I just finished reading an article in the local paper concerning firearms in national parks. ?:Loaded guns will be allowed in Yellowstone, the Grand Canyon and other national parks under a new law that takes effect Monday. The law lets licensed gun owners bring firearms into national parks and wildlife refuges as long as they are allowed by state law. ? IN the past most parks had a policy that if weapons were brought into a park, they had to be stored and locked up for the duration of the stay. Does this policy make you feel safer ir is it a cause for concern. I only stay in the area with hook ups, so it may give me cause for concern. I know a lot of folks enjoy boondocking and dispersal camping, where this may be a benefit due to the isolated nature of the campsites. The Park service is against it, and Park Service spokesman, David Barna cited a decrease in crime at the national parks recently. They did give statistics for 2008: ?3,760 reported major crimes, including five homicides and 37 rapes?, but the park service does not keep track of which crimes involved the use of firearms. I?d be interested in hearing your opinions.
Scificamper
2007 Jayco 1007
2003 Ford Explorer
I'm totally for it. We never camp or travel without having some kind of firearm with us. Thanks for sharing this information :)
No big deal, licensed gun owners have proven to be a pretty stable lot in every state that has enacted a concealed carry law. I suspect nothing has changed in the parks, the folks with firearms have probably always had firearms with them, just now it's legal. A couple of websites with interesting reading on the statistics.
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html#usa
I also don't think much will change, except now it is legal. I think many people carry a weapon when camping.
I'm with everyone else, I don't see it having much of an impact. I have no problem with it.
Sure it'll have an impact. Now I can camp in National Parks! I absolutely refused since I couldn't legally carry a firearm there before.
I don't see any change it will bring. If someone was going to carry a firearm into the park, legal or illegal, there's not much for security to stop them. However since it is now legal will some drunks or unresponsible people get wild, shooting off guns anywhere out in the park, knowing they are within the law? With people camping in the boondocks this could lead to some unfortunate incidents, but again that could happen anywhere.
Quote from: 4Campers;215101However since it is now legal will some drunks or unresponsible people get wild, shooting off guns anywhere out in the park, knowing they are within the law?
They are not with in the law to be shooting just for fun, unless the park has a shooting range. Having a permit to carry a concealed weapon does not give you the right to shoot anywhere you want.
OH BOY........here we go......:yikes:
Will a mod please consider removing this thread. This topic always ends up ugly. I thought, at one point, there were rules about this topic but I can't find the rules anymore........:confused:
This action to reverse the unconstitutional prohibition of firearms within a national park was long overdue.
Quote from: wavery;215108OH BOY........here we go......:yikes:
Will a mod please consider removing this thread. This topic always ends up ugly. I thought, at one point, there were rules about this topic but I can't find the rules anymore........:confused:
Just what I was thinking. Religion, politics and guns were no no's.
Why remove the thread, it hasn't gotten ugly. In my opinion we need some topics that will get people talking again. The site has been pretty quiet for a while.
Quote from: CajunCamper;215118Why remove the thread, it hasn't gotten ugly. In my opinion we need some topics that will get people talking again. The site has been pretty quiet for a while.
I AGREE: It has'nt gotten ugly and probably won't and I, for one, have learned something from it...
Quote from: 4Campers;215101However since it is now legal will some drunks or unresponsible people get wild, shooting off guns anywhere out in the park, knowing they are within the law? QUOTE]
I wouldnt sweat it. Even exposing your handgun could have legal ramifications
One incident with a firearm, such as drinking or shooting it off in a park, or even showing it to someone could and likely would lead to revocation of your permit. Having the firearm on you while drunk or even drinking can lead to some serious fines as well as revocation.
As for alcohol and concealed carry permits there is no legal limit, it's entirely up to the discretion of the officer involved. He can smell it on your breath and cite you for having a handgun, carry permit or not.
They dont just hand permits out to people who ask, there is a federal background check and if the instructor should decide you have no business with a concealed firearm he can basically blackball you from every getting the permit. My son inlaw who is a state trooper told me that when he stops someone at 3 am in the morning and they handover their conceal carry permit along with drivers license he takes it a little easier because you dont get a carry permit if you have ever had a restraining order or any kind of felony.
Quote from: Old Goat;215127I AGREE: It has'nt gotten ugly and probably won't and I, for one, have learned something from it...
I agree, use it as a learning tool.
I don't need no stinkin guns - my hands are lethal weapons. :D
And they're registered as lethal weapons of destruction
This thread may not be "ugly" yet, but forum rules prohibit discussing guns.
