ABS Roof Questions

[RuffinIt]

Please let me know if I understand this correctly...

If we are look at a 99 Coleman, it will probably have an ABS roof, right? Can I tell that by looking at it? I know that may sound like a really stupid question, but I am unsure if there is a way to tell by looking.

Also, what does Coleman do about these roofs? I know they won't honor any warranty under a second owner, but did they replace the roofs with a different kind or did they stick another ABS roof on? It wouldn't make sense to put the same roof on, but things don't always make sense!

How long did it take for the ABS roofs to start having problems? If the roof is ok, it is safe to assume that it will be fine? (Yes, I know what they say about assuming anything!! Just want to know how likely it is that it will fail after we get it.)

Also, when did Coleman stop using the ABS roofs?

I know I am asking a ton of questions, but I am unsure about ABS roofs and I don't know enough about them. We like the Niagara. It has everything we are looking for. But I am unsure about the roof. Just trying to do enough research that we won't regret our decision.

Thanks!

~Ann Marie

[tweetie]

A couple years ago someone (I believe Cbrown) posted the following:  "If you check the serial number of your top, and it starts with an "A" you already have a new top.  The serial number is located on the screen door bracket.  Keep in mind that not everyone has a problem with sag.  Of the 600 or so Grand Tour series trailers we've sold here, only about 30 have had the tops replaced.  ...You can also contact Coleman at 800-532-2317.  The seal is a five blade seal that rolls as the top expands and contracts.  If you think it's not sealing, try the "paper" test.  Take a sheet of paper and slide it under the seal.  If it goes all the way to the bed, tighten your top latches a turn or so.  Repeat until the paper is stopped by the seal.  If you can't get the top to seal, or if the latches will seal it, but it's really hard, take it to a dealer and have them supply solutions."

I printed this and we took it with us when we went to purchase our camper--a 2000 Coleman Sea Pine.   I went ahead and included the rest of the post so you would have additional info.  I hope this is helpful.

[birol]

Destiny series of Coleman's did not use the ABS roof if I am not wrong.

As for when they stopped, again if I am not wrong, they came up aith the 2003.5 models which started to use the alumi-tite roofs !

More knowledgeable people will chime in shortly

[campingboaters]

Yes, the Niagra will have an ABS roof. You can tell it's an ABS roof because it has NO seams on the entire roof. From what I understood when we owned our Coleman pop-up was that the larger campers (especially with AC on the roof) had more problems. We had a 10 foot Santa Fe and had some issues with the roof -- large "bubbles" on the side of the roof in the sun and the top not lining up with the bottom when closed. The bubbles would go away when not in extreme heat/sun and never caused any cracks. We had the seal replaced on the roof, but never the roof. After a long weekend of camping, the roof would not line up properly when closed but would get better after a day or so of being closed. We would get water in the front of the camper if we traveled in the rain or washed the camper when the seal wasn't quite right. I read once that someone would seal the front with duct tape after closing up to prevent water from splashing in.  I also read that using a piece of j-channel (a part of house siding) under the seal and over the canvas would reduce this problem altogether.
 
We got rid of the pop-up before we bothered to persue the issue. We moved to a hybrid more for the room than because of any problems with the camper. If I were to get another pop-up, it would be a model in which the galley doesn't fold like the Highlander series. Some older Jaycos have that. It's one less thing to worry about when setting up/breaking down camp. Plus, I would also get a porta-potty, but could live without the shower if I had to.

[tlhdoc]

One quick note.  Coleman stopped making PUs around 1989.  They sold the factory and allowed Fleetwood to use their name for a price.  Fleetwood is no longer allowed to use the Coleman name.

If we are look at a 99 Coleman, it will probably have an ABS roof, right? Can I tell that by looking at it?

Unless it was replaced it will have an ABS roof.  An ABS roof doesn't have any seams.  It is all one piece, domed toward the middle.

Also, what does Coleman do about these roofs? I know they won't honor any warranty under a second owner, but did they replace the roofs with a different kind or did they stick another ABS roof on? It wouldn't make sense to put the same roof on, but things don't always make sense!

Fleetwood used to replace the roof with another ABS roof.  ABS roofs are no longer made so now they replace the roof with an AlumiTite roof.   I had my ABS roof replaced last year.

Also, when did Coleman stop using the ABS roofs?

The 2003.5 trailers had a mix of old ABS roofs and the new AlumiTite roofs.

