RE: Newbie question; popup purchasing advice

jawilson · Sep 28, 2003, 07:05 PM

First off... no, I m not trying to start a flame war, just soliciting opinions.[

]

From my *many* hours of research (and lurking) I have come to the realization that there are some rather distinct differences in the options, materials and quality of popups, but I guess that s similar to most high $$ items though. This makes it virtually impossible to do direct comparisons. However, from what I ve been able to gather these are the makes, and how they rate (in alphabetical order):

GOOD: Coleman, Jayco, Rockwood, Starcraft
AVERAGE: Coachman (Viking), Flagstaff, Palomino
NOT GOOD: Aerolite (Dutchman/Thor -- but I think they re getting out of the popup business now)

Did I leave any brand out? Camplite is the only other one I ve been able to find, but the nearest dealer is 500 miles from me so it s not a possibility. Chalet/Aliner are not options either, because it will be 5 of us (me, the wife and 3 daughters; 11, 13 and 15).

Are my thoughts accurate? Do I have them categorized correctly, based upon your own personal experience? What do you own, and how good/bad has it been for you? Other then the infamous Coleman roof problems are there any other " gotchas" about these brands that you re aware of? Note that I will be purchasing new, so the used market -- or problems from 3 years back -- shouldn t be an issue for me.

Thanks for any help you can provide!

mike4947 · Mar 05, 2003, 01:17 AM

jawilsonWell Starcraft and Jayco are owned by the same company, but as of now aren t clones. They ve kept their seperate idenities for the time being.
Now as to Rockwood and Flagstaff they are both owned by Forest River and are clones. Check their websites. The only difference are colors and badging. Rockwood has the Premier, Freedom and Limited lines and Flagstaff has the CLassic, Mac and Limited lines.
As for which one, I ve come to the point where manufacturer doesn t make a difference. I ve owned 5 PU s. 2 used and three new and 4 different manufacturers. IMHO it s more layout and usefulness. All of them will have issues, some minor some major. Buy what you fall in love with. (providing you can tow it[

])

Miller Tyme · Mar 05, 2003, 03:42 AM

jawilsonNot to start a flame war, either, but it depends on what you want in your rig.
JMHO, I can t see spending big bucks on a rig that, basically, you ll only sleep in. What s the sense in spending 12k+ for that?[:@]
When you think about it, camping is about spending time in the outdoors, not inside. I know too many people who buy big rigs(i.e.,5 ers, and TT s) who think they need every convience under the sun.[

]
My opinion, if it means anything, is buy what YOU need or want, and what fits your family.[8D]

got woody? · Mar 05, 2003, 08:37 AM

jawilsoni spent over a year going mad trying to come up with spreadsheets and methods of comparisons. It s a hard task.

The quality of construction in any consumer product these days will be close across multiple manufacturers. Market coditions dictate that if one brand really is inferior, they improve or get out of the business.

Another way to look at it is certain brands target certain price points. Are Kias and Hyundais cheaper than Hondas and Toyotas? You bet. They have staked out a place in the market, and at least in hyundai s case, steadily improved the products they offer over the last 20 years.

The fact is they re all decent cars, some have great brandname loyalty, and in some ways each has advantages.

So, how do you choose?

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but what worked for me was really zeroing in on floorplan and how my family was going to use it. Amenities and gadgets have always appealed to me, and I hate the " I really wish I got (insert option here)" feeling.

An RV show is probably the most helpful way to go. As of last month, I had it narrowed down to the Starcraft Constellation, a Jayco 12FSO and a Coleman Utah CP

The Coleman and the Jayco happened to be parked next to each other, and I was able to see the price difference, and get a feel for what I liked and disliked about each.

Good Luck, and remember, which ever brand you choose, you will always find others here that also think yours is THE BEST beacuse they have the same model!

jawilson · Mar 05, 2003, 12:12 PM

got woody?

QuoteORIGINAL: got woody?
i spent over a year going mad trying to come up with spreadsheets and methods of comparisons. It s a hard task.

Good, so I m not the only[/i] anal person doing this? [

]

QuoteORIGINAL: got woody?
The quality of construction in any consumer product these days will be close across multiple manufacturers. Market coditions dictate that if one brand really is inferior, they improve or get out of the business.

Another way to look at it is certain brands target certain price points. Are Kias and Hyundais cheaper than Hondas and Toyotas? You bet. They have staked out a place in the market, and at least in hyundai s case, steadily improved the products they offer over the last 20 years.

