RE: Another tow question ?? !!

[woodthumb]

 
Ok guys... I ve been gettin mixed opinions about this one.  Planning on towing my Coleman Santee ( 2400 lbs loaded )  to Smokey mountains this July.  Tow vehicle is 97 Town n Country with big V 6 and tow package.  Not worried about that, been towing for three years perfectly but this is first trip to the hills.  Pop up has no brakes..... most have told me no problem.. but I just like to hear others advice and experiences. Whatcha think ??  Thanks much.
 
 Woodthumb
 99 Santee
 97 Town n Country

[SactoCampers]

 Woodthumb

ORIGINAL:  Woodthumb
 
 Ok guys... I ve been gettin mixed opinions about this one.  Planning on towing my Coleman Santee ( 2400 lbs loaded )  to Smokey mountains this July.  Tow vehicle is 97 Town n Country with big V 6 and tow package.  Not worried about that, been towing for three years perfectly but this is first trip to the hills.  Pop up has no brakes..... most have told me no problem.. but I just like to hear others advice and experiences. Whatcha think ??  Thanks much.
 
 Woodthumb
 99 Santee
 97 Town n Country
 

 I have a 98 Town & Country with big V6 and tow package. I also have a Popup that weighs 2350 lbs loaded....but with brakes. We have lots of mountains and hills in California. While the tow package includes heavier duty brakes, based on my experience with a similar combination and mountain driving I would still recommend trailer brakes. The engine doesn t provide enough compression in 3rd gear (or any gear at low rpms) to hold speed on steep freeway descents, and second gear above 55 mph has the engine screaming. Additionally, the transmission doesn t drop into first for additional engine braking until 25 mph, so basically in the 55-63 and 26-37 mph range you re tapping your brakes to hold speed  Not a problem with trailer brakes but a different story without them.
 
 You can probably get away without brakes, but if you want to enjoy your trip and not always think about whether you will stop in time or overheat the brakes, I highly recommend them. 2400 lbs is a lot of trailer not to have brakes, especially with a T&C.
 
 I think with the Coleman s adding brakes is an easy upgrade (may cost some $, though).
 

[MtnCamper]

 Woodthumb
If, and that s a big if, I did this, I would drive as far ahead of myself as I could. Pump the brakes if you need braking going downhill, if you boil the brake fluid it s pretty much useless.
 
 Sure you can do it, would I do it, Only if I had to.
 
 Am I going to tell you what to do? Nope.
 
 

[tlhdoc]

 Woodthumb
The fact that you are asking about it says you are worried.  If you are worried getting the brakes added to the trailer will give you piece of mind.  It is not fun to be stressed out when towing.  I think it will be safer also.

[whitestar505]

 Woodthumb
Woodthumb,
 
    Well I can go either way on my answer but, had towed in the Catoctin Mountain
 Park last year with my Coleman Sadona weighting at around 2600 lbs. We had no barkes on the trailer and every time we came down a mountain it looked like we were on fire that is how bad it was. If I had to stop on a dime at 20 MPS forget it. Tried to make a right hand turn off one mountain and took the whole road because I could not slow down the TV. Besides the tranmission  overheated. This was the first time for Mointains and the last for both TV and the Sadona.
 
   On mostly flat ground no problems. You will find that towing with the 97 Town n Country with big V 6 and tow package you will still have problems. If not mistaken the van has a 3.8 which will not be enough hoursepower at 185 HP. Hope all works out. Good Safe Camping.[]

[birol]

 Woodthumb
Time for me to speakthhhhh ..
 
 That s a pretty big PU you have, and minivan s are not really load haulers .....
 
 So, can I beg you to get brakes installed on your PU ?
 
 in case you did not get it : PLEASE HAVE BRAKES INSTALLED !
 
 
 Ok, off the soap box now, you need brakes ......
 
 []

[wynot]

 Woodthumb

Well I can go either way on my answer but, had towed in the Catoctin Mountain
 Park last year with my Coleman Sadona weighting at around 2600 lbs. We had no barkes on the trailer and every time we came down a mountain it looked like we were on fire that is how bad it was. If I had to stop on a dime at 20 MPS forget it. Tried to make a right hand turn off one mountain and took the whole road because I could not slow down the TV. Besides the tranmission overheated. This was the first time for Mointains and the last for both TV and the Sadona.

