RE: Tow Ratings - 75% Rule - Honda Pilot

[4Galvs]

 
I need some advice from the GCWR experts out there!
 
 The trailer in question is a Jayco 12FSO
 GVWR = 3000#
 Tongue Weight = 400# (Estimate)
 
 Honda Pilot (per the manual)
 GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) = 9,700#
 GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) = 5,950#
 
 4500# MAX. Trailer Weight for BOAT TRAILERS.
 
 OHTER TYPES OF TRAILERS
 (There is a sliding scale type of chart for number of occupants, trailer weight,etc.)
 MAX Trailer Weight = 3300#  
 MAX Tongue = 450#
 Includes: 4 Passengers @ 150# Each + 15# Each of cargo (a liitle understated I think)
 
 As a side note:
 " A Weight Distributing Hitch in not recommended for use with your Honda Pilot as an improperly adjusted weight distributing hitch may reduce handling stability and braking performance."
 
 75% Rule of Thumb -
 Which tow rating would you use 3500# or 4500#?
 @ 3000# I would be at 90% of 3300 or only 67% of 4500#
 
 We are presently considering the Pilot as a family/TV.  The engineer in me says that there is probably a decent factor of saftey figured into the 3500# rating.  
 
 Any thoughts?  Any comments would be appricated...
 

[birol]

 4Galvs
Interesting that boat trailers would be 4,500 and the rest 3,300.
 
 Maybe they assume that you will be towing a TT, and not a PU, so they decrease the tow rating to 3,300. Is it easier to tow a boat than a TT (I would think so, boats have sleeker lines, not a wall).
 
 Anyways, I would take the 3,300, 75% of that, 2,475 Lbs. Since 4 passengers are included, that makes this an acceptable figure I guess, especially it the Pilot is rated for 4,500 for a boat trailer.
 
 By going thru the GCWR, you can tow upto 3,750 Lbs, if you fill your Pilot to its GVWR, that gives you even a wider margin at 75& (2812 Lbs), but of course you would be at 100% of your GCWR which is not recomended.
 
 All in all, I think " I"  would tow that Jayco with a Pilot.
 
 What is the wheelbase if Pilot ?
 
 I would not tow ithout a WD hitch,  would that void your warranty ?
 Same for the sway control, I would not tow without it.
 
 And Congratulations on choosing a great SUV, I love them Pilots !!!!
 
 
 Take my advice with a grain of salt, I never towed, never camped.

[mike4947]

 4Galvs
Galvs, first the 4500 pound rating is for boat trailers, and includes the fact that boats go through the air better than blunt front RV trailers. So are you towing a boat? No, so forget it.
 I think also you ll find that on that sliding scale if you total all the weights across each rating will total to the GCWR and the more weight in the TV the less the PU can weigh. So figure what you ll be hauling in the TV (people, ice chests, dogs, firewood, bikes,etc, and use the list to estimate your trailer apx maximum.
 The 75% rule originally was a fudge factor for owners that couldn t or wouldn t do their math and gave them a safety cushion for whatever. Overloading, high altitude.
 Your already started out right, by 1) doing some figuring on what you can tow, IMHO about 40% of people towing have no idea whatever on what they can tow or what they are towing and another 55% know what they can tow but don t know what they are towing. Weigh the PU in traveling condition, tongue and axle and find out and welcome to the elite 5% that can REALLY say they know what their rig weighs and if they re REALLY within the tow limits of the vehicle.
 2) And using the gross weight of the PU in your calculations. If I had a dollar for every time over the years I heard;"  I used the dry weigh, because we don t put anything heavy in the camper"  I d have a new PU in the driveway today.
 
 

[4Galvs]

 4Galvs

I think also you ll find that on that sliding scale if you total all the weights across each rating will total to the GCWR and the more weight in the TV the less the PU can weigh. So figure what you ll be hauling in the TV (people, ice chests, dogs, firewood, bikes,etc, and use the list to estimate your trailer apx maximum.

 Mike,
 
 Interstingly the totals look like this:
 
 4 ppl@ 150# = 600#
 4 cargo @ 15# = 60# (way too low)
 Max Trailer Weigth = 4500#
 Total = 5160#
 
 Curb Weight = 4460# ish (I am not sure about fuel, hitch, etc.)
 
 GCW (Gross Combined Weight) = 9620#
 Rating = 9700#
 
 If I use a MAX Trailer Weight of 3500# that should give me even more wiggle room.
 
