RE: Question for Coleman owners on GVWR (long)

[Ab Diver]

 
Ok, please bear with me for a (long) moment.
 
 I ve been wondering for some time about the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of certain pop-ups on the market. I ve noticed that the GVWR on my 1998 Bayside is 3250 lbs., the GVWR on a 2000 Bayside is 3250 lbs., the GVWR on a 2002 Bayside is 3450 lbs., and the GVWR of the new 2003 Bayside is 3600 lbs. (from Coleman s web site).
 
 Now, the Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) on my  98 is 2950 lbs., while the GAWR on a new  03 is 3200 lbs. Curiously, the Unloaded Tongue Weight (UTW) on Coleman s Web Site for the  03 Bayside is listed as 150 lbs, with a definition that reads : " Unloaded Tongue Weight (UTW) is the maximum rated weight-carrying capacity of the coupler."  Obviously, this must be a typo, since 150 lbs. is nowhere near the required 10-15% of the trailer s GVWR for recommended safe towing. As far as I know, the Maximum Tongue Weight (MTW) for an  03 Bayside is 400 lbs., IIRC (and somebody please do correct me if I m wrong).
 
 Still with me? Good. So while I was at the Gold Rush Rally, I did some crawling around under different Coleman trailers. My trailer has three leaf springs, and the bottom spring is 12"  long. However, another Coleman I crawled under had four leaf springs, with the bottom spring being 8"  long, sitting under the same 12"  leaf that was on my trailer. Other than that, the leaf spring arrangement seemed to be identical: same length, arch, width, and thickness of each leaf. But the trailer s GVWR was higher than mine. (I don t wanna name names in case this thread gets twisted into a Coleman-bashing slug-fest. Please folks, lets not go there.)
 
 I m wondering if this extra 8"  leaf is where Coleman got the extra weight carrying capacity for the newer trailers. Does it simply spread the load across a wider portion of the third spring?
 
 Now, I m NOT trying to bash Coleman in this post, but I do know that the Tongue Rating (TR) for my trailer << GVWR of 3250 minus GAWR of 2950 equals a TR of 300 lbs.>>  is less that the TR for an  02 trailer << GVWR of 3450 minus GAWR of 3050 equals a TR of 400 lbs.>>, while nothing was done to change the trailer s A-frame. (This was confirmed to me by Coleman on the phone when I was researching adding dual 6V batteries to the tongue of my trailer.) I m just trying to figure out a possible mod for the future: swapping a new set of leaf springs for my old set so I can get some extra carrying capacity on my  98 trailer. As most of you know, these trailers have very little cargo capacity once the weight of factory options, water, and propane tank(s)/battery(s) are figured in. But, they all share the same Dexter 3500 lbs. rated axle. And tires are not a problem either, since they are all running the same Duro 13"  tires. In my case, I m running higher-capacity 14"  tires, so it s a moot point.
 
 I d like to get some info from different PUT Coleman owners of different Coleman trailers as to what their GVWR and GAWR vs. leaf spring arraignment is. Then I can contact Coleman with some relevant numbers regarding my possible mod. Since I m a second owner, I don t have to worry about voiding any warranty. Although any legal questions about exceeding the original GVWR must also be looked into. As for being able to tow a heavier trailer, my truck is more than up to the task.
 
 So, I m asking this from my helpful PUT friends.  Could you look under your trailer, count the number of leaf springs, and measure the length of the top leaf (center of the bolt-hole to the end of the spring), the length of each additional leaf, the arch of the leaf to the frame (distance from axle mounting block to the frame) and the width and thickness of the leaves?
 
  Give these numbers, along with your trailer s year, GVWR, and GAWR. I ll compile them into a year-by-year list and see if there really is a corresponding  change in running gear vs. GVWR. I don t think the actual trailer frames have been reinforced over the last couple years. I m guessing the leaf springs have been the weak link in the GVWR numbers over the last few years. If my theory is correct, and Coleman confirms these numbers, this mod may actually be do-able, and I can gain a couple hundred pounds of cargo capacity.
 
