RE: Major Desnitzification

[Nick]

 Hey folks,
 I m considering doing some major mods (DESCHNITZIFYING) on my PU soon.  I currenly have surge breaks on my Jayco Eagle 12 UDK and I want to convert it to electric breaks.  Too many times have I been going down a steep downgrade that I wished I had electric.
 
 I have checked with several shops in the area and the going rate seems to be $500 - $600.  I checked on the price of parts and they are about a few hundred if I did it myself.  I have looked at several walk thru web pages and it does not seem like it would be difficult.  Just not sure if I want to get into a project like this or not.  Has anyone done this themselves?
 
 Thanks for any input.

[AustinBoston]

 Nick

ORIGINAL:  Nick
 
 Hey folks,
 I m considering doing some major mods (Desnitzification) on my PU soon.  I currenly have surge breaks on my Jayco Eagle 12 UDK and I want to convert it to electric breaks.  Too many times have I been going down a steep downgrade that I wished I had electric.

 Hmm...how do you go down the hill?  I would expect surge brakes to work as well (or very close to as well) as electrics.
 
 Are they in good working order?  Fixing and/or adjusting the surge brakes would be a lot easier and cheaper than replacing them with electric.
 
 Remember that you re not supposed to ride the brakes going down hill.
 
 Austin (who s never used surge brakes)

[Nick]

 Nick
Hey Austin,
 You would think they worked better going down hill but they don t.  I had an incedent comming back from a trip this summer going down a steep grade.  I had the TV in low gear but had to mash the breaks to the floor to go around a curve.  Had to pull over several times to let everthing cool down.  I had the breaks on the trailer checked after that and they were in perfect working condition.
 
 So I rather either spend the money to have someone do it or do it myself.

[AustinBoston]

 Nick

ORIGINAL:  Nick
 
 Hey Austin,
 You would think they worked better going down hill but they don t.  I had an incedent comming back from a trip this summer going down a steep grade.  I had the TV in low gear but had to mash the breaks to the floor to go around a curve.  Had to pull over several times to let everthing cool down.  I had the breaks on the trailer checked after that and they were in perfect working condition.
 
 So I rather either spend the money to have someone do it or do it myself.
 

 Does " let everything cool down"  include the surge brakes?  If so, you will have the same problem with electric brakes.
 
 Here is something I wrote (but never finished) a while ago about downhill braking:
 
 Downhill Braking Techniques
 
 Going down significant hills while towing a trailer is a very different kind of towing.  Here are some things to know and do after you get to the top and you need to go down the other side.
 
 The single biggest aspect of going down hill is getting rid of energy.  A tow vehicle and trailer are near perfect mechanisms for turning potential energy (altitude) into kinetic energy (speed).  What is important is having mechanisms for turning that kinetic energy into something else.  The main thing it is changed into is heat.  The friction in brakes heats the drums or rotors.  The friction in transmissions and engines also generates heat.  As long as that heat does not become excessive, going down the hill is as safe as going up.  But that heat can become excessive.
 
 Here are some things to do:
 
 1) Educate yourself about the hills you will be negotiating.  Hills are measured by grade and length.  Grade is measured in percent, such as 4%.  That means for every 100 feet you go forward, you will go down (or up) by 4 feet.  
 
 A 4% grade for two miles goes down as far as an 8% grade for one mile, but they are not the same.  The 8% grade will heat braking components twice as fast as the 4% grade.  There are grades in the east as high as 12% for short distances, and as high as 20% in the west.  If I had to tow up or down a 20% grade for more than 1/8 of a mile, I would find a different route.
 
 If you will be doing a lot of towing in the mountains, get one of the guides on mountain passes.  REI publishes two (Mountain Directory East and Mountain Directory West), Good Sam has one, and I believe AAA does as well.  They can tell you in advance if there are steep grades on the road ahead.  Sometimes they will tell you about other road conditions, such as lack of guardrails or shoulders, or when roads are in open rangeland, meaning there may be livestock on the road.
 
 2) Make sure your trailer has adequate brakes.  What does adequate mean?  The answer is, it depends.  If the trailer is relatively heavy, and your tow vehicle is relatively light, then the trailer brakes need to be very good indeed.  On the other hand, if you have a very small trailer that you tow with a heavy duty pickup, adequate may mean no brakes at all.  With our setup, the van is 1,000 lbs. per wheel and the trailer is 1,600 lbs. per wheel, so I clearly need top quality brakes on the trailer.
 
