steve
Austin, I don't know what part of CA you're in, but if it's So CA, you might try to visit Samy's Camera. They're really helpful and often run specials on some of their stuff. This weekend they may have a "no sales tax" sale, and when you're looking at several hundred dollars for a camera, it could be worth it.
As far as cameras, I'm impressed with the Nikon D90. Could be the newer version of the D80. It's got a great lens that comes standard with the camera, and looks like it might fit your needs. The big selling point for the D90 is that it can also take video clips -- something new on digital SLRs.
Happy shopping!
I'm about 7 months ahead of you on this and I'm happy to share what I have learned.
1) Shooting sports, especially indoor sports, is the most expensive area of photograhpy to get into. My problem started with basketball this past year. You need to be able to shoot in low light and catch relatively high speed action. I don't think you'll be happy at 1/125 shutter speed. For basketball, 1/400 was minimal to stop any blur and 1/500 or greater was preferred.
2) The camera is much less important than a good lens and there is where the cost is. I've been drooling over the Canon 70-200 f/2.8 with IS for quite a while. Currently goes for about $1700 at B&H photo (Very respected seller). I'm now shooting baseball and besides that lens, I would need a 1.4 teleconverter ($290)as the current lens I'm using (255mm) still doesn't get me close enough.
3) Image Stabalization (IS) is definitely preferred. Camera shake is a problem and to eliminate it, you must shoot at about 1/40 shutter speed or better (if your shaky). The IS system gets you about 3 stops so you can drop down to (just ballparking) maybe 1/20 second and still get a pretty well focused picture. This is really helpful in low light situations but of course, doesn't really apply to sports as you will be at a faster shutter speed anyway. The overall result is that you should come away with more keepers at the end of the day. IS isn't cheap. The non IS version of the 70-200 f/2.8 is about $500 cheaper than the IS version. Although not a significant help for your sports photos, that lens is also supposed to be a great landscape lens and it will greatly help you there. Picture yourself in the bottom of the Grand Canyon :-() , the light is fading and you have no choice but a pretty slow shutter speed. The IS will be VERY helpful. 1 alternative...carry a tripod.
4) I purchased an inexpensive Canon XSi. It came with 2 kit (read cheap) lenses (and other stuff) for $849 at Costco. I'v since seen it cheaper. It's 12 megapixels which is way more than enough. I learned quickly that neither lens would work for basketball as they were not 'FAST' enough. Fast is the term used to describe how wide the aperature on the lense will open. The lower the number, the more wide open, the more light enters the lens. After much research and a limited budget, I found that a lot of 'sports' shooters on a budget purchase Canon's 'Nifty 50' lens. This is a fixed 50mm lens with an f1.8. This was my main basketball lens. Here's a sample...
(http://waygard33.smugmug.com/photos/458229062_Gvex6-M.jpg)
Obviously, you have to be close to the action. The advantage is the lens goes for about $90. They also sell the 50 with f/1.4 and f/1.2. These are much more expensive. You can also get 85mm, 100mm, and 135mm. These are good options if shopping on a budget. I would love to have the 135mm f/2 L but it sells for about $950. Wow!
On a side note, as you open up the aperature, your Depth of Field (DoF) is reduced, which if you're not careful when focusing (hard to be when your shooting kids running all over the place), you will end up with more out of focus (oof) shots. It's always something.
5) Avoid the higher ISOs as much as possible. I do everything I can to stay away from 1600 but sometimes I'm there. It usually depends on the gym. The best gyms are lit so so. The worst gyms are really dark! Not really noticed until you're looking through a camera. The high ISO pics become noisy/grainy fast. You can purchase software like Noise Ninja to help make the noisy pictures acceptable but there's another $100 out of the budget.
6) When choosing a camera you must understand that you are choosing a system when you buy. Once you start buying the expensive lenses, you are locked in to that system. If I had it to do all over again, here's what I would consider...
* I would consider the Nikon system more, especially the D90 as it is supposed to do better in lower light.
* There are now cameras that also shoot HD video! I love that. The Nikon D90 does this. Canon has just now released the XT1 which is 15 megapix and shoots HD video. I took my camera out to shoot my son and friends jumping ATVs at the dunes and I was wishing I had my camcorder too. With these cameras, you have both. There are limitations but the compromise works for me. Imagine having your new camera in the Grand Canyon and being able to shoot some video along with the pics. Here's a sample of the jumps I was shooting. I just wish I had some HD video to go with it. *I'm currently hoping that Canon will update the 50D with HD video and that will be the camera I step up to...