You can find the "rules" that PUT has developed over the years in the sticky post at the top of the general board in the "New users please read" post and include:
"Specific Rules
Well, every community has to have some rules that are set in stone. These are ours. Violations of any specific rule will cause the post to be removed without notice. Repeated violations will cause the offending member to have their posting privileges suspended or revoked.
First of all remember your safety. You are publishing information on the Internet for all to see. While someone needs to be a member to post, anyone can read. Personally identifiable information such as home addresses, full names, children’s name and photos are just some of the things you should think twice about posting.
Folks who register and then never post will have their accounts locked and deleted after about six months. None of the Admins is going to be sitting by the computer with a stop watch, but we will clean things up every once and a while.
Next, don't argue with a moderator on the board. Take any dispute off the board to e-mail. This has not been a problem for a long time, so we are hoping it stays that way.
* Keep it clean. Topics of a sexual nature (including innuendo) are not allowed.
* Keep it relevant to pop up camping in all forums except the Campfire area
* It s OK to criticize a product, manufacturer, campground or Pop UP Times. Just be honest and fair to all parties involved, including your fellow board readers
* NO name-calling - like TROLL!
* Accept the fact that this board is and will always be moderated. But we ll go easy on the delete buttons unless the rules are ignored.
* No gun topics.
* Do not use the forum for commercial purposes. Do not use members e-mail accounts to send unsolicited Spam e-mail. Do not use the forums to advertise your business."
Then someone kill it. Makes no difference to me.
Lori,
Thanks for posting the rules and also thanks for NOT locking the thread.
The OP was just posting about the NEW law....Which I was not aware of and the following posts where opinions from members of PUT. Yes the rules state no g's and most boards if not all state the 3G rule because everyone has there own opinion and that can or will create problems.
Thanks for letting me know how everyone else feels about this new law.
:usflag:
Please accept my apologies to any I have offended by starting this thread. It was not my intention to start a second amendment debate. It is a done deal, and a radical departure from prior policy, although keep in mind that the federal law also refers to state law, and it may not apply to all national parks. You may have to ask at the time you reserve, or show up at the park. I was thinking more in terms of a safety issue, ie., does it make you feel safer, especially boondockers. I have never really thought about the fact that my next door camper may or may not be armed. I was at a campground in Missouri last year, and a rather loud domestic fracas broke out in a nearby cabin, and police were eventually called out. I guess I viewed campgrounds as a safe haven from the outside world.
Scificamper
2007 Jayco 1007
2003 Ford Explorer
Quote from: CajunCamper;215118Why remove the thread, it hasn't gotten ugly. In my opinion we need some topics that will get people talking again. The site has been pretty quiet for a while.
Cajun is right....People are talking again and this site is waking up...Keep it up guys...
Quote from: scificamper;215150I guess I viewed campgrounds as a safe haven from the outside world.
Scificamper
2007 Jayco 1007
2003 Ford Explorer
I think there are no safe havens anymore. Pretty nasty place the world is.
Quote from: GeneF;215115Just what I was thinking. Religion, politics and guns were no no's.
I think in a public forum if you are going to be offended by something... DON'T READ it.... you have a choice.... its not like someone is holding a
gun to your head making you read it!
"Gun laws" is an important topic for those of us who actually camp in national parks because knowing the laws and protecting our family and property is very important to some people. I think if people start talking about actual gun use and popping caps... well, thats a totally different story.
If topics like religion and politics are no-no's then ya better delete all the "pray for me" threads and the ones about the Governor closing all the state parks too.... just sayin.
:#..................
Quote from: Gracy;215174I think in a public forum if you are going to be offended by something... DON'T READ it.... you have a choice.... its not like someone is holding a gun to your head making you read it!
"Gun laws" is an important topic for those of us who actually camp in national parks because knowing the laws and protecting our family and property is very important to some people. I think if people start talking about actual gun use and popping caps... well, thats a totally different story.
If topics like religion and politics are no-no's then ya better delete all the "pray for me" threads and the ones about the Governor closing all the state parks too.... just sayin.
Gracy
I am fully aware that I do not have to read anything on a public forum. Just been around long enough to see what can happen on threads about religion, politics and guns. There are reasons why these topics have been discouraged.
If the discussion is about the gun law itself, then maybe it is a topic that the moderators are being a bit lenient on.
Once this gets into I have a right, I will protect, you don't need a gun, etc, then I hope this thread will be shut down. Because then it does not get pretty.