 Some states require brakes on all trailers over 1,000 lbs.  Others draw the line at 1,500 lbs, and some at 3,000 lbs.  One state (Massachusetts) only requires brakes on trailers over 10,000 lbs!  But what is legal is not necessarily what is safe.
 
 3) Make sure your trailer and tow vehcile brakes are in good condition.  Drums and discs should meet the necesary standards.  Pads and shoes should not be excessively worn.  Fluid levels should be at their ideal level.  If you have surge brakes, don t forget the fluid level on the trailer.
 
 4) Make sure brakes are in proper adjustment.  All passenger vehicle (including pickup truck) front brakes adjust continuoulsy as you drive.  Many, but not all, passenger vehicle rear brakes do as well.  For those that do not, they adjust under special circumstances.  
 
 The most common techniques I have seen for adjusting the rear brakes (for vehicles that do not adjust continuoulsy) are firm braking while backing up, and applying the parking brake.  Find out if your vehicle uses one of these techniques, and do it every time you hook up your trailer.
 
 With electric brakes, the trailer brake or axle manufacturer has a recommended adjustment interval.  Make sure you know the interval and that the necessary mechanical adjustments are made.
 
 Make sure your brake controller is adjusted and working properly.  It is a good idea to test it as soon as you hit the road every time you tow.
 
 5) You ve come to the top of the hill, and there is a brake check area.  Use it!  Particularly if it s been a long climb up the hill, you need to stop and let your transmission cool.  It s just had a workout, and it s going to get another.  Give it 10 minutes or so (with the engine idling) to cool off.  At the same time, make sure the trailer brakes are working.
 
 6) Downshift.  The saying used to be " go down in the same gear you went up in"  but with today s high-rev engines, that is no longer adequate.  Go down one gear lower than you went up.  Be alert to the fact that the downhill side may be steeper than the uphill side and so you may need to downshift further.
 
 7) Don t ride the brakes.  Allow the vehicle to coast for short periods to gain 5-10 MPH, then brake firmly to slow by 5-10 MPH.  Nearly all vehicles today do very little or no braking with the rear axle brakes unless you brake firmly.
 
 Braking firmly also shifts more of the braking on to the trailer brakes.  Trailer brakes (especially surge brakes, but it s also true of electrics) have a threshold below which they won t do much of anything.  By braking firmly, you force some of that stopping energy (heat) onto the trailer brakes.
 
  Slow down.  Braking on a long downhill generates a lot of heat.  It is important for the heat to dissipate as fast as it is generated.  Since there is no easy way to speed cooling of the brake components, it is necessary to slow the heating of the components.  After doing all of the things listed above, there are only two ways to slow heat buildup.  Slow down, or stop.
 
 Austin

[Civil_War_Buff]

 AustinBoston
While I agree in theory with AustinBoston  and I enjoyed this article immensely, I too would swap out my surge brake for Electric in a heartbeat given the option.  I had an 18 ft. Aristocrat travel trailer in the 70 s that had surge, and coming out of Yosemite on Hwy 50, I had " 0"  as in NONE, No brakes by the time I got to bottom of the hill.  I was conservative on the brake useage, I down shifted, but I was white knuckles by the time I reached the bottom.  The single most important element that electric brakes will give you is the ability to use the trailer (manually if necessary) to slow you down from behind, thus taking some of the load off of the TV braking system in " some"  extreme downhill conditions, as well as the ability to control sway (if needed) with just a touch of the manual control.  
 Disclaimer: I make no recommendation or suggest that electric brakes be used in lieu of proper sway control devices.  
 
 This is just my .02 worth, but  I personally think that electric are the only way to go!!
 
 Happy Campin  <><

[Nick]

 Nick
Thanks Larry,
 Thats the point I was trying to get at but could not put it in words like you did.
 

[Red neff Barchetta]

 Nick
Mike,
 I think the switch in brakes is a terrific idea!  If it were me, I would pay a professional to do the work.
 Although me & automotive work are like water & oil, ha!
 If you re confident in your auto knowledge, then go for it.

[AustinBoston]

 Civil_War_Buff

ORIGINAL:  Civil_War_Buff
 While I agree in theory with AustinBoston  and I enjoyed this article immensely, I too would swap out my surge brake for Electric in a heartbeat given the option.  I had an 18 ft. Aristocrat travel trailer in the 70 s that had surge, and coming out of Yosemite on Hwy 50, I had " 0"  as in NONE, No brakes by the time I got to bottom of the hill.