 And Catoctin is pretty easy stuff (live not too far from it, but further into the mountains).  I have to go through it to get to my Coleman dealer, but with a 3,500 lb Utah behind me.
 
 If you come down a hill with no trailer brakes, and even if you do - it is best to have that transmission shifted down.  3rd, 2d, 1st whatever.  The last thing you want to do is to have to rely on your brakes to control your speed.  Let the engine and transmission do the work for you.
 
 Give you an example with a minivan (Windstar) and one of our favorite campgrounds in West Virginia.  I came to a stop at the top of the grade.  I put the tranny in 1st and let off the brake, didn t touch the gas pedal.  By the time I came to a level spot, I was doing 45 mph in 1st gear.  Never touched the brake, didn t have to.  But I knew I would have brakes if I needed them, which you might not if you use them on grades for speed control.
 
 With no trailer brakes on another popup (1600 lbs) - I stopped 3/4 of the way through a busy intersection, and this was with a great deal of anticipating future stops, I just didn t realize how much momentum I had at 45 mph on the level.
 
 Another time, light rain, the trailer and me went right through a red light and out the other side of the intersection.  This was at 30 mph, and the ABS going nuts trying to stop it from locking up.
 
 GET BRAKES.  I still have one trailer without brakes, but thank God, I am at least towing it with a Tahoe which has quite effective brakes.

[jawilson]

 Woodthumb
I m with the others; you ll probably need trailer brakes (or an updated will []).

[AustinBoston]

 Woodthumb
Note: I have had some negative feedback about this from people who are easily frightened.  If you scare easily, don t read it, have a spouse or another adult read it and tell you what you need to know.  I don t think it is frightening, and it isn t indended to frighten, but to educate.
 
 This is an expanded version of something I posted a while back in a different thread:
 
 Downhill Braking Techniques
 
 Going down significant hills while towing a trailer is a very different kind of towing. Here are some things to know and do before you tow, and after you get to the top and you need to go down the other side.
 
 The single biggest aspect of going down hill is getting rid of energy. A tow vehicle and trailer are near perfect mechanisms for turning potential energy (altitude) into kinetic energy (speed). What is important is having mechanisms for turning that kinetic energy into something else. The main thing it is changed into is heat.  (Small amounts are changed into noise, and modest amounts into wind and turbulence, but those are beyond the control of most drivers.) The friction in brakes heats the drums or rotors. The friction in transmissions and engines also generates heat. As long as that heat does not become excessive, going down the hill is as safe as going up. But the problem is, that heat can become excessive!
 
 Here are some things to do:
 
 1) Educate yourself about the hills you will be negotiating. Hills are measured by grade and length. Grade is measured in percent, such as 4%. That means for every 100 feet you go forward, you will go down (or up) by 4 feet.
 
 A 4% grade for two miles goes down as far as an 8% grade for one mile, but they are not the same. The 8% grade will heat braking components twice as fast as the 4% grade. There are grades in the east as high as 12% for short distances, and as high as 20% in the west. If I had to tow up or down a 20% grade for more than 1/8 of a mile, I would find a different route, period.
 
 If you will be doing a lot of towing in the mountains, get one of the guides on mountain passes. REI publishes two (Mountain Directory East and Mountain Directory West), Good Sam has one, and I believe AAA does as well. They can tell you in advance if there are steep grades on the road ahead. Sometimes they will tell you about other road conditions, such as location of runaway truck ramps, lack of guardrails or shoulders, sharp dropoffs, or when roads are in open rangeland, meaning there may be livestock on the road.
 
 2) Make sure your trailer has adequate brakes. What does adequate mean? The answer is, it depends. If the trailer is relatively heavy, and your tow vehicle is relatively light, then the trailer brakes need to be very good indeed. On the other hand, if you have a very small trailer that you tow with a heavy duty pickup, adequate may mean no brakes at all. With our setup, the van is 1,000 lbs. per wheel and the trailer is 1,600 lbs. per wheel, so I clearly need top quality brakes on the trailer.
 
