RE: Advice on Popup Purchase

[PopupSgt]

 
Greetings all
 I m posing this question for reliable information to make the decision for the family.  I am looking at at 96 Coleman Niagra with HW, AC, Heat, Toilet, Dual Propane & powerlift system for $3500; I m a little uneasy due to the problems with the one piece abs roofs but haven t looked into the inside of the unit yet.   The other idea is a Rockwood 2516G that is a 2K model for $6700 with the slide dinette, a/c, toilet, hw & heat.  We have 6 in the family counting the 50# dog, we have considered new also but wanted to see what you guys might think.  Thanks for any assistance.
 
 Air Force Sgt
 

[JemJen24]

 coreyr
I m not familiar with either of those models, but we purchased our brand new 2003 Coleman Yuma for approx. $6000 and that included taxes, title, etc.  Plus the dealer threw in a free screen room and choks.
 
 We had an opportunity to buy a pop up twice the size of the one we have now (used), but declined since Coleman does not transfer their warranties.  We had to go NEW to get a warranty, and that was important to us.
 
 The Yuma sleeps my hubby, me, and two dogs (75 and 45 lbs) comfortably.  We can actually sleep 6 in it, but it would be crammed!  It s a small model and I wouldn t recommend it for a large family with kids.  
 
 I was also sent this link today...I thought these were neat....like a HARDSHELL pop up...take a look....
 
 www.trailmanor.com

[wahoonc]

 coreyr
I hate to say it but I would avoid the Coleman unless somebody can prove to you it has a late model roof on it. We own a Niagara and love it, but if you don t have the warranty and the roof goes bad or is bad you are looking at over $2500 to replace it. It may be more now they have gone to the Alumatite roof. My dealer hasn t/won t give me a replacement cost on that style of roof.[: (] I am not that familar with the Rockwood but people that own them seem to like them...and they don t have the dreaded ABS roof. I actually tried to convince my dealer to sell me the cheaper style aluminum roof for my Niagara...they claimed it wouldn t fit?
 
 Goto www.nadaguides.com and check out the price on the Rockwood and see what you come up with.
 
 Aaron[]

[Tim5055]

 coreyr
You have already identified the big issue, the roof.
 
 A couple of things to think about -
 
 [ul]
 

• I would think that a 96 would have sagged already if it was going to do so
• Coleman has been willing to work with second owners who have roof problems.  Owner pays freight and labor to replace, Coleman provides the roof.  But, the last report of this deal was when ABS roofs were still available
[/ul]
 
 You don t say if this is a private sale or from a dealer.  If a dealer, and they are an authorized Coleman dealer, they may be willing to warrantee it themselves for a limited time 6 - 12 months.
 
 I m partial to Coleman, but there are other excellent brands out there.
 
 What ever you decide to buy, give it a good inspection.  Check out [link=

http://www.title-3.com/BuyUsed.htm]Purchasing a Used Pop-Up-Camper[/link]

[tlhdoc]

 coreyr
I would agree with Tim about the roof.  The Niagara is a very nice trailer, but I am not familiar with the Rockwood.  If the roof is good on it, you should not be afraid of it.

[cb]

 coreyr
I know NOTHING about Coleman..... We were total newbies when we bought a 95 Rockwood new from a dealer who was going out of business.  The deal was too good to pass up and we hauled out the checkbook.  The worst thing was the (Norcold) refrigerator.  We went through 4 in 5 years.  (Warrantee covered)  The best thing was the response from the factory whenever we had any problems.  We were even on first-name basis with a factory guy while we were trying to figure out a strange noise that developed on a long trip.  We fully intended to keep the thing for a couple years and then " upgrade" .  But, we haven t seen anything else that comes close to offering the space, light, ease of towing and storing, etc., etc.  In other words, if they still make Rockwoods as well as they did in 1995, we would highly recommend them.  Good luck.

[Y-Guy]

 coreyr
We really liked our Niagara, it was a great camper and we enjoyed it.  Tim s comments on the roof issue are right on.  If you are getting from a dealer consider asking for a new roof as part of the deal or a crossbar at least.  Reality is if its been stored outside the sagging would have shown by now I would think.  I don t know the floorplan of the 96 Niagara or the Rockwood you are considering.  You can probably find them on-line to compare.  The Rockwoods have better mattresses as I recall.  Have you checked the values on nada.com ? both should be listed and will give you a good idea of the value.
 
 Hope the responses help you in some way, and enjoy making your own decision.