 And you didn t stop or slow down before you reached that condition.
 
 

I was conservative on the brake useage, I down shifted, but I was white knuckles by the time I reached the bottom.

 Why were you white knuckled?  Because you didn t stop when the brakes started showing signs of overheating?  Because you went down too fast in the first place?  This ain t theory.  It s fact.  BTW, did you make sure the trailer brakes were not also overheated?  If not, then you don t know if the switch would make any difference at all.
 
 I m also unsure what you mean by conservative in the brake usage.  I would describe my approach as aggressive (" brake firmly" ), not conservative.
 
 

The single most important element that electric brakes will give you is the ability to use the trailer (manually if necessary) to slow you down from behind, thus taking some of the load off of the TV braking system in " some"  extreme downhill conditions, as well as the ability to control sway (if needed) with just a touch of the manual control.

 I can assure you I would lose my electric trailer brakes long before I would lose van brakes.
 Van=1,000 lbs per wheel, with 4-wheel disks.
 Trailer=1,600 lbs per wheel with two wheel drum brakes.
 
 If the controller is adjusted so that the trailer and tow vehicle stop as a unit (and that is exactly how I have it set up), they will still do so going down hill (with some controllers, you will get more trailer brakes, making the trailer brakes fade sooner).  This means the load on the trailer brakes is 60% more than on the van brakes per brake unit.  If you think the trailer brakes will save you when you lose the TV brakes, think again.
 
 We ve gone down some significant hills (8% for 6 miles, 10% for 4 miles followed by 6% for 5 miles) in the last few years, and have never had a hint of trouble.  That s not because of electric brakes, it s because of taking my time going down the hill.
 
 My caveat is that I ve never used surge brakes, and all else being equal, I would choose electric brakes.  I just haven t seen any evidence that they are enough better to justify replacing them.
 
 Nick: Have you ever had your rig weighed?  You may be over weight for the Explorer.
 
 Austin

[Nick]

 Nick
Have not had it weighed but I m not close to being over.  I also have the V8 Exploder.
 
 I have spoken to others who have surge breaks who experiance the same as I.  In fact my dad was behind me in his rig (Tahoe pulling a 24  old heavy hardside) which had electric breaks and had no problem.

[Ab Diver]

 Nick
Mike, will you be able to utilize the existing tongue (surge type) on the trailer, or need to cut, weld, adapt, or bolt on a standard " fixed"  tongue? Will this change the ball height? (I can t remember if the tongue on a Jayco rides on top of the frame, or flush with it)
 
 Since you are gunna remove the axle anyway, now would be a GREAT time to give the trailer a lift kit, if you wanted to. I ve done it to both my trailers, leaf spring Coleman  and torsion axle Starcraft, so if you d like any info, ping me on the back channel.
 
 Make dang sure you have the trailer SECURELY blocked up before you go wiggling a 100 pound axle underneath it. In addition to the usual locking jack-stands, I also stacked some 6x6 beams underneath the trailer frame, behind the axle position, so *if* the trailer fell off the stands (hey, Calif.. *is* earthquake country[] ) it would fall on the wood instead of me. If possible, hook the trailer to your tow rig while you are doing the swap: it will give a fore/aft lockdown you can t get any other way. Run the tow rig up on some blocks of wood to give you a bit more working room underneath the trailer. Otherwise, when you jack up the back end of the trailer, the tongue will still be at normal height.
 
 Make sure you get a good brake controller. Run, do not walk, away from a time based controller like the Draw-Tite Activator II.  Best bet, get thee to a Tekonsha dealer and purchase for thyself a Prodigy.
 
 (thus endeth our safety sermon for today [] )
 
 Or, have I got it all wrong, and all you need to swap is the stuff from the backing plate outward?
 
 

[Nick]

 Nick
Hey Dave,
 I was waiting for your .02 on this.[]
 
 I do have to repace the tongue and I ll take it to the shop for that.  The guy who does my hitch work (Eyers) said he would do it cheap (cheap as in not much $$$ not cheap parts & work).
 
 As for lifting it, I don t plan on any off roading at this point so probably not.
 
 Thanks for all the tips, and I have heard from several folks to get the Prodigy.

[tlhdoc]

 Nick
I like have electric brakes because you can activate them when you want them on, not just when you are slowing down.[]

[AustinBoston]

 ab diver

ORIGINAL:  ab diver
 Since you are gunna remove the axle anyway,

 I ve never done this, but I would be surprised if axle removal was necessary.
 
 Austin