(http://waygard33.smugmug.com/photos/498773450_dc4tw-M.jpg)
7) I would say that anything over 10 megapixels would be fine. I bought my daughter the Canon XS (10 megpix) with a lens for $449. Also, to handle today's large picture files, you need a decent computer. I shoot in RAW (vs Jpeg) and each 1 of my pictures is anywhere from 12-15 megabytes! I view them, modify/crop as needed using Photoshop Elements ($100)(slimmed down version of the $500 photoshop program) or the software that comes with the camera ( less capable) and convert them to jpegs of varying quality and then upload them to my Smugmug site. With today's equipment, it's easy to go to an event/game and fire off several hundred pictures. Last night I took about 250 at a baseball game. It was easy. The moral of the story is you need storage space and a decent computer.
8)There is a lot of good used equipment for sale. Dgrin has a flea market with pretty respectable sellers. Also, Olympus is another choice as you can get into a really good camera for less money. Less choices on lenses however.
9) Obviously, I could go on and on. Since going head over heels with this stuff, I've found the Digital Grin photography forum.
http://www.dgrin.com/index.php
Not only are there great questions and answers to all types of questions, including folks wanting to know the best way to get started, but there are photo sections, including sports, where you can see other people's pics, from amateurs to pros, and see how they did it and what hurdles they had to overcome. You will find gymnastics, wrestling, basketball, baseball, motocross, etc, etc, etc. Also landscapes and anything else you can think of.
I hope this gets you started. There are also some great books on the subject. Good luck and enjoy!
Wayne in Oregon
Thanks for that great write-up Wayne, and to everyone else who's responded.
Oh, and my name is actually Todd. The "austinado16" thing is the factory's designation for a vintage British car that I'm known for being involved with (//www.austinamericausa.com)
I have been doing some reading at //www.dpreview.com. In fact, I started first with their 70-200mm F2.8 lens reviews because I think that's the lens I'm going to need, so I wanted to look at what they thought of the Nikon vs. Canon, and the Tamron and Sigma versions. I figure, since this is more a lens game than a body game, and the lenses are worth so darn much, I better shop via lens and then slap a body on it. I can always upgrade the body as people sell off their rigs.
The big Nikon lens got good reviews, sort of, but it's really long. The Canon lens got better reviews and isn't so silly long, so that's got me leaning toward Canon right now. Also, I picked up a guy's 35mm Canon Rebel II(built from '92-'95) w/ nice gear bag, a Manfrotto monopod, a Canon 28mm F2.8, a Canon 70-210mm F3.5-5.5, a Canon 35-80mm, a Tamron 28-300, a Tamron 2x converter, a Kilimar 800-1200!!, about a dozen filters, including a PL, and a nice vivitar flash for $245. So, if I go Canon, I've got a pretty nice bunch-o-stuff to go with it......sadly, all worthless in the gym.
I'm not sure I care about video on the camera. I've got a Panasonic Lumix FX9 that is the size of a thin wallet, takes beautiful pics, and does video. It's small and lightweight, and it's our camera of choice in the Grand Canyon. It'll take 300 pics plus all kinds of movies on a single battery charge, so it lasts us the 3 or so days we are down inside.
I also just snagged the Lumix TZ1 which is almost the same size, but a 10x lens, and much better photos and movie quality....$100 on ebay. If you (or anyone) are looking for small point and shoot with insane quality, consider buying one. The new TZ5 is even better and at //www.buy.com they are $235ish You'll leave your big DSLR at home, trust me, unless you're really shooting serious.
For real video, I just bought a Sony VX2000 from a guy who had it, a lowpro backpack for it, and about $2,000 worth of gear to go with it, for $1,200 (for what was $4,000+ in gear). So that will be the movie maker from now on.
I'll go over to the dgrin and check things out. I've been leaning toward the xti's because I've heard they're better focusers than the xsi and maybe even the T1's. But, I'm willing to spend up for 40d since it's probably a better low light camera. I actually tried some 800ISO and 1600ISO in the gym last week and used the 35mm, playing around with tweaking the ISO up to 2000, and using my one 2.8 lens to do some close up poses of my DD. Results were marginal.....and I think that was because the camera doesn't do a spot metering. So it was picking up on the brightness behind her I guess and that was throwing the light meter icons out of wack. I was in manual mod and adjusting for the light meter icons, but you wouldn't know it by the shots.