I know I am asking a ton of questions, but I am unsure about ABS roofs and I don't know enough about them. We like the Niagara. It has everything we are looking for. But I am unsure about the roof. Just trying to do enough research that we won't regret our decision.

Some things to look at to see if the roof is bad are

1.  Does the roof seal hang over the sides of the box of the PU (when closed)?

2.  With the roof raised only a few inches, have someone hold a string at the front and have someone else hold the sting at the back of the roof.  Measure the gap.  If it is 3/4 of an inch or more the roof is going.

3.  Does the roof seal all the way around the PU, or does it gap up in the center of the front and/or back.

4.  Are there any blisters on the ABS roof?

If the roof is bad, and you want the PU, you could have the seller replace the  roof before you get it.  The seller would have to pay the shipping which will be several hundred dollars.  It was $300 for my roof and I only live a few hours from the factory.  If you do this take note of any hardware in the ceiling and make sure it is installed in the new roof.  You can also check with a Fleetwood dealer and see how much it will cost to have the roof replaced.

Good luck.

[jstaddwtr]

You also want to look for "spyder cracks."   This is a seperate but important issue form the sagging.  Ours did not sag but we saw a couple of cracks and then more and more appeared.  It never leaked though.  Our dealer saw the cracks and replaced the roof...a week before the warranty expired.

[SkipP]

Please let me know if I understand this correctly...
 
If we are look at a 99 Coleman, it will probably have an ABS roof, right? Can I tell that by looking at it? I know that may sound like a really stupid question, but I am unsure if there is a way to tell by looking.

The Destiny series, as stated, have an aluminum roof that has a seam running front to back. The ABS roofs came with the Grand Tour and GT Elite series campers. The ABS has a much more pronounced "crown" to it, no seams and is more rounded.
 
 

Also, what does Coleman do about these roofs? I know they won't honor any warranty under a second owner, but did they replace the roofs with a different kind or did they stick another ABS roof on? It wouldn't make sense to put the same roof on, but things don't always make sense!

If they were to replace the roof, it would be with an Alumitite one. There have some issues with this too, the newer roofs don't alway's retrofit well with campers that were originally equipt with the ABS. The cost to replace the roof, from what I understand, is in the $2000 range. At one time Fleetwood was replacing the roofs for second owners, as a goodwill gesture, and only charging for the shipping. I don't know that this is honored any longer though.
 
 

How long did it take for the ABS roofs to start having problems? If the roof is ok, it is safe to assume that it will be fine? (Yes, I know what they say about assuming anything!! Just want to know how likely it is that it will fail after we get it.)

I would think that if the roof were to sag, it would be showing evidence of this by now. The sagging problem with the early ABS roofs was traced back to the weather during the manufacturing process! Engineers found that the roofs made during high-humidity conditions were less stable and more prone to sagging. Fleetwood took over the roof production from a contracted company and produced them in a humidity controlled environment.
 
 

Also, when did Coleman stop using the ABS roofs?

In 2003.5, Fleetwood introduced the Alumitite roof for it's Grand Tour and GT Elite campers. The Destiny campers also still have an aluminum roof but a different design. In '04, Fleetwood dropped the lifetime warranty for their roofs.
 
 

I know I am asking a ton of questions, but I am unsure about ABS roofs and I don't know enough about them. We like the Niagara. It has everything we are looking for. But I am unsure about the roof. Just trying to do enough research that we won't regret our decision.

The Niagara is a very nice camper. I'd be leary of the roof though. If the camper you're looking at is at a dealership, talk to them and see what recourse you'd have if something were to happen. Anything they say, get in writing. If it's from an individual, keep in mind that a repair is pretty costly.
 

Thanks!

Welcome to the group!
 
 

~Ann Marie

[tlhdoc]

At one time Fleetwood was replacing the roofs for second owners, as a goodwill gesture, and only charging for the shipping. I don't know that this is honored any longer though.
 

They used to get free replacement roofs from the company that made them.  The company went out of business so they quit replacing the roofs for free.

[Tim5055]

OK, I havn't posted this ina while.  Here is the entire ABS story as I have been able to put it together.

Fleetwood Folding Trailers (FFT), which was then selling pop ups under the brand name Coleman introduced the ABS (plastic) roof in the 1996 model year. During the early years of introduction the ABS roof was included on almost all Coleman Pop Ups, including some in the Destiny series. So, if you are looking at a 1996/97 Destiny series, check the roof for type.