 Thanks for the info.
 

[birol]

 4Galvs
Mike4947,
 
 Wouldn t a PU tow a lot easier than a TT, and probably be close to a Boat s towing characteristics ? Maybe not as aerodynamic as a boat, but being almost completely hidden behind the tow vehicle, I would think it would be much easier to tow a PU.
 
 Birol

[mike4947]

 4Galvs
Most likely it would, but having said that the square shape of the front is almost as important as the exposed frontal area. It creates votexes and currents that create near as much " drag"  as having it exposed. The bow of the boat allows the currents to " roll"  along the sides and off the end.
 Back in the early eighties The extended family camping group got into a heated campfire discussion about frontal area/shape/drag. We spent a Saturday with 6 TV s and 11 different towable items. We went as far as taping cloth strips all over the towed items to watch the air flow.
 What we found was exposed areas really cut into the power/fuel milage, but exposed boat style front ends where much more " towable"  than exposed flat front ends. We figured that the lower PU s would be better than the higher boats; but the boats won. Even with the larger area the cleaner airflow made up for larger frontal area. Of course a lot of it was subjective, but it did show some of us what the effects of frontal area could be.  Several large cars that towed boats regularly could not keep highway speeds when hooked to a TT of equal weight.

[EdSwank]

 4Galvs
If you haven t already checked this out, the dry weight is 2235 lbs for that unit in the brochure. The one I just looked at was  2552 lbs w/o AC on the roof. (According to weight tag in cabinet). This unit did have the cassette potty and shower.

[mike4947]

 4Galvs
Ed, I don t know how to tell you this but " DRY WEIGHT"  has been an RV industry joke for years with PU s being especially funny.
 All manufacturers want to show a low weight and large cargo capacity so most everything that s not roof, walls, frame or suspension get labeled as an option, thus doesn t have to be in the " dry weight" . Items like furnace, hot water heater, awning, propane tanks, 3 way fridges, battery, AC units, roof racks, spare tire, those fancy ABS covers for spare tire and propane bottles, AAR s or screen rooms , are not included in the dry weight. Several years ago Jayco had to upgrade their axles and wheels as a good percentage of their PU s were coming off the dealer floor already over gross weight.
 We weighed many trailers over the years and NEVER EVER found one that wasn t over it s " dry weight" , in fact we found quite a few right from the dealers, (older Jayco s and large Colemans especially) over gross weight when " optioned out" .

[Tim5055]

 4Galvs
First of all, I agree with Mike regarding the weights published by the pop up manufacturers - they are a joke.
 
 With that said, I agree with your statement " The engineer in me says that there is probably a decent factor of saftey figured into the 3500# rating" .  I think there is a large safety factor, the manufacturer lawyers would demand it.
 
 Now I also think you are safely under the weight limits.  The key question I have is where are you going to tow?  If most of it will be in the flatlands of mid America I say go for it!  But, if you plan on lots of trips west tot he rockys, you may want more pulling power.
 
 I ahve always looked at the 75% rule as more of a comfort thing rather than a pure safety thing.  That 25% cushion alows you to get up to speed easier on on ramps and helps you over that next hill.  Remember, the higher you are the thinner the air which decreases horsepower.
 
 Consider your planned use for the pop up and judge the towing capacity you will need accordingly.
 
 As an aside, friends of mine who have run body shops for years state the amin reason Honda shys away from " A Weight Distributing Hitch "  is the stress it puts on the unibody construction.

[Ab Diver]

 4Galvs

 

ORIGINAL:  4Galvs
 
 4500# MAX. Trailer Weight for BOAT TRAILERS.
 
 OHTER TYPES OF TRAILERS
 (There is a sliding scale type of chart for number of occupants, trailer weight,etc.)
 MAX Trailer Weight = 3300#  
 MAX Tongue = 450#
 Includes: 4 Passengers @ 150# Each + 15# Each of cargo (a liitle understated I think)
 
 As a side note:
 " A Weight Distributing Hitch in not recommended for use with your Honda Pilot as an improperly adjusted weight distributing hitch may reduce handling stability and braking performance."
 