Anyway, with a DSLR, I think I'll be in the 800ISO range, maybe even 1600. Hopefully with the big lens, I can run 1/250th.
By the way, Canon has a lens rebate program on right now, and the 70-200 is $200 off. I think at B&H it's $1,499. But maybe that's not an Image Stabilized lens.
Speaking of which, maybe I don't need IS? I'm not going to be shooting below 125th, so maybe I won't see any advantage in spending up for it? What do you think?
Todd, it sounds like you're all over it and well on your way. The amount of equipment you picked up is amazing...for $245. Wow!
The $1499 sounds like the price for the IS version of the lens. If the non-IS version also has a rebate, it should be at or below $1k. I think that for sports and a higher shutter speed, you'll be fine without IS. Sounds like you have all your other bases covered.
This past basketball season, I ran into several pro-photogs shooting pics to sell to the parents. They mainly had Canon 40Ds with the 70-200 f/2.8 lens. They were shooting at pretty high ISOs. My understanding is the 40D is a good 'ProSumer' DSLR which is pretty good in low light and is better sealed against weather vs the 'Consumer' cameras like the XSi, XTi, XS, XT1, etc. I saw their pics and some were good and some not so good. They were shooting at 800 or 1600 ISOs and were doing NO post processing.
No matter what equipment you choose, there's a pretty good learning curve. I'm happy to say that I've gone from deleting 1/2 of my pics to now deleting just a few. The deletes are typically due to OOF shots. That's another nice thing about the 70-200; it focuses much faster than the cheap lenses I have. That sort of brings up another topic...I do see several older lenses for sale. My understanding is that the focus and telephoto technology continues to improve. I'm not sure if a 15 year old lens will focus as quickly as a newer lens. This may be more important if you're daughter is running/tumbling across a wide matt. Not so much if she's walking a balance beam or something similar.
There's a thread on Dgrin today where someone is asking about the 70-200 f/2.8 vs the 100-400 f/3.5-5.6. The 100-400 is too slow for the gym but it brought up some good conversation.
Another link you would be interested in is this one...
http://www.kenrockwell.com/index.htm
Ken is a VERY opiniated reviewer and really stirs things up. He likes the older tried and true equipment and strikes me as your kind of guy.
One last thing...I don't know if you noticed or not but the different levels of cameras are also very different in sizes. The XSi (consumer level) is much smaller than the 40D (ProSumer level). The consumer level is more about plastic and as I mentioned, is not well sealed against the weather. Also, the Nikons are supposed to have a completely different ergonomic feel than the Canons. Many people consider this a large reason for purchasing one or the other. I haven't held a camera yet, that I haven't felt comfortable with.
Let us know how it turns out...and make sure you post the pics or a link!
Wayne in Oregon
Todd,
I found this gymnastics post on the dgrin forum. It's a parent asking questions. Check it out.
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=125010&highlight=Gymnastics
and another...
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=108375&highlight=Gymnastics
and another...
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=119711&highlight=Gymnastics
Wayne in Oregon
Okay......signed up at dgrin and did a search for "gymnastics" and found a bunch of threads. So I've got some reading to do, and looking forward to it.
Looks like a lot of people even post their photos in their threads, so I'll be able to see what they're getting with what rig.
I read that "Shooting B-ball" tutorial too and found that interesting. Especially since he talks about using different prime lenses instead of a zoom. That made me think, "Mmmm, maybe I should go that route....get a 300mm and maybe 50mm." But, I'm not sure I want to lug all that gear around and be switching lenses.
I think if the 40d is a bigger body, that would balance out their big/heavy zoom pretty good. I've got a monopod so I could mount the zoom on that, and just keep it like that all day. I've seen other parents do that.
The reason for starting into this is that, 1) I love taking pictures of everything we do. 2) The pictures that the pros take and try to charge so much for, aren't that great. At least not the places we've been. And they are so expensive. I want a ton of pictures, not just one 5x7 for $20 with no negative.
I guess I'll read up at dgrin, watch Craigslist for 40d prices and zooms and see what happens. I actually looked into renting at //www.lensrental.com but it's $125 for a body and $109 for the big lens. We have about 8-9 meets in a 2-3mo period, so for that money, I could just buy nice used stuff.