FFT manufactured the ABS roofs themselves in their Pennsylvania assembly facility. It was soon found that some roofs began to sag for unknown reasons. The first thought was that the A/C unit caused it and they had dealers retrofit the roofs of pop ups equipped with A/C installed units with a metal bar inside the camper to provide additional support. This bar was added as a regular item to ALL pop ups manufactured sometime in 1998 and a retrofit kit was made available for all older units. The absence or presence of a bar in a pop up does not denote a " new" roof.

They continued having problems and other factors were investigated, such as exposure to heat. It appeared that pop ups in warmer climates experienced a greater number of sag cases than cooler climates. FFT tried different formulations of ABS plastic but roofs continued to sag. Additionally, the problem appeared more in 12 foot box pop ups than in 10 foot boxes.

The final cause (as well as anyone can like us can figure out) is that roofs manufactured under certain climatic conditions (temperature and humidity) did not allow the ABS plastic to cure properly. It was these roofs that eventually sagged. The number I hear thrown about is that 10% of the ABS roofs manufactured were bad. I think this number is a little high, but who is to know other than FFT.

Sometine around 1999/2000 Coleman finally stopped making the roofs themselves and began buying ABS roofs from an outside vendor. At his point the the sagging problem seems to have lessened to a degree or disappeared. Now those roofs being supplied by the outside vendor began to exhibit other problems, which have been chronicled on the PUT forums.

They include:

Delamination: Part of the ABS plastic delaminates from the core of the roof and a blister forms on the surface.

Bowing of front & back seal: The seal area of the front and back portion of the roof, where it contacts the box in the down (or travel position) bows up sufficiently to allow water penetration during driving in rain. This condition appears to go away after 24 to 48 hours sitting in the down position. Some believe that the shepherds hook used to push out the bed end canvas pushes up into the seal during use and bends it out of shape. At least 2 differnet styles of seals/gaskets were introduced in an attmpt to correct this problem.

Both of these problems appear to be limited to a small number of roofs.

If you are the original owner of a Coleman pop up defective ABS roof you have little to worry about. The ABS roof has a lifetime warranty. In 2003 FFT began enforcing the letter of the written warranty and stating that after the first year owners must pay for shipping of the warranty roof to the dealer.  

Second and subsequent owners do not have the protection of a warranty. In the past some have reported that FFT seems to be working with these owners to find a solution. The most common solution that has posted here is that FFT will supply a new roof to a FFT dealer if the owner will pay shipping and labor for the installation. They will not ship one to an owner for self installation. Parts prices for the roof itself have been posted at between $1,200 and $2,000 with shipping and labor running between $700 and $900. I have not heard about anyone getting this deal after FFT began enforcing the warranty.

Starting the 2003 1/2 model year, Coleman is phasing the ABS roof out and replacing it with the new AlumiTite Krystal Kote Composite Roofs for the GT and GTEs. It appears that around this time the outside manufacturer of the ABS roofs had gone out of business, so that may have forced FFTs hands.  When the supply of ABS roofs is depelted warranty replacement roofs will only be the new style. I have heard reports form owners that a replacement roof was ABS and others have reported getting a new AlumiTite Krystal Kote Composite Roof in place of an ABS roof. Obviously, there are different roof configurations for different models, so it may have taken a while to deplete all ABS roofs of all configurations.

[SkipP]

Tim, thanks for clearing the roof thing up. I thought it was the other way around, that Fleetwood contracted out the roofs and THEN, after the sag issue came to light, brought it in-house. Oops! Thanks.

[RuffinIt]

Thanks for all the great replys.  We looked at it again today, and it looks nice.  The roof seems fine.  No sag, no gap in the seal.  I did not notice any spider cracks or any bubbles or problems.  The camper was kept in the garage recently, but before that they kept it outside, so it was not garage-kept for its life.  

They said they never had any problems with leaks, and that they have driven it in rainstorms and slept in it in the rain and no problems.  I felt like they were being honest, but I usually believe people until they prove that I should not.  I looked carefully for any smell or evidence of mildew, and did not see any.

A couple years ago someone (I believe Cbrown) posted the following:  "If you check the serial number of your top, and it starts with an "A" you already have a new top.  The serial number is located on the screen door bracket.  ..."

So if the roof has been replaced, should that be a comfort?  Or would it bother you that the initial roof had damage?  This camper did have an A serial number.  I was not sure if that was a good thing, a bad thing, or meaningless.

Oh my!  We are getting closer to purchasing a new-to-us PU!!!

~Ann Marie