new TV and ethanol fuel question +

[butterflyfish]

In our quest for a new TV (preferably a pick up) we have run into a subject that we have given little or no thought to... and that is the "flex fuel" engines that run on ethanol or regular gasoline for about $300.00 more.  Since the nearest ethanol station is so far away it wouldn't be worth us going there to fill it up, I think the whole thing is a lot of hype, not to mention all the negative things I've heard about ethanol (that the production of it isn't really good for the environment, the increase in grocery costs, etc...), I think it isn't necessary to pay the extra money for the flex fuel option.  Any thoughts on the subject?  I don't think Americans will be giving up their gas powered vehicles anytime soon...  but then again, one never knows... especially since we will plan on keeping the new TV (if we get one) for a long time...

Or maybe I'll just upgrade the shocks on the minivan and keep the vehicles we have...  :confused:

[jmaddox]

In our quest for a new TV (preferably a pick up) we have run into a subject that we have given little or no thought to... and that is the "flex fuel" engines that run on ethanol or regular gasoline for about $300.00 more.  Since the nearest ethanol station is so far away it wouldn't be worth us going there to fill it up, I think the whole thing is a lot of hype, not to mention all the negative things I've heard about ethanol (that the production of it isn't really good for the environment, the increase in grocery costs, etc...), I think it isn't necessary to pay the extra money for the flex fuel option.  Any thoughts on the subject?  I don't think Americans will be giving up their gas powered vehicles anytime soon...  but then again, one never knows... especially since we will plan on keeping the new TV (if we get one) for a long time...

Or maybe I'll just upgrade the shocks on the minivan and keep the vehicles we have...  :confused:

I think like anything else, it's a matter of personal preference.  We had a Flex Fuel SportTrac and we didn't pay an extra for it.  You could probably talk the dealer out of the extra $300.00.  We lived within 10 miles of a E85 station, so the 30-50 cents per gallon savings were worth it.

I do think that we need to do something to end our reliance on fossil fuels.

I also think that we as Americans should realize that with our SUVs, big trucks, etc. that the situation with gas prices isn't going to get 'better' anytime soon.

I do think that we will see a time when the presence of E85 vehicles will be just as large as regular gas vehicles....You must remember the E85 crowd has a large and powerful lobby that is growing everyday.

[Mike Up]

This is a controversial thread and I've seen these get nasty.
 
From my point of view, Flex Fuel only helps corn farmers and not much else. The fuel economy from E85 is terrible. Because it's terrible, there's many with the opinion that E85 is a bigger polluter because it's benefits get outweighed by it's poor economy negatives. Travel requires so much more E85 to get burned to produce the same miles traveled that it could produce more pollution than regular gas.
 
Also, the cost is terrible as well when economy is factored in. It's cheaper than gas, but more expensive for the miles of travel it produces.
 
Also, E85 is a huge corrosive and special treatments must be used on fuel lines and the such. This technology is so new, we haven't seen it's longevity proved. I feel it won't have longevity as it's corrosive nature will jeopardize the mechanical reliability. Some vehicles even require special oil to combat the corrosive nature and oil break down nature of the E85 as it does get past some of the piston's oil rings.
 
On top of that, some vehicles require that a tank of regular gasoline be used once every month without explanation why. My guess is to try to clean up some of the mess created by E85's corrosive nature.
 
It's also been proven by news sources that we do not have enough corn production in the US to support our own fuel uses should we go completely to E85 (gas alternative) and E95 (diesel alternative) .
 
So basically E85 is a temporary and partial solution for our country's needs that basically only helps out the corn farmers.
 
Ford has stopped producing Flex Fuel engines for it's trucks and I expect more flex fuel engines to be dropped from other makers. Besides, E85 is a hard to find fuel which offers little competition in it's sale.
 
I feel E85 is a worthless cause. However I think multi displacement engines by Dodge and GM are a worthwhile solution. Even hybrids are making strides coming to full size trucks and are now offering towing ability.
 
Just my opinion, have a good one.
 
