RE: Coleman ABS roof question

[hoppy]

 
Hello everyone,
 
   Anyone  have any information of how many roofs have been plagued with the bow and twist problem these units had in the past?
 
    I think the years were between 1996 - 2002.
 
   I was thinking of retiring the ol  1978 Palomino, and would like to purchase a used Coleman.
 
    Knowing that Coleman will not warrant the roof to anyone other the the original owner, this is kinda risky.(Already checked with the dealer nearest to me on this)
 
 
 
     Couple of questions......
 
     What was the extent of the problem?  ( 10 %, 25 % , 50 %, or more of all the roofs produced)
 
      Is there any time table if the used camper does not have the problem, is it safe to assume there won t be a problem?
 
 
       Any info regarding this issue would be appreciated.  
 
    Any Coleman representitives input would be also appreciated.
 
 
     Keep your kindling dry,
 
     Hoppy

[birol]

 hoppy
With the license issues fleetwood is having with Coleman right now, I guess their PU s are now Fleetwood PU s.
 
 Personally, I would refrain buying any Fleetwood PU s with the ABS roof. The new ones are Alumi-tite and are regarded better, but I guess they need to stand the test of time.
 
 Hope this is helpful.

[kathybrj]

 hoppy
There are probably some very nice used Destiny series Colemans out there. Those are the ones with the aluminum roofs, which we had on our 2000 Sedona.

[tlhdoc]

 hoppy
I have a 1999 ten foot box that started sagging just last year.  I thought I had a good roof.  I don t have any idea of how many have sagged, but it is a lot.  If the original owner, of an ABS roof,  has had the roof replaced with the new roof it would be worth looking at.  Good luck on the hunt.[]

[Campntime]

 hoppy
On this board you can search for  coleman abs roof , all forums for past year and find several posts including a series on  coleman abs roofs...worst years? .   Also I have seen several individuals with a very complete run down on the history of the abs roof on their personal websites.  (Sorry I do not remember which ones!)
 
 Maybe some of those folks will come back and post for you.

[Tim5055]

 hoppy
Well, I havn t posted this in a while, so here goes.  Plus I ll updat it for recent events.
 
 Fleetwood Folding Trailers (FFT) using the Coleman name introduced the ABS (plastic) roof in the 1996 model year. During the early years of introduction the ABS roof was included on almost all FFT Pop ups, including some in the Destiny series. If you are looking at a 1996/97 Destiny series, check the roof for type.
 
 FFT manufactured the ABS roofs themselves in their Pennsylvania assembly facility. It was soon found that some roofs began to ?sag? for unknown reasons. The first thought was that the A/C unit caused it and they had dealers retrofit A/C installed units with a metal bar inside the camper to provide additional support. This bar was added as a regular item to ALL pop ups manufactured sometime in 1998 and a retrofit kit was made available for all older units. While the presence of a bar in a pop up does not denote a " new"  roof, the absence may denote and original " pre retrofit"  roof.
 
 They continued having problems and other factors were investigated, such as exposure to heat. It appeared that pop ups in warmer climates experienced a greater number of ?sag? cases than cooler climates. FFT tried different formulations of ABS plastic but roofs continued to sag. Additionally, the problem appeared more in 12 foot box pop ups than in 10 foot boxes.
 
 The final cause (as well as anyone like us can figure out) is that roofs manufactured under certain climatic conditions (temperature and humidity) did not allow the ABS plastic to cure properly. It was these roofs that eventually sagged. The number I hear thrown about is that 10% of the ABS roofs manufactured were bad. I think this number is a little high, but who is to know other than FFT.
 
 Sometine around 1999 ? 2000 FFT finally stopped making the roofs themselves and began buying ABS roofs from an outside vendor. At his point the the sagging problem seems to have lessened to a degree or disappeared. Now those roofs being supplied by the outside vendor began to exhibit other problems, which have been chronicled on the PUT forums.
 
 They include:
 
 Delamination: Part of the ABS plastic delaminates from the core of the roof and a blister forms on the surface.
 