As for the "pray for me threads" the members of this forum have been a family for many years, shared many tragic and happy events, and yes, have offered private prayers for members but have not held prayer meetings nor pushed religous beliefs.
and yes, I camp in private, state, and national parks.
Quote from: Gracy;214935I'm totally for it. We never camp or travel without having some kind of firearm with us. Thanks for sharing this information :)
:book: Thanks for sharing Gracy.........I'm sure that SCCAMPERS will feel safer now......:eyecrazy:
With a new owner of the site, maybe things have changed. The site has advertising for a class to get your concealed carry permit.:eyecrazy:
http://www.helpmeshoot.com/
Quote from: scificamper;215150Please accept my apologies to any I have offended by starting this thread. It was not my intention to start a second amendment debate.
No apologies necessary. GeneF and I have been members of this board since 2002 and have seen more than our fair share of these kinds of discussions that start out harmlessly enough, but when, like GeneF said, the discussion turns to it being a debate about the right to bear arms under the Second Amendment, there are strong opinions on both sides of the debate and things can and usually do get very heated. I posted the forum rules to gently remind everyone of this.
Quote from: Gracy;215174I think in a public forum if you are going to be offended by something... DON'T READ it.... you have a choice.... its not like someone is holding a gun to your head making you read it!
"Gun laws" is an important topic for those of us who actually camp in national parks because knowing the laws and protecting our family and property is very important to some people. I think if people start talking about actual gun use and popping caps... well, thats a totally different story.
If topics like religion and politics are no-no's then ya better delete all the "pray for me" threads and the ones about the Governor closing all the state parks too.... just sayin.
Just as we all have a the right to free speech under the First Amendment, we don't have the right to falsely yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre. And even though this is a "public" forum, in the sense that anyone can register and participate, it is the private property of someone, originally PUT Dave, now Dino, who graciously pays for and supports our entertainment and has the right to require that users comply with the owner's rules of usage. When we register with PUT, we agree to abide by the forum's rules and policies, and if we don't, the site owner has the right to kick us off. Posting on this site is privilege, not a right.
I think, so far the only debate has been if this thread should be pulled or not. I don't think there has been any debate about second amendment rights. I don't think the thread would have had so much action if no one objected to it. The thread was posted about a new law that is of interest to some campers, and asked what people thought about it. Not a debate over second amendment rights.
Quote from: tlhdoc;215196i think, so far the only debate has been if this thread should be pulled or not. I don't think there has been any debate about second amendment rights. I don't think the thread would have had so much action if no one objected to it. The thread was posted about a new law that is of interest to some campers, and asked what people thought about it. Not a debate over second amendment rights.
[size="3"]Amen!!![/size]
Scificamper, I want to thank you for posting your concerns about the new law. I think it was very appropriate for you to post information that could affect each and everyone of us that spends time in the National Parks. In my opionion, you need not appologize for raising this topic, I can't imagine how your informing us of the new law and the concerns you have could possibly offend anyone.
I think everyone replied to the thread with their opinions in a very respectful and appropriate manner as the responders stayed on topic.
The thread made an unnecessary turn in my opionion when OH BOY...HERE WE GO was posted. And then we had the quoting of the rule book. Wavery and Griffsmom, nothing personal, but was that really necessary? It's seems that your comments are what changed the tone of the thread.
I am in agreement to delete any thread if it were to turn ugly or to possibly delete specific post by individuals if their commets were inappropriate, but to flag a harmless post because of some fear that it might get ugly seems a bit of an alarmist approach to me.
If you want to delete the thread, by all means delete it, I won't get my feelings hurt or offended, but it won't be because the thread had gotten ugly or out of line by those responding to the topic.
Let's not be so affraid to have discussion with one another regardless of the topic. That's all I have to say.
My request to consider "Removing" this thread was truly uncalled for.
The original post did not offend anyone and neither has any of the subsequent posts. As was mentioned, It has been civil and more informative than most will ever realize (I won't go into that :p).
There are 2 issues here. 1st, it has been against the rules in the past to bring up any "GUN" topic. I was once scolded (in a PM) for posting the picture of a squirt gun. I didn't understand it at the time (a few years ago) and thought that is was an over-reaction. Then as the thread went on, it drew people into the forum that have never even posted here before. It ended up being quite ugly and it did get removed. I never made another post on that thread after the original one. The 2nd issue is the hatred that is often engendered by this topic when it does get controversial. There are very strong and emotionally charged reasons why people inject themselves into these discussions and there seems to be a lack of balance on both spectrums. It has been my (and many others) experience that there is no such thing as a "Balanced" discussion of this issue in these types of forums. That's why the issue is "Banned" from a number of forums. It's not the issue itself that is the problem, it tends to be the people that are drawn to the issue.