P.S. Here's a cost breakdown. E85 is roughly 4 mpg less in the city and 5 mpg less on the highway. Lets use 4 mpg as our figure. My gas tank is 22.5 gallons. Since I'm still in break in on my new truck, I'm averaging with highway and city driving, at 16 mpg. I can get 360 miles on one tank. Now divide 360 by 12 mpg and you get 30 gallons. That's 7.5 gallons more needed for the same miles driven. Gas here for 87 octane is $3.30. E85 would need to be 75% of the cost of gas, 30/22.5 = 75% . E85 would need to be $2.475/gallon. It would have to be $.825/gallon cheaper than gas. Here, it's only $.30/gallon cheaper. Simple, it's cost is a lot more than gas overall and it ultimately creates more pollution.

[curryp]

Well said Mike Up!!!!

[austinado16]

Couldn't agree with you more Mike UP!!  Oh, and don't forget all the fuel that's used to grow the corn, pick the corn, transport the corn, and turn the corn into an ineffecient fuel.  Factor all that in.......oh, and the refineries that have to be built, and the stations prepped to sell it, and trucks to haul it.......and it's a big joke.

And American's w/ their SUV's is not even close to the problem "we" have with fuel.  How much of our own crude oil do we sell overseas?  And how much petroleum do we use in just one day in Iraq and Afganistan.....and we've been there how many years?

[batsignal2]

I have a Flex Fuel vehicle and have used ethanol at times.  When regular gas was regular gas (and not "up to 10% ethanol added), I saw a 20% decrease in MPG.  Now with stations that add ethanol to the 87 octane, I see a 17% decrease because of my MPG drop with this new blend.  My basic equation is that if gas is at $3.00, ethanol needs to be under $2.50 to really be worth the money (sort of like Mike's equation).

Other issues you experience:

1. Hard starts.  Ethanol runs much more pure and thus burns quickly.  Since it burns so quick, your vehicle does not warm up as fast.  It also starts much more harder in cold weather.  

2. It also takes longer for your inside heater to heat up the cabin.  It takes me about 5 extra miles to warm up the truck.  

3. The one benefit is that I can drive 20 miles home from work and almost immediately change my oil because the engine is that cool.

4. Since it burns cooler, you need to watch your exhaust.  The vapor does not burn the sediment out of the crank case and muffler system as well, you can clog the system quicker.  

5. I decided I would not want to tow with ethanol.  The choppy starts, etc make me nervous.

I did not purchase the vehicle because of the Flex Fuel option, it just had it.  If I had to purchase another vehicle, I would not go searching for the one with it.

Hope this helps.

Jeff

[butterflyfish]

Just to let y'all know, we got our new TV a 2007 Ford F-150 Crew Cab.  It doesn't have the flex fuel option, which is fine. Has the tow package and has running boards which make it much easier to get my 5'0" self in and out of!

[Mike Up]

Just to let y'all know, we got our new TV a 2007 Ford F-150 Crew Cab. It doesn't have the flex fuel option, which is fine. Has the tow package and has running boards which make it much easier to get my 5'0" self in and out of!

Good thing you got the side steps/running boards. My step mom is about 5'2" and she sprained her ankle trying to get into my old Titan Crew cab fullsize 1/2 ton truck. Right after that, I ran out and purchased side steps.
 
For me, I'm 6' tall, they helped quite a bit getting in and out and even helped washing the top of the truck.
 
Now I have a Sport Trac and while I don't need the running boards, others who get in my truck use them a lot. My older aunts use them, as well as my step mom, and my girlfriends boy.
 
I wasn't going to get running boards this time around but they came in the wheel upgrade package. Now that I have them, and see everyone using them, I'm glad I have them.
 
If it were a truck that would only be used by me, I probably would bypass them but I enjoy driving for others especially on camping trips. Then the running bards seems manitory when I'm using it as a family vehicle and just not a work truck for me.
 
Enjoy the new Truck. If I didn't put 22,000 miles/year on my truck, I would had gone with the F150. Learned my lesson on the Titan, an extra $150/month in gas can be used for so many other things.
 
Have a good one and enjoy the truck.