 Some states require brakes on all trailers over 1,000 lbs. Others draw the line at 1,500 lbs, 2,000 lbs, and some at 3,000 lbs. One state (Massachusetts) only requires brakes on trailers over 10,000 lbs! But what is legal is not necessarily what is safe.
 
 Tow vehicle manufacturers also have limits beyond which you must have brakes.  These limits are often fairly low (as low as 1,500-2,000 lbs.) and should not be exceeded.  This is the weight at which the manufacturer is saying their brakes are not good enough.
 
 3) Make sure your trailer and tow vehcile brakes are in good condition. Drums and discs should meet the necesary standards. Pads and shoes should not be excessively worn. Fluid levels should be at their ideal level. If you have surge brakes, don t forget the fluid level on the trailer.
 
 4) Make sure brakes are in proper adjustment. All passenger vehicle (including pickup truck) front brakes adjust continuoulsy as you drive. Many, but not all, passenger vehicle rear brakes do as well. For those that do not, they adjust under special circumstances.
 
 The most common techniques I have seen for adjusting the rear brakes (for vehicles that do not adjust continuoulsy) are firm braking while backing up, and applying the parking brake. Find out if your vehicle uses one of these techniques, and do it every time you hook up your trailer.
 
 With electric brakes, the trailer brake or axle manufacturer has a recommended adjustment interval. Make sure you know the interval and that the necessary mechanical adjustments are made.
 
 Make sure your brake controller is adjusted and working properly. It is a good idea to test it as soon as you hit the road every time you tow.
 
 5) Reduce cargo or trailer weight.  The amount of energy that needs to be dissipated is directly proportional to the weight of the vehicles being stopped.  If you can reduce that weight (by leaving the canoe behind, or even better, leaving Aunt Bertha and her luggage behind), that reduces the load on the brakes.  If you can take 300 lbs of gear or passengers out of the tow vehicle and trailer, that has the same impact as reducing the trailer weight by 12%.
 
 Are you really going to use all five bicycles and both canoes high in the mountains?  Do you really need three 18"  Dutch ovens and four 20"  cast iron frying pans?  Most of us haul a lot of stuff we never use.  If you are going to the mountains, consider what you can leave behind.  BTW, this will improve performace going up the hill in the first place as well.
 
 6) You ve come to the top of the hill, and there is a brake check area. Use it!  If the hill is steep enough to need a brake check area, it is important to stop.  Particularly if it s been a long climb up the hill, you need to stop and let your transmission cool. It s just had a workout, and it s going to get another. Give it 10 minutes or so (with the engine idling) to cool off. At the same time, make sure the trailer brakes are working.
 
 7) Downshift. The saying used to be " go down in the same gear you went up in"  but with today s high-rev engines, that is no longer adequate. Go down one gear lower than you went up. Be alert to the fact that the downhill side may be steeper than the uphill side and so you may need to downshift further.  Downshifting puts some of the braking energy on the transmission and engine, which have systems that are designed to deal with the heat.  Your engine will not overheat because you are using engine braking, but your transmission can, which is another reason for an auxilliary transmission cooler.
 
  Don t ride the brakes. Allow the vehicle to coast for short periods to gain 5-10 MPH, then brake firmly to slow by 5-10 MPH. Nearly all vehicles today do very little or no braking with the rear axle brakes unless you brake firmly.  By braking firmly, you shift some of the heat off the front brakes onto the rear brakes.
 
 Braking firmly also shifts more of the braking on to the trailer brakes. Trailer brakes (especially surge brakes, but it s also true of electrics) have a threshold below which they won t do much of anything. By braking firmly, you force some of that stopping energy (heat) onto the trailer brakes.
 
 Another benefit of intermittent, firm braking is that you will be more aware of when the brakes start to fade.  Brake fade is a warning sign of a very dangerous overheating condition.  More about that later.
 
 The benefit of coasting is that it allows the engine and transmission to absorb some of the energy (as they rev up).  There is a limit to this.  You don t want to redline your engine or transmission, and some automatic transmissions will upshift if they get far outside their normal operating range.  Also, once the engine RPM s stop increasing, the amount of braking being done by the engine is decreased as well.  This is why you need to use the brakes and the engine.
 