 Bowing of front & back seal: The seal area of the front and back portion of the roof, where it contacts the box in the down (or travel position) bows up sufficiently to allow water penetration during driving in rain. This condition appears to go away after 24 ? 48 hours sitting in the down position. Some believe that the ?shepherds hook? used to push out the bed end canvas pushes up into the seal during use and bends it out of shape. At least 2 differnet styles of seals/gaskets were introduced in an attmpt to correct this problem.
 
 Both of these problems appear to be limited to a small number of roofs.
 
 If you are the original owner of a FFT pop up defective ABS roof you have little to worry about. The ABS roof has a lifetime warranty. As of mid 2003, FFT began enforcing the provision of their warranty regarding shipping.  Per the written warranty (yes, it has always been there, just not enforced) after one year, FFT will supply the part and labor.  The owner must pay shipping for the part to the FFT dealer.  There seems to be some difference between how dealers are handling this as some are still reporting that they have not had to pay shipping after the one year mark.  it is possible that high volume dealers have a " deal"  and/or they are having roofs shipped along with new units on the same truck to reduce shipping costs.
 
 Second and subsequent owners do not have the protection of a warranty, but as has been reported by some people FFT has in the past worked with these owners to find a solution. The most common solution that has posted here is that FFT will supply a new roof to a FFT dealer if the owner will pay shipping and labor for the installation. They will not ship one to an owner for self installation. Parts prices for the roof itself have been posted at between $1,200 and $2,000 with shipping and labor running between $700 and $900.
 
 Starting the 2003 1/2 model year, FFT is phasing the ABS roof out and replacing it with the new AlumiTite Krystal Kote Composite Roofs for the GT and GTEs. When the supply of ABS roofs is depelted warranty replacement roofs will only be the new style.   I have heard reports form owners that a replacement roof was ABS and others have reported getting a new AlumiTite Krystal Kote Composite Roof in place of an ABS roof.  Obviously, there are different roof configurations for different models, so it may take a while until all ABS roofs of all configurations are depleted.
 

[hoppy]

 hoppy
Tim5055,
 
    Thank you for that very comprehensive and in depth reply.
 
      I thought I had read some where that it was about 10 % of the total ABS roof s that wre manufactured.  You confirmed my suspicion.
 
      It will be pretty much be a crap-shoot when I purchase mine, since every model I like is in the   Grand Tour " 12 ft box series.... like the Utah, and the Bayside.
 
     But I will look very closely on how the roof lays down on the box.
 
    Thank you every one  for your input... It will go to good use.
 
    Keep your kindling dry,
 
     Ol  Hoppy.
 
   
 

[mike4947]

 hoppy
Over the past severl months I requestioned the two nearest Fleetwood dealers and several plastics venders I have delt with.
 While the percentage of 10% is accurate according to both dealers, that percentage is of ALL the ABS roofs produced. The percentage of 10 foot roofs is fairly low and correspondingly the percentage of 12 foot roofs is higher. One dealer set it at 17% of 12 footers he s sold, the other at 20%.
 They both said dealers from the south report higher percentages and in their opinion heat/sun has a detrimental effect on ABS.
 
 The plastic venders over the last several years have seen a large drop in their ABS sales to OEM customers in both sheet goods and forming material. Seems Fleetwood was the only one to have troubles with the material.
 
 The Fleetwood dealers both said right now their biggest problem is the " unwritten warranty"  revocation. One dealer has 3 PU s sitting in the back where he had to inform 2 original customers that his statement of a " no cost"  warranty on the roof is no longer in effect and one " second"  owner that the policy of " free roof, you pay the freight and labor"  also has disappeared. One small claims court suit where the customer has emails/snail mail from " coleman"  stating the " unwritten warranty" , I m going to follow that one.
 
 What surprised me for a minute was the fact that the dealers said very few people even knew about the roof problems. Then it dawned on me that most PU ers don t have a resource like here and how many people I saw camping with duct tape on the front seal and/or sweeping water off a sagging roof and thought nothing about it.
 

[kminton]

 hoppy
Hoppy,
 Just a note (and you may know this):  When you start looking at Coleman s with the ABS roof, don t just look at it sitting on the box.  Raise the roof up where the box is not supporting it,  just the lifter arms (?) are supporting it.  That is when you will see the " sag" , according to what I have read.
 
 We bought our Niagara used so we have no warranty with our roof or anything else for that matter.  BUT, with what we saved buying used as compared to new, we can afford to fix the roof at least twice.  
 