Very true. And that s why I m trying to use others experience, so I don t duplicate the same mistakes. I m gonna make enough of my own.[8D]

QuoteORIGINAL: got woody?
An RV show is probably the most helpful way to go. As of last month, I had it narrowed down to the Starcraft Constellation, a Jayco 12FSO and a Coleman Utah CP

Holy crap! If you re talking about the Starcraft Gemini then those exact[/i] three are on my short list too. Wow, what a coincidence.

I ve actually been to the Coleman and Jayco dealers already, so I have some " seat time" in those.

4campinfoxes · Mar 05, 2003, 04:19 PM

jawilsonSounds like you are narrowing down on the right size camper for your size family. We owned a smaller Jayco before buying the " big rig" Bayside. We wanted more interior room so we wouldn t be tripping over each other or the 2 dogs on a rainy day. Boy do we love the slide-out. We usually use the campground shower facilities so we did not want to waste storage space with a cassette shower/toilet, but I know some people really like that.

For us we felt the Coleman quality was better than our Jayco had been - although we did like that camper as well. Another factor was the fact that we really didn t like the Jayco dealer [: (]. The dealer does make a difference. We also looked at the Coleman Utah but the extra little " bump out" on the Bayside for the galley gives a tad more room and my husband did not like the placement of the indoor stove right by the dinette in the Utah. Even though we don t use the interior stove much he just didn t like that it was so close to where someone might be sitting.

Look at the ones that interest you. Check out the floorplans & see as many different ones as possible. Have you visited an RV show yet? That s a great way to see many different styles, floorplans & lines at one time. Easier to compare that way. Then - go with what seems like it will work best for your family & enjoy every trip to the fullest!

Good Luck & Happy Hunting!

Sharon

Bearnkat · Mar 05, 2003, 05:54 PM

jawilsonIt really comes down to how the camper " feels" when you walk into it. Terry and I did a year s worth of research before we choose the Coleman line. I m a big guy and the Coleman s floor and the door/step, plus the width of the door frame just fit our profile better. We looked at all the manufacturers very closely and found ourselves coming back to the Coleman line. Also you have to consider the dealer and the service after the sale. We have one of the top Coleman dealers in our area and they came highly recommended from Coleman as well as several friends.

Hope this helps muddle the water some or clarify, which ever is the case.

Chuck & Terry

notrailends · Mar 05, 2003, 07:10 PM

jawilsonThere are a lot of good models to choose.But what worked for us was one
with a shower/toilet,when its cold out or raining you don t want to go
to a bath house.But thats us,we are also adding A/C this year.
Good Luck[

]

RamblingWreck · Mar 05, 2003, 09:54 PM

jawilsonJim,

The Starcraft Constellation Gemini was on our short list as well. We were sitting in one when we decided to go with the Centennial.

The Gemini is a very nice floor plan. I had 3 complaints about it:

1) The Constellation series has been discontinued by Starcraft. The Centennial is replacing it. I just prefer to own a model that s currently in production.

2) I was wearing a winter cap and it grazed the ceiling when I stepped inside. I just don t like things close to my face. I have a little clostrophobia.

3) The slideout on the Gemini goes out further than on other makes. And that makes for a more open floor plan. It also requires two stabilizer jacks to support it. If setting up on a sloping site, you may find yourself scrounging for rocks to level the site enough to deploy your stabilizers for the slideout. There are other threads on this site about people doing this.

If you are interested in a Gemini and in the Connecticut area, Redman s still has a Gemini demo unit. It s a hold over, so they will likely price it aggressively.

The Bontrager family own Jayco and purchased controlling interest in Starcrafrt RV. It s true that they are made in separate facilities and have separate engineering staffs. While they are not clones, more and more common components are finding their way into the trailers. For 2004 models, Jayco and Starcraft are using the same lift system (I was told this by a Starcraft factory rep at a show). IMHO, it s a better lift system than Coleman.

Starcraft and Jayco both use 4" mattresses while Coleman has 2" . Read the various " my aching back threads" posted in this forum from Coleman owners. You will see far fewer such complaints from Jayco and Starcraft owners. The Coleman owners have been very creative in coming up with solutions.

A lot of people get joy from putzing around, modifying and improving things. It becomes their project or hobby. It can also be a method for managing cash flow, pay what you can afford for a popup then build it up as you have the money. I am one of those that wants to buy it, be done with it and move on to the next project. I don t know how you feel about the matter so I ll pass along a few shopping suggestions.