I really appreciate all your input Wayne!
Oh, by the way, I'm selling the Kalimar 800-1200mm if you're interested. I'll never use anything like that. Fun lens though if you do outdoor stuff and want to reach out and touch something! It's like brand new with the soft case and paperwork & warranty card. I've tried it out and the magnification is insane.
Quote from: austinado16Okay......signed up at dgrin and did a search for "gymnastics" and found a bunch of threads. So I've got some reading to do, and looking forward to it.
Looks like a lot of people even post their photos in their threads, so I'll be able to see what they're getting with what rig.
I read that "Shooting B-ball" tutorial too and found that interesting. Especially since he talks about using different prime lenses instead of a zoom. That made me think, "Mmmm, maybe I should go that route....get a 300mm and maybe 50mm." But, I'm not sure I want to lug all that gear around and be switching lenses.
I think if the 40d is a bigger body, that would balance out their big/heavy zoom pretty good. I've got a monopod so I could mount the zoom on that, and just keep it like that all day. I've seen other parents do that.
The reason for starting into this is that, 1) I love taking pictures of everything we do. 2) The pictures that the pros take and try to charge so much for, aren't that great. At least not the places we've been. And they are so expensive. I want a ton of pictures, not just one 5x7 for $20 with no negative.
I guess I'll read up at dgrin, watch Craigslist for 40d prices and zooms and see what happens. I actually looked into renting at //www.lensrental.com but it's $125 for a body and $109 for the big lens. We have about 8-9 meets in a 2-3mo period, so for that money, I could just buy nice used stuff.
I really appreciate all your input Wayne!
You're welcome Todd! I have always been one of those guys who takes tons of pics. Finally, the DSLRs have become affordable and I'm really in deep now. Since I got my camera in Nov, I've probably taken 7 or 8 thousand pics. At least 1/2 of those have been uploaded to SmugMug. My wife enjoys showing her friends at work and my family in Chicago can keep up. It's easy to pic and choose and order prints.
Here's a link of the many baseball pics I've taken of my older son's team through just the last few weeks of baseball season. I only make about 1/2 the games as I coach my younger son's team as well (I have an excited Mom who uses my camera to take the team pics while I coach). I enjoy taking pics of all the kids and the parents can go to the link and view them and print as they like.
http://waygard33.smugmug.com/NHS%202009%20BaseballCan't wait to use my camera on our next camping trip. Haven't had the chance to take it hiking or get some really good pics of my pup. :sombraro:
BTW...I've looked through your other websites (Austinado16 and Vintage water craft)...Just what you needed...another hobby... :D
Edit: Just realized you mentioned selling that giant lens...Wow. Can't imagine. I'm afraid I'll have to pass. I need to many others first. Thanks though.
Wayne in Oregon
Going to smugmug in a moment, but wanted to post this for your viewing pleasure.
Behold......
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x242/austinado16/KalimarLens.jpg)
Quote from: austinado16Going to smugmug in a moment, but wanted to post this for your viewing pleasure.
Behold......
HOLY 'What the Heck is that?' Batman?
That looks like something that fell off the space shuttle. What ever you do, don't look at the sun with it...It'll be just like being there!
Seriously, I tried to find some info on Kalimar. Never heard of it before. Just bits and pieces is all I could find. Sounds like they went out of business or became part of another company in 1999. Y2K must have got them... :book:
Thanks for posting the photo. Pretty cool. I'd have to hire an assistant to use the thing.
wg
Purchased a nice used Canon 40D yesterday. Came with:
-Giottos LCD screen protector
-Canon Battery Grip
-Extra Canon Battery
-Canon camera bag
-"How to use your 40D" Book
-All its original cables and CDs
Now it's time to get reading and practicing:
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x242/austinado16/P1040495.jpg)
Can I ask you where you bought your camera? You can pm me if you don't want to post it here. You don't even need to tell if you don't want. Just curious is all.