 Many thanks for any help. This is the kind of information gathering that only help from other PUT members can provide. Additionally, any ideas/suggestions on my line of reasoning? Have I missed any obvious points?
 
 Ok, fire away...
 
 

[mike4947]

 Ab Diver
Dave, rather than go through the middle man (Coleman) go right to the source: Dexter axle. They supply the suspension (axles, brakes and srings for the trailers.
 Plus they re very good people to work with and won t try and snow you and will tell you if something is dangerous and what will work and what won t.
 
 
 http://www.dexteraxle.com/
 
 Almost forgot; if you have the data on your tires and the info off your axle tag they ll be able to help you right off the phone first time.

[SCCS]

 Ab Diver
Dave,
 
  Glad to see you posting again.I have done some looking into of the axle system that coleman uses.Yes the axle is from DEXTER AXLE but the leaf springs are colemans part#4735G2208.It had bothered me why would coleman make such a heavy trailer and tell me the GAWR is only 3000 lbs.Their is a 3500 lb capacity axle under the trailer and 3660 lb total capacity tires their,the weak link is the slipper springs at only 3000 lb capacity.I order some DEXTER slipper springs 2000 lb capacity each,the only problem is they are not the same orientation as the coleman ones.The center bolt is about 3/4"  forward and they do not have the same curved bends.Meaning when I put them on the tires were to close to the front main frame about 1/2"  away.One day when I get ambishes I will get new hanger brackets and install it again.Anyway here is the info you are looking for.
 
 3 leafs per slipper spring
 Length of main spring 12 1/2"  from bolt to center bolt.
 2nd spring 18"  long total(END TO END) 3rd spring 12"  long(END TO END)
 Their is 4 1/2"  from axle mounting to the frame.
 All three leafs are .412"  thick and are 1 3/4"  wide.
 1500 lb capacity per spring.
 My axle is overslung.
 
 Hope this will help your research.

[aw738]

 Ab Diver
Number and size of springs MAY not corispond to carrying capacity. They may just have a different spring rate (i.e. stiffer spring). Weight rating should be based on axel not springs. An example is anyone with a half-ton pick up truck. If you increse the amount or replace the stock springs with stiffer ones the trucks axle can only carry a set amount of weight.

[Ab Diver]

 Ab Diver
Mike, thanks for the brain-jog about contacting Dexter. That helped a lot. Talked to a VERY nice lady named Jackie (sp?). And Scott, thanks for crawling under there and getting that info for me. That, together with some other info I ve cobbled together, allowed Jackie and I to figure out what s what. Seems the axles are made by Dexter, but the SLIPPER SPRINGS are not, and are ordered by Fleetwood for each specific type of intended trailer to be mated with the Dexter axles. That s why Dexter s 2000 lbs. rated slipper spring wouldn t fit Scott s trailer, even though it s got a Dexter axle. So the old springs on Scott s trailer (Coleman part number 4735G2208) are rated at 1500 lbs each, or 3000 lbs. Sound familiar?
 
 Ok, after a cupla more rounds of phone tag with Coleman s different customer service departments and my local Coleman dealer (who have been very courteous and helpful as well in solving this puzzle, I might add), I found that the 1750 lbs. rated slipper springs (that s for each spring, or 3500 lbs. for the pair) for the newer 2003 trailers (Coleman part number 4735H22081) will bolt right on my  98 trailer and give me some extra cargo capacity. Price? $92.24 for the pair, plus shipping. I ll put on some new U-bolts as well, just to be on the safe side.
 
 Tires: This mod could allow you to put more weight on the Dexter 3500 lbs. axle than your 13"  Duro tires are rated for. If you do this mod on your older Coleman trailer, DO NOT exceed your tires  weight rating.
 
 Now, the disclaimer: I am the *second* owner of this trailer, and as such, am not protected by a warranty. Coleman did say that any such modification by a *first* owner could void their warranty.
 