While shopping, get on your hands and knees and look at the bottom of the trailer. See any exposed cables? Is the bottom factory under coated?

Look at the underside of the bunk ends. Then go inside and lift up the mattress and look at the bunk end from that prospective. This is the only way you can tell if the bunkend boards are one piece or pieced. Some manufactures add strips to the underside of the bunkend to make it stiffer. Check the top side to see if it was pieced or not.

Go over to the refrigerator cabinet. Does it have a built in fan to exhaust the heat generated by the refrigerator? It makes the refrigerator more efficent. If there is not one there see the fix-it forum on how to de-chintzify.

What is the tenting material made from? Aqualon used in the marine industry is finding its way into popups. Aqualon seems to be more flexible on very cold days, less prone to crack they some of the older materials.

Check out the door. Is it one or two pieces? The one piece style seem to be far and away more popular with users. Does the door frame seem to be attached solidly to the ceiling? I saw too many threads on door repairs for my comfort factor posted by Coleman owners (something about latches).

Having said all that, Coleman is far and away the biggest selling brand. There being more Colemans there is a larger pool of owners. People with complaints or high praise are the most likely to make their thoughts known. Those in between often have the least to say. Coleman having the largest pool of owners, it is only natural that more is written about them.

Being number one also means there are more Coleman dealers nationwide. Potentially, service is more easily available should you break down while traveling.

As you have been blessed with 3 daughters this is something you may want to consider. If you want a slideout dinette model speak to a Starcraft dealer about a privacy curtain for it. While not highly publicized, they can order a privacy curtain for the dinette slideout. There are two options:

1) Have the curtain made to table top height, a person using the dinette for their sleeping quarters can close the curtain for a little privacy.

2) Have the curtain made full length. With table removed and curtain closed you now have a nice changing room.

The downside is where to store the curtain when its not in use.

The thrill of fininshing the selction process and making the purchase is unbelievable. We had to scrape our children off the dealer s show room ceiling with a spatula. We can t wait to take delivery and the weather to warm enough for our maiden voyage.

jawilson · Mar 05, 2003, 11:04 PM

RamblingWreckThat was a very informative post. Thanks for taking so much time to respond.

QuoteORIGINAL: RamblingWreck
1) The Constellation series has been discontinued by Starcraft. The Centennial is replacing it. I just prefer to own a model that s currently in production.

Tell me this isn t so![

] Starcraft was one of the units I was really looking forward to seeing. If the Constellation is being discontinued then I ll have to eliminate them from contention as well. Why? Well, I don t like the look of the Centennial s interior, and even if I did the only one that fits my needs is the 3606. And I can just image how much Starcrafts top-of-the-line model costs in their most expensive series.[

]

QuoteORIGINAL: RamblingWreck
3) The slideout on the Gemini goes out further than on other makes. And that makes for a more open floor plan. It also requires two stabilizer jacks to support it. If setting up on a sloping site, you may find yourself scrounging for rocks to level the site enough to deploy your stabilizers for the slideout. There are other threads on this site about people doing this.

That doesn t sound like fun at all.

QuoteORIGINAL: RamblingWreck
I am one of those that wants to buy it, be done with it and move on to the next project. I don t know how you feel about the matter

The exact same as you do...

QuoteORIGINAL: RamblingWreck
The thrill of fininshing the selction process and making the purchase is unbelievable. We had to scrape our children off the dealer s show room ceiling with a spatula.

Actually, it s becoming a bit frustrating. With having to eliminate certain makes -- because of quality/design/engineering problems -- or no dealers in the area, pricing that s too high, models being discontinued, floorplans that don t work, and... well, you get the idea. I m beginning to wonder if I m ever going to find something that s works from all angles. Sigh...

RamblingWreck · Mar 06, 2003, 07:01 PM

jawilsonMy pleasure. FYI, the Centennial can be ordered with brown wood interior if its the white you object to. I received a quote on a 3606:

They quoted us a 3606 for $10,407.00 with these options:

Convenience package
11 A&E Deluxe Awning
16 M BTU Furnace w/ Electronic ignition
Aluminum Wheels
3 way refrigerator (I thought that was standard)

To that they would add their starter package (a little different from the one with the 3600 as the 3606 has cassette toilet) and our choice of either a screen room, deluxe reclining chair or RVQ.