 Basically, use both the brakes and the engine/transmission to control your speed.
 
 9) Slow down. Braking on a long downhill generates a lot of heat. It is important for the heat to dissipate as fast as it is generated. Since there is no easy way to speed up the cooling of the brake components, it is necessary to slow down the heating of the components. After doing all of the things listed above, there are only two ways to slow heat buildup. You have to either slow down or stop.  If you come to a scenic pull-off, it won t do anyone any harm for you to stop for five to ten minutes to let things cool off.
 
 10) Be alert for signs of brakes overheating.  Overheating brakes can:
 * fade to nothing
 * suddenly fail
 * cause tires to burst and/or catch fire
 * cause other suspension components to overheat
 * seize up
 * a few other things I can t remember at the moment.
 
 Signs of brake overheating are:
 * A loss in brake effectiveness
 * A " hot"  or " metallic"  odor
 * Smoke coming from the wheels or behind the trailer or tow vehicle
 * The brake light coming on
 * Sudden " grabbiness"  to the brakes
 * Increased brake pedal travel
 * Decreased brake pedal travel
 * An unusual " soft"  or " spongy"  feeling to the brake pedal
 * An unusual " hardness"  or " stiffness"  to the brake pedal
 
 Whenever any of these things occur, you are driving into a dangerous situation that will only get worse until either: 1) you stop 2) you come to flat or uphill roadway or 3) you can t stop or can t stop in time.  Since #3 is not acceptable, and you have no control over #2, stop as soon as possible when ever you get signs of brake fade.  
 
 If you can t find a place to stop, stop in the road.  Just make sure approaching traffic has something to warn them of your presence.  Also, be aware that at this point, your brakes could be hot enough to start fires, so that is something to watch out for if you pull off into tall, dry grass, etc.
 
 11) OK, you pushed your luck, and now you are in trouble.  The brakes won t stop the rig, and appear to be gone.  Now what?  Do the first four of these as fast as you can:
 * Pump the brakes.  If the brake fluid has boiled or is leaking, this may give you some temporary brakes.
 * If possible, downshift more.  A damaged engine, transmission, or clutch is better than a high speed crash.
 * Apply the emergency brake as hard as possible.  There might be something there that will help you stop.  The emergency brakes uses cables, so is not affected by the loss of brake fluid.  Be aware, though, that on it s best day, the emergency brake will give you about 1/4 of what the regular brakes will.  Even if it works fine, that s not much.
 * Apply the trailer brakes manually.  Move the controller s lever all the way over and leave it there.  Be aware that this, like the emergency brakes, isn t much, but when you ve lost it, a little is better than nothing.
 
 It shouldn t take more than five seconds to do those.  Next, try:
 
 * Use that runaway truck ramp.  Although they are designed for big rigs, I believe they would work for a pickup hauling a popup.  I would use one, but expect some cosmetic damage to the trailer or van as a result.
 * Turn uphill.  This is very rarely an option, but you can t coast uphill very far, so that will stop you.
 * Sideswipe something.  This is an extreme last resort move to be used only in life-or death situations.  Sideswiping a guardrail, phone pole, or parked vehicle is a move that could still kill, but is far less dangerous than slamming into the guardrail, phone pole, or parked car.  You could loose all control, particularly if the air bags go off.  You could end up in the face of oncoming traffic.  You could injure or kill people on the side of the road.  Don t get into that situation to begin with.
 
 
 Austin

[midwest_camper]

 Woodthumb
Just my two cents worth... We have 99 Jayco Eagle which weighs in at about a ton. It did not have breaks when we bought it new.  Our first tow vehicle was an Oldsmobile Cutlass wagon with the big V6. Pulling was not great but it did work. Breaking was downright scarry if you had to apply the brakes hard at all. Next we got rid of the wagon a bought a 2000 Astro with the pulling capacity of 3 tons. Pulls the camper great, like it s not even behind you. The Astro has the towing package. Breaking was much better but in one semi-emergency I could definately feel the popup pushing me a lot more than I liked. Added electric brakes this year before going to Floriday in March. Bang myself on the head wondering why I waited so long to add them.