Thanks,
John
gymnastics with no flash.... hmm. fast and long lens... equals pricey ;)
Quote from: lexlawsgymnastics with no flash.... hmm. fast and long lens... equals pricey ;)
Uhhhhh, yeah. Talk about throwing down a pile of cash! I'm looking at the camera, which fits in one hand and thinking, "Mmmm....I only paid $250.00 for my Pop-up." Of course I still need to spend about $800-$900 on the "fast zoom" lens I need in order to be able to shoot indoors with no flash. :(
John, I found it on Craigslist by doing a search for "Canon 40d" It was $650 with all the stuff listed above. But that was without a lens, and without a compact flash card. A couple weeks ago, I found a guy selling a hole "collection" of Canon EOS equipment so I bought it all because there were so many lenses, monopod, filters, gear bag, etc. So I just needed a modern digital body to go with all those lenses. Here's a decent set up in Nipomo and it's been for sale for about 3 weeks with no takers. Offer $550 and see what happens.
http://slo.craigslist.org/pho/1166601087.htmlHere's an even nicer set up in Grover Beach, and again, it's been for sale for a few weeks with no takers.
http://slo.craigslist.org/pho/1160969637.html
You got a good camera that will serve you quite well for a long time. I have both the 20D and a 5D. I have found that for print sizes up to 11X17 or in some cases, 13X19, I can see very little difference in the image quality between the two. At sizes of 17X22, I can start to see some difference but not much at normal viewing distances.
At 8X10, the pictures of the 40D will look great!
I use Photoshop CS2 and I have found that with judicious sharpening, you can rez up to fairly large prints with the 20D and still look very good, with resolution set at 240 DPI. Do your sharpening last! I also use the PhotoKit sharpening plugin. Works very well.
The 40D has greater resolution than my 20D so you should be very happy with the images it can produce!
If you shoot in the RAW mode, which I recommend for best image quality, you can generally add about 20% more saturation to really bring out the color!
Also, go to a book store as there are books specifically for the 40D that go into much more detail on the various functions and settings than the manual. I think there is also a DVD on its opperation as well. I found the DVD's for my 20D and 5D at Calumet in Sants Ana, McFadden off ramp, and in the same shopping center as REI. There is also one in LA. Also, check out Samy's as well. That is where I purchased my photo printer. Both places are very helpfull with your questions.
Digital photography is a lot of fun. While I miss the darkroom, and now that all my equipment is in boxes in the basement, I can still do my photography with a lot less mess and time, and still get very good and in some instances better results than my old darkroom prints. Yes, I have done side by side comparisons!
Another important point is to get a monitor callibration kit and callibrate your monitor. Otherwise, you will be pulling your hair out trying to get the print to look like the image on the monitor. Also, your monitor will probably be too bright and you will have to adjust it down. I have the brightness setting on my Dell monitor set to just 5 out of 100, just enough to keep it from flickering. With the callibration, my prints match the image on the monitor by about 95%. Remember also that the image on the monitor is back lit, while a print is front lit so they never will match perfectly.
I will stop rambling now, so go out and have fun with your new camera.
Jim
Thanks for all the tips Jim!
This camera did come with that thick aftermarket 40D book, so I've been bouncing around in it, reading and testing on the camera.
Need to buy that zoom lens next, along with some version of photoshop, and maybe noise ninja.
I also need to learn about all this post processing "stuff" and shooting in RAW vs. Jpeg, etc. Gonna take some time to get up over this learning curve.
Here's a really nice camera, with no shutter delay and takes great pics and at a reasonable price. http://shop3.frys.com/product/5748612?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
Hey Jim, quick question:
This camera didn't come with a compact flash card, so on the way home from buying it, I purchased a 4GB SanDisk ExtremeIII card. Today I was reading specs on the Canon website and it only lists the 40d and 50d as being compatible with version I and II. For as nice a camera as this is, it's performance in the gym is very poor. Any chance the version III card could be causing problems?
In manual mode with ISO at either 1600 or 3200, 24mm f2.8 lens and adjusting the shutter speed to center the light meter (minimum of 1/125th to 1/250th) I'm getting sort of dark, noisey, poor quality shots.......using spot metering and AI Servo focus.
Quote from: austinado16Hey Jim, quick question:
This camera didn't come with a compact flash card, so on the way home from buying it, I purchased a 4GB SanDisk ExtremeIII card. Today I was reading specs on the Canon website and it only lists the 40d and 50d as being compatible with version I and II. For as nice a camera as this is, it's performance in the gym is very poor. Any chance the version III card could be causing problems?
I'm not completely sure but I don't believe the card will damage your camera. I think your older camera will just not be able to take advantage of the speed the Extreme III offers. If there was a chance for damage, the card makers would have to do a much better job of warning potential customers as I know you're not the first guy to stick a new memory card in an older camera.