I didn t try and haggle the price. My children are younger than yours. They sometimes need a little space from on another. New floor plan on 3606 only has one inside seating area. DW and I started thinking about a cold rainy day inside with them and realized it just wouldn t do. We went for the 3600 instead.

jawilson · Mar 07, 2003, 01:11 PM

RamblingWreck

QuoteORIGINAL: RamblingWreck
I didn t try and haggle the price. My children are younger than yours. They sometimes need a little space from on another. New floor plan on 3606 only has one inside seating area. DW and I started thinking about a cold rainy day inside with them and realized it just wouldn t do. We went for the 3600 instead.

Uh oh, I must have been more tired when I posted that then I thought. I just looked at the Starcraft web site and they don t[/i] have anything in the Centennial series that works for me. [

] Why? Dual seating areas. When you mentioned that I said " what s he talking about, the 3606 has a separate coach" . But when I just looked now it doesn t. [:@] Don t know what I was seeing that night.

We decided on a few " must haves" , and they are: front storage trunk, cassette toilet (and maybe a shower), slide-out dinette, 2 seating areas and dual king beds (well, a king and a queen anyway). Since nothing in the new Centennial has all that I have to eliminate Starcraft too. Darn... [

]

BTW; older kids need to be separated sometimes too![

]

TheWallRocks · Mar 07, 2003, 01:21 PM

jawilsonWe were tenters until last Fall and when I walked by someone s Coleman Bayside at a campground I was just struck at how nice it looked..... and I thought the slide out was cool.

That was all it took. A new one was too $$$ for my blood, so we found a 2001 with a furnace, AAR, and a host of other accessories for $7,000...... and it was in mint condition. With 4 kids there seems to be plenty of room, and the AAR is a great place for the old folks and dog to hang out.

We love it!

Even in Michigan, we popped it up a couple weekends ago in the driveway, fired up the furnace and the kids spent the weekend in their little hideout. Living in a colder climate I would never go without the furnace option...... it really extended out camping season and made it comfortable. We ve even taken it out in the snow. Someday they are going to invent an auto-changeover LP regulator that has a hi-pressure output....... you burn the LP in a PU in the winter!

Happy trails!

4Galvs · Mar 07, 2003, 01:42 PM

jawilsonJim,

We spent an entire day in one dealer deciding what we liked. We originally went looking for a used Jayco 10SG (similar to the Sante Fe floorplan) . We ended up with a demo model new Jayco 12FSO.

I did an awful lot of research online prior to actually going to a dealer. At the time, I decided that the Colemans s were a little over priced for my taste. Also, the Jayco dealer we bought from came highly recommended. We were under no pressure at the time of sale. I had numerous discussions via e-mail with our salesman (owner s nephew) prior to and during our purchase process.

I tend to research something to death then buy. I like to decide what we need, then go one step up in $$$ from there. We defenitely over bought for our first camper. I think it was " Oz & Us" who said " buy your second camper first" posted on PUX.

With two small children a furnace was a must. We have made out just fine with just a porta potti for now. I don t think retrofitting a CP would be that tough if needed in the future. The slide out makes the interior seem much more user friendly with small children. We can seat six to eight little ones in the slide out bed for movie time in the rain.

I don t think you can go wrong with any of your " Good" picks listed above. I liked the idea of purchasing our pop up from a family run companyy rather than a large corporation.

RamblingWreck · Mar 07, 2003, 07:30 PM

jawilsonJim,

Your eyes are not playing tricks on you. Starcraft changed the 3606 floor plan. If you get your hands on one of their brochures, you will see the two seating areas. That s the floor plan that was on their website until recently.

[

] Alas, the original, ergonomic 3606 floor plan was not feasable from an engineering stand point. There was a conflict with the suspension system and the slide out dinette. The dinnette had to be moved rearward. To accomodate the dinette s move, the refigerator cabinet and the cp/shower had to change places. With the CP/shower by the door, there was no room for the second seating area.

Like I said before, we were sitting in a Gemini when we decided to go with a Centennial. The Gemini floor plan really is nice. Were it not for my claustrophobia we could have lived with it. I would have gotten the dealer to include some jacks that have some real height for the slideout dinette.

We have ordred an AAR with the 3600 which we will put a port-a-potty in at night. We believe the AAR will afford us additional protection from insects as well as shade the starboard side of the trailer.

We were considering ordering the 3604 with an AAR when the dealer made us an offer on the 3600. He accepted my counter offer and the rest is history.

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