I guess that I wasn't really looking for the thread be removed as I was for it to be "closed" or at the very least, closely watched so that it didn't need to be removed at some point. My concern wasn't so much about regular members here as it was about people that seem to scour these forums looking for this particular topic so that they can post their highly inflammatory views on the topic (on either one side or the other).
I also have very strong feelings on this topic but I know that a "Camping" forum isn't an appropriate venue for expressing those views any more than it is for expressing views on other topics that I might mention (and almost did :p).
Quote from: CajunCamper;215233And then we had the quoting of the rule book. Wavery and Griffsmom, nothing personal, but was that really necessary? It's seems that your comments are what changed the tone of the thread.
It was "necessary" only to the extent that I am one of the moderators for these forums and help the adminstrators keep an eye on things since they can't be everywhere. I posted the rules as a gentle reminder of the rules we're supposed to follow in posting on this forum but didn't close or remove the thread.
Wavery, thanks for your response, I want you to know I respect your opinions and thoughts. I can appreciate the fact that some topics tend to create more of a stir than others and I fully understand you wanting those in charge of monitoring the site to keep an eye on this thread.
I have learned over the years that in order to have meaningful open and honest discussions there are certain risk that are involved while at the same time I believe they are risk that are worth taking in order to have those open and honest discussions.
Once a discussion becomes heated and or inappropriate then by all means it would be time to freeze or delete the thread all together.
In my opinion it was very apparent that the thread was never intended to create or invite a battle of words on a subject that has been defined as off limits nor did the conversation ever reach a point that should have caused alarm.
I just don't want us to be fearful of where a discussion may go before it ever goes there. There are tools on the site to remove a thread if it goes bad without calling people on the carpet for having used the word "Gun" or some of the other words that society seems to be so hypersensitive to these days. I even saw someone reply to this thread and they referred to the word gun basically as the g word. Come on let's use a little common sense and not be fearful of convesration for heavens sake. Let's also have a little more confidence in our good friends here to handle themselves in an orderly manner.
That's all I'm saying. This thread would have faded into the sunset had it been left alone.
Thanks for allowing me to voice my opinion.
Quote from: griffsmom;215244It was "necessary" only to the extent that I am one of the moderators for these forums and help the adminstrators keep an eye on things since they can't be everywhere. I posted the rules as a gentle reminder of the rules we're supposed to follow in posting on this forum but didn't close or remove the thread.
I am also a moderator, and I have been checking this thread daily. I also have not chose to close or remove the thread (which is obvious that it is still open). The thread is informing people of new laws in some National Parks. Truthful information, and not hype, is good to know.
Actually, I was surprised that it remained on this board. It was also submitted to two other boards and was locked immediately on one, and never made the light of day on the other (assuming I submitted it correctly-at my age not always sure).
Scificamper
2007 Jayco 1007
2003 Ford Explorer
Quote from: scificamper;215256Actually, I was surprised that it remained on this board. It was also submitted to two other boards and was locked immediately on one, and never made the light of day on the other (assuming I submitted it correctly-at my age not always sure).
The other board it showed up on then was deleted is also DNO's and they are much stricter.
Quote from: scificamper;215256Actually, I was surprised that it remained on this board. It was also submitted to two other boards and was locked immediately on one, and never made the light of day on the other (assuming I submitted it correctly-at my age not always sure).
Scificamper
2007 Jayco 1007
2003 Ford Explorer
For what it's worth, I found the posted link interesting and relevant to any camping forum. However, I do think that it would have been prudent to lock it and leave it. As it stands, some of our concerns may have lead to some interesting (and productive) exchanges and also may have kept the emotions in check.
Quote from: wavery;215261For what it's worth, I found the posted link interesting and relevant to any camping forum. However, I do think that it would have been prudent to lock it and leave it. As it stands, some of our concerns may have lead to some interesting (and productive) exchanges and also may have kept the emotions in check.
Just admit it... you're a pot stirrer! :eyecrazy:
:-() hahahah :p
I believe the intent of the OP was to provide information as to the National Park rule change and nothing more. Too many times a thread is locked or deleted all for the mention of a word without the contents ever being read.
I appreciate this thread and am glad that it has been let run.