QuoteIn manual mode with ISO at either 1600 or 3200, 24mm f2.8 lens and adjusting the shutter speed to center the light meter (minimum of 1/125th to 1/250th) I'm getting sort of dark, noisey, poor quality shots.......using spot metering and AI Servo focus.
When I first got my DSLR, I was very dissapointed with the picture quality when shooting my son's basketball team in a dark gym. I was trying different lenses and changing/adjusting the light metering and focusing methods over and over. After shooting many, many games, and usually a good 300-400 pictures per game, my images gradually became better. I found where I needed to be given the limitations of my lens (50mm f/1.8), which meter mode worked best, and when to use AI Focus or AI Servo mode. Even then, I still had to battle borderline shutter speeds. Even if I had everything right, my lens is slow to focus and I would find many of my shots focused on the guys behind or in front of the kid I was trying to get. In the end (of basketball season), I feel like I learned a lot and ended up with quite a few decent shots. My success varied by gym and the lighting at the time. It got to where I could walk into a new gym and know right away if I was going to struggle or not.
Now I'm shooting baseball and the light is sooooo much better, although still presents plenty of challenges. I'm using slower, longer lenses so as the sun fades, I start to bump into those challenges again. Also, bright sun and shadows (high contrast) are a pain and don't lend well to nice photos. Also, the lens I have is not long enough so getting outfielders is difficult.
Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is...Lens, lens, lens, lens. You have to have the right lens for the job. I don't think your wide angle is helping you out. IMO, f/2.8 is still relatively slow for all but the best cameras and/or really high ISOs. I know you're looking at the 70-200 f/2.8. I want the same lens but I feel I will still struggle with that lens for the same reason (f/2.8). The better quality will help some but I'm sure I would be borderline on my shutter speeds at best. I'm leaning towards primes like 100mm or 135 at f/2 or lower. Some day, a nicer camera with higher ISO capability will help although just because some cameras go higher, doesn't mean you really want to go there as the images are too noisey to use.
I'm not currently using it...I would be happy to send you my 50mm f/1.8 lens for you to play with for awhile. Let me know...
Keep working at it. I'd also suggest going outside and taking some shots of your daughter doing some gymnastics in the yard and see if your camera/lens shines in this light.
Good luck...
Wayne in Oregon
Quote from: austinado16Hey Jim, quick question:
This camera didn't come with a compact flash card, so on the way home from buying it, I purchased a 4GB SanDisk ExtremeIII card. Today I was reading specs on the Canon website and it only lists the 40d and 50d as being compatible with version I and II. For as nice a camera as this is, it's performance in the gym is very poor. Any chance the version III card could be causing problems?
In manual mode with ISO at either 1600 or 3200, 24mm f2.8 lens and adjusting the shutter speed to center the light meter (minimum of 1/125th to 1/250th) I'm getting sort of dark, noisey, poor quality shots.......using spot metering and AI Servo focus.
I could be wrong on this but I do not think that the CF card is the problem. If it was, you would get an error message or the image would not write to the card. I know that other 40D users on Digital Camera and Review use Extreme cards with no problems.
As for the poor quality of the pictures, try experimenting with the mode. Start off simple and use P mode and see what happens. Though I do like manual, sometimes, things just might not be set just right. I would also use the Evaluative metering mode as I have found this to be most accurate. This is the mode that Michael Reichmann of the Luminus Landscape uses and has also found to be mostly spot on.
I would also use a lower ISO as 1600 and especially 3200 are going to have noise. As for the dark images, they are under exposed. Using Evaluative will hopefully correct this.
You did not mention if the images are in or out of focus but sometimes, the Canon cameras have difficulty with AI servo in poor light. In fact, poor light focus has been a perennial complaint with most EOS's. My 20D is rotton with the focus in poor light. I missed a couple of great sunsets in Yellowstone because of poor focus.
Lastly, make sure that you have firmware version 1.1.1. You can download it from the Canon website. Go to CanonUSA then to support, consumer, EOS, and then type in the camera you have and then to downloads.
Unfortunately, I am mostly a landscape and underground photograper - don't ask - and have limited experience in event type photography. Go to DP Review and join. In the 50D - 10D forum, you will find many people that are more than willing to help and have much more experience with this type of photography than I do.