 Anyway, it seems I ll be able to gain some cargo capacity for my older trailer after all. While I have no intention of loading it to the hilt, it will be nice to know that " whether or not the water tank is full"  isn t gunna put me over my axle weight rating--- cuz that s exactly what happened on our first trip after buying this trailer while stopped at the local weight station to check if all the weight ratings were within specs. (GCVWR, GVWR-truck, GVWR-trailer, GFAWR, GRAWR, GAWR-trailer, TW) Piece of mind that the new springs will last for many more camping trips is worth something as well. []
 
 And Tony, you made a very valid point. But that was the whole crux of this quandary: why were the same Dexter 3500 lbs. axles on Coleman trailers rated to carry different weights?  The weakest link in any suspension " chain"  will always be the limiting factor on what the whole rig can carry. Kinda like those guys who add stiffer springs or air bags to their 1-ton dually trucks so they can carry those monster 3800 lbs. slide-in campers: no matter how much they beef up their springs, their axle bearings ain t rated to carry the load. (Look in a new 2003 Chevy s glovebox for the " Cargo Weight Rating"  and you ll see what I mean.)
 
 Hope all this info helps anyone considering such a mod to their trailer.

[aw738]

 Ab Diver
You made the comment about putting a 3800lb. slide in camper in a 1 ton truck. From the numbers that I can find the average cargo capacity for this truck in a 2wd configuration is about 5500lbs. A cargo of 3800 shouldn t be a concern unless it adds weight that causes the vehicle to be top heavy.

[Ab Diver]

 aw738

ORIGINAL:  aw738
 
 You made the comment about putting a 3800lb. slide in camper in a 1 ton truck. From the numbers that I can find the average cargo capacity for this truck in a 2wd configuration is about 5500lbs. A cargo of 3800 shouldn t be a concern unless it adds weight that causes the vehicle to be top heavy.
 

 Yep, but I don t think we are talking about the same thing. A brand new, 2003 Chevy Silverado Duramax Crew-cab long-bed Dually 4x4 may have a payload rating of 4941 lbs (the 2003 Silverado Regular cab long-bed 4x4 has a payload of 5559 lbs). The 4x2 version of the same crew-cab dually is 5232 lbs. But, and here s the kicker, as with Coleman tent trailers (Surprise!) the weight of *options"  significantly reduces the *Cargo Weight Rating* (CWR) of the truck. This CWR number is NOT the same as *payload capacity*. The CWR is listed in the glovebox of the Chevy truck, but can t be found in any brochure I ve ever seen, and causes salesman to stammer, stutter, and call for mamma when you point it out to them. Then ask why their big ol  fancy truck with the 6-way adjustable leather seats ain t rated to carry that 3500 lbs (that s *dry weight*, before ading water, propane, food, clothes, etc, etc) 11.5  slide-in camper your lookin  at buying.
 
 Trust me on this one. I m NOT trying to draw a line in the dirt with you. Better yet, go down to your local Chevy Dealer and get a laugh when the salesman is asked what this CWR number means. It s a very eye-opening experience to realize just how many of those trucks out there on the road with the mongo slide-in campers are overweighted. When I ve asked some of these owners about this very issue,  they say they " added air bags"  or " I got s stiffer shocks so s I can carry the weight."  But the truth is, their trucks ain t up to the task.  Lord knows my  97 Chevy 3500 454-powered Crew-cab 4.10 ratio 4x4 isn t, and the newer ones ain t either.  Those big slide-in campers require an F-450 (or Chevy s equivalent) to SAFELY carry them *fully loaded* for camping.
 

[aw738]

 Ab Diver
First I don t want to start an trouble with anyone. I ve never claimed to be any kind of math wiz. If GVWR is not exceded than carring cargo of any kind should be aceptable(people and anything else you want to pack into the vehicle). The exception as you did note is liquids because of shifting in unbaffled containers. One thing you don t want to do is overload either of the axles. Any truck that is loaded will have an undulation but it is something that takes time behind the wheel to get used to.