 Ok, I ll take a SWAG at the difference between boat trailers and other RV trailers. *Most* of the boat trailers I ve seen in this weight range have a much longer " lever bar"  in front of the axle, meaning the axle is father back in the trailer frame. This helps the trailer tow in a straight line, and also gives the tow rig more leverage against trailer sway. Next, the trailer s center of gravity is farther back, due to a relatively light front end of the boat, and the heavier engine located in the back. (this is also why the axle is farther back). What this all means is the tongue weight for a 4500 lbs boat trailer will be quite a bit lighter than the 10-15% recommended for an equivalent weight travel trailer. Why is that important to a Honda Pilot???  Because 1) most boat trailers use surge brakes (no WDH allowed), 2) Honda says not to use a WDH, and 3) 675 lbs. (that s 15% of 4500 lbs.) of " un-distributed"  travel trailer tongue weight would probably put the rear bumper on the ground. []
 

[Gamecock Camper]

 4Galvs
What he/she said... I agree that it is a combination of how the trailers are built and the wind drag on a camper versus a boat.  I d tow the Jayco.   It is a very nicely layed out camper....

[mike4947]

 4Galvs
Now that the fog of senility has cleared for a moment I ve remembered a few things about towing, like most boat trailers do not have 10 -15% tongue, the average is about 6%. So that s another reason why a boat & trailer could have a higher weight for towing than a TT. The tongue weight limit.
 And as for the " large safety factor"  I wouldn t bet the farm on it being that large. I ve seen 2500 pound gross trailers towed at around 2900 pounds and severely deform both the axle and frame of the PU.  With the extra weight all it take is one good run on a dirt road and you ll be buying a new axle. That is after you find the trailer tires all wore out on one edge or with a crazy zigzag wear pattern caused by the deformed axle.
 It was written by someone last summer that the limits were there only to protect the companies against liability and could be ignored. Well if the company says anything over this limit and we could be sued; to me means; anything over this limit might cause something to happen for me to have cause to sue the company.
 Myself I d rather have a nice vacation than a possible lawsuit no matter what the reason.

[4Galvs]

 4Galvs

Now I also think you are safely under the weight limits. The key question I have is where are you going to tow? If most of it will be in the flatlands of mid America I say go for it! But, if you plan on lots of trips west tot he rockys, you may want more pulling power.

 Thanks Tim and all for the insight.  We live in the Midwest - most of our towing, for the near future, will be on the flatlands of the heartland.  I will be curious to see how the Pilot handles 400+ pounds of tongue weight.  
 
 I may be able to contact Honda directly (our other car is a Honda too) and get some more input on the weight distributing issue.  I think I will be OK if I am conservative on the weght of items in the front storage area.  It looks like I may be limited to one bundle of starter firewood as well.  I will let you all know if I here from Honda.
 
 

As an aside, friends of mine who have run body shops for years state the amin reason Honda shys away from " A Weight Distributing Hitch "  is the stress it puts on the unibody construction.

 FYI - The 12FSO has surge brakes!  I can see why Honda would not want to use a WDH, but I did not think of the surge brakes at the time.
 
 $29.95 well spent!
 
 Thanks again.

[EdSwank]

 4Galvs
Mike, thats what I was trying to say. Didn t come out well I guess. My point was never go by the dry weight listed in the brochure. The sticker on the inside cabinet door is the weight of the unit as manufactured (or is supposed to be by law was my understanding), but without any dealer added options or cargo/fluid/batteries, etc.

[mike4947]

 4Galvs
I know what you mean Ed, but last spring when I was searching for a PU (before the DW detoured us into the kitchen from Hell summer, one of my requirememnt was a certified weight on anything I was going to buy as one PU I bought with AC, awning, one propane tank and a group 27 battery as the only options was 56 pounds over gross weight right from the dealers. Not even a spare tire.
 
 So one dealer actually weighed 4 trailers for me right of the transporter, ALL of them were at least 200 pounds heavier than their stickers called for, and the transporter driver was very interested as they were also heavier than his bill of lading by an average of 75 pounds apeice and they get paid by weight. Dealer s mouth hit the pavement. I actually don t think he realized to what extent the manufacturer was fudging the weights.  We weight over a 3 month period many PU s and not once could the dealer (at least 5 dealers that would allow us to weigh the PU s, 2 refused so we walked) come up with the " scale weight"  by using any method they tried.  If it was something like 20-40 pounds I wouldn t have minded but we re talking several hundred pounds and in quite a few cases when " optioned"  over gross weight at the dealer.
 
 Now I may be a fanatic on weighing my trailers, but twice I found I was overloaded. So just how many of the 95% of campers who having never even thought of going to a scale are running over gross weight and blissfully driving around with a problem waiting to happen.