The 40D is a great camera and is capable of outstanding photographs. There is a learning curve with them so be patient and try different settings. That is the beauty of having that LCD on the back as you can take a picture and immediately see how it looks. If it is not what you want, change a setting and try again. Experimentation is the key; you will find what works for you.
One more thing. If you have access to something like Photoshop Elements or another post - processing program, remarkable things can be done to correct under or over exposed images and even cleaning up some of the noise. I have salvaged a number of pictures that I screwed up on and have actually produced decent prints from them. Poor focus however can't be post processed.
Hope this helps,
Jim
Man, a bunch of replies were lost during the forum upgrade.
Anyway, a quick recap.
1) I did have old firmware and upgraded to the latest. Thanks for that tip.
2) I loaded the Canon software CD's so I now have a decent post processing program with noise reduction, as well as Canon's EOS Utility which allows access to the camera like it was a computer.
3) Used my 70-210/4.0 Canon lens with all the gym overhead lights on and actually got some decent photos of action and candids about 2 weeks ago.
4) Today I purchased a Canon 70-200/2.8 L non-IS lens from a guy on the local Craigslist. So I can finally get to practicing. It gives me 1/320th at 1600ISO with only about half of the overhead lights on in the gym. At the same time, that F4.0 zoom gives just 1/100th at 1600ISO.
So hopefully I'mnot just a poser, and am man enough to swing this bad-boy around and start taking some decent photos!
i shoot a lot of high school sports in a varaiety of lighting condition.
i like to set my camera to 1200 or 1600 and put the camera on manual, perhaps a 250th or 200th on the shutter speed and an aperature of maybe 4 or 5.6.
then i dial my flash down to maybe half or one quarter power on ttl so it kicks out just a little light and most comes from the ambient lights.
experimentation is necessary.
No flash allowed at any Gymnastics competition, anywhere. Hence the need for 2.8 and 1600ISO.
Just a little camera update:
Scored a Canon 50D on the local Craigslist about 2 weeks ago. Original owner had purchased it from the local camera store in March, not registered it with Canon, and only taken 2,000 shots. Came with a CF card and 2 batteries. So I sold my 40D, but kept the battery grip and wound up breaking even on the deal.
The 50D really takes some nice photos in the gym! Competition season is just 3 weeks away, so I'm back to the practices taking shots and trying to dial in my skills.
So which camera did you use on your recent trip to the grand canyon?
I am impressed with the quality of the photos.
I am looking to get a DSLR myself and like the video on the Canon T1i and see Costco cary them, but as you have pointed out, the lens is the expensive part.
My point and shoot is a Panasonic Lumix FX-9 and a Lumix TZ-1. I started with an FX-9 about 2 years ago and love it....usually. It's not a great "sports/action" camera, and with only a 3x zoom, it's limited that way too, but it's the size of a man's wallet, and takes great movies too. My brother and mom have both had the TZ-1's since I got the FX-9. They bought the TZ's because of the 10x zoom. The TZ's are great sports/action cameras and take even nice video. So recently I bagged one on ebay for $100........and that's the camera I used this time in the GC. I like the photos we got with it, but it was clunkier to have hanging around my neck in it's LowePro case and I got real tired of both the weight and the lens cap.
My suggestion for a point-and-shoot would be the newer TZ-5 and ebay is probably the least expensive source right now. They're still pretty spendy at B&H Photo (//www.bhphoto.com) and similar sites. I'm not sure what the FX-9 was upgraded too, but with some sluething you should be able to find out at //www.dpreview.com or similar.
I don't take the big DSLR anywhere except the gymnastics gym. It's too big, too heavy...and being that it's $2,500+ worth of gear, too expensive.
I was always an Oly guy in film but with digital I can't leave Canon alone, just fine glass. If you're still shopping, the independent reviewer with hands-on info is at //www.dcresource.com.
If you're ready to buy, save time and use //www.resellerratings.com.
Remember, it's not just the price, but the seller you're dealing with. :frosty:
I'd never had an SLR until now, but did love the Olympus "Infinity" line of 35mm point and shoots. Remember those? The 200 series and the 300 series? Still have one of both and still love the photos I get with them. Old school, I know.
I'm getting happier with the choice of Canon, although I think the Nikon may have better focusing for sports and maybe even a better sensor. I'm still just blown away by the photos that a gal at the gym is getting with a standard Nikkor 18-200 lens and her D80.