 I ve heard/read where if your roof has the metal support bar going across the middle, that was one of their supposed fixes; is that true?  My theory was that bar was supposed to help support the AC (which may be another reason so many of the ABS roofs that sag in the South - the extra weight of the AC - as compared to maybe the North - where they not as many may have the AC.
 
 Kerri

[Papaso]

 hoppy
This ABS roof problem is one of my on-going headaches, at this point I ve just been repairing the hairline cracks with Marine-Tex which works great and the color matches exactly and I even get the texture just right, (if you do this drill a 1/16"  hole at the start and the end of the crack to stop it from continuing). Now I m starting to see the delamination of the outer skin on some spots, I m going to try and inject cyanoacralate (Crazy Glue) and see how it works, I ve used it under some of the hairline cracks and it s been holding well, as far as the sagging mine has sagged very little, almost unnoticible the seal fits nice and tight and I feel lucky that it isn t worse. I do have the crossbrace just at center roof and have pinned one side to eliminate walkout from the supports, the AC unit sits more towards the rear of the roof and I attribute this to maybe the lack of sag. I purchased my camper second hand it was only 14 months old and was like new the original owner used it only twice, I had no idea of the ABS problem and didn t have this great forum to find out beforehand. I ve priced out a new replacement roof and was verbally quoted $2300.00 roof/ freight/ and installation, as long as it remains in the condition it s in I will continue to make my own repairs but when I get tired and it looks bad I ll bite the bullet and go for the new roof. My camper looks like new still and has everything I want. So for now I ll just wait, it will also give some time to see how the new roofs hold up as well.
 Happy Camping

[Tim5055]

 kminton

 

ORIGINAL:  kminton
 I ve heard/read where if your roof has the metal support bar going across the middle, that was one of their supposed fixes; is that true?  
 
 Kerri
 

 
 Kerri,
 
 Yes, it is.  The first thought was that the A/C unit caused the sag and they had dealers retrofit A/C installed units with a metal bar inside the camper to provide additional support. This bar was added as a regular item to ALL pop ups manufactured sometime in 1998 and a retrofit kit was made available for all older units. While the presence of a bar in a pop up does not denote a " new"  roof, the absence may denote and original " pre retrofit"  roof.
 

[hoppy]

 hoppy
Hi Gang,
 
   Hate to say it, but I think I will go out and find me a used  Starcraft or a Palomino again.
 
    My Palomino is 25 years " young" , and really has never given me any problems to speak of. Especially no roof problems.
 
   Now I realize Coleman is heads and shoulders above in overall quality measuring against Palomino, but a possible $ 2,300 roof repair in the future is enough to make anyone a bit weary.  The roof is one of the major components of a camper in my humble opinion.  
 
   I will say that I would have purchased a used Coleman, if the dealer at least offered me a warranty that I could purchase to cover the roof.  But that was not an option.
 
   How do the rest of you original and 2-nd owner s Coleman owners feel about this?
 
   Based upon Coleman s great resale value (and rightly so, I might add),  wouldn t this hurt the resale value and sales potential if consumers were to learn of this defect?
   I know it influnced my decission.  
 
 
     Thanks again for everyone s input.
 
     Hoppy

[Jeffrey]

 hoppy

Now I realize Coleman is heads and shoulders above in overall quality measuring against Palomino.

 

Based upon Coleman s great resale value (and rightly so, I might add),

 Sorry, I really try to stay away from most brand recommending threads.[&:]
 But those two statements are nonsense, Or you wouldn t have any doubts of which brand to buy. Right?[]

[tlhdoc]

 hoppy

 

ORIGINAL:  hoppy
 
 Based upon Coleman s great resale value (and rightly so, I might add),  wouldn t this hurt the resale value and sales potential if consumers were to learn of this defect?
   I know it influnced my decission.  
 
 

 I would have to agree with you.  Fleetwood is causing the resale value to drop on the popups.
 

[mwh710]

 hoppy
In the second year my 99 Utah CP started sagging, got it changed & am crossing fingers.  Will never buy one agin due to the TERRIBLE service by our one & only dealer.  In a city of 1.5 million, only one Coleman dealer, a shame, a terrrible shame.[>:]