[whitestar505]

 Y-Guy
Sgt,
 I agree with all that has been mentioned above. I have a New Coleman myself with the new roof design. So far so  good. What ever you do check out the roof before writing that check. I agree with tim, but I am also partial to Caleman also.
 Good luck in your quest.[]

[TheWallRocks]

 coreyr
I think it was in 2000 or 2001 that they added the roof stabilizer bar.  I wonder if you could just buy the bar and install it yourself to end your roof concerns?  It looks no more difficult to install the bar then a bike rack cross bar, so it might take you 30-45 minutes to do the job.  We have the stabilizer on our Bayside, and the roof is fine..... and it sits outside all winter with a couple feet of snow on it.  It also has 4 Yakima cross bars, 4 Yakima Lockjaw bike racks, carries 4 bikes and a kiteboard........  no problems yet.
 
 That sounds like a great deal for a Niagra.... it has lots of space and all the toys.

[wahoonc]

 coreyr
If the roof is going to go the stabilizer bar isn t going to stop most of the problems associated with the ABS roof. I have seen roofs with 2 bars installed that were so bowed they looked like a canoe. Admittedly it was an extreme case. The bar won t stop the delamination or the blistering of the ABS roof which is another set of issues that has to be dealt with.There are also cases existing of where the sides of the roof bowed out, again the bar is useless in this situation. I think the bar installation was a form of damage control by Coleman/Fleetwood in a misguided attempt to find a place for the blame on something other than poor QC and less than stellar engineering. Any plastics engineer can tell you how unstable ABS is and how hard it is to work with. It is a wonderful material when used correctly in a proper application...like sewer pipe![:@] If the roof is in excellent condition and fits properly it may be a good deal, but I wouldn t want to buy something that has a know history of problems unless I was POSITIVE! that the problems had been dealt with. JMO
 
 Aaron[]
 
 

[Tim5055]

 coreyr
I agree with wahoonc in the fact that the bar will not stop it if it is going to sag.  But, being a 96 I would not worry about the delamination problem, that appeared after Coleman began buying roofs from an outside vendor sometime after 2000.
 
 The bar was added during the 1998 model year.
 
 I guess this would be a good time for me to repeat my normal history of the ABS roof:
 
 Coleman introduced the ABS (plastic) roof in the 1996 model year. During the early years of introduction the ABS roof was included on almost all Coleman Pop ups, including some in the Destiny series. If you are looking at a 1996/97 Destiny series, check the roof for type.
 
 Coleman manufactured the ABS roofs themselves in their Pennsylvania assembly facility. It was soon found that some roofs began to ?sag? for unknown reasons. The first thought was that the A/C unit caused it and they had dealers retrofit A/C installed units with a metal bar inside the camper to provide additional support. This bar was added as a regular item to ALL pop ups manufactured sometime in 1998 and a retrofit kit was made available for all older units. The absence or presence of a bar in a pop up does not denote a " new"  roof.
 
 They continued having problems and other factors were investigated, such as exposure to heat. It appeared that pop ups in warmer climates experienced a greater number of ?sag? cases than cooler climates. Coleman tried different formulations of ABS plastic but roofs continued to sag. Additionally, the problem appeared more in 12 foot box pop ups than in 10 foot boxes.
 
 The final cause (as well as anyone like us can figure out) is that roofs manufactured under certain climatic conditions (temperature and humidity) did not allow the ABS plastic to cure properly. It was these roofs that eventually sagged. The number I hear thrown about is that 10% of the ABS roofs manufactured were bad. I think this number is a little high, but who is to know the exact number other than Coleman.
 
 Sometine around 1999 ? 2000 Coleman finally stopped making the roofs themselves and began buying ABS roofs from an outside vendor. At his point the the sagging problem seems to have lessened to a great degree or disappeared. Now those roofs being supplied by the outside vendor began to exhibit other problems, which have been chronicled on the PUT forums.
 
 They include:
 
 Delamination: Part of the ABS plastic delaminates from the core of the roof and a blister forms on the surface.
 
 Bowing of front & back seal: The seal area of the front and back portion of the roof, where it contacts the box in the down (or travel position) bows up sufficiently to allow water penetration during driving in rain. This condition appears to go away after 24 ? 48 hours sitting in the down position. Some believe that the ?shepherds hook? used to push out the bed end canvas pushes up into the seal during use and bends it out of shape. At least 2 differnet styles of seals/gaskets were introduced in an attmpt to correct this problem.
 
 Both of these problems appear to be limited to a small number of roofs.
 
 If you are the original owner of a Coleman pop up defective ABS roof you have nothing to worry about. The ABS roof has a lifetime warranty. Second and subsequent owners do not have the protection of a warranty, but as has been reported by some people Coleman seems to be working with these owners to find a solution. The most common solution that has posted here is that Coleman will supply a new roof to a Coleman dealer if the owner will pay shipping and labor for the installation. They will not ship one to an owner for self installation. Parts prices for the roof itself have been posted at between $1,200 and $2,000 with shipping and labor running between $700 and $900.
 
 Starting the 2003 1/2 model year, Coleman is phasing the ABS roof out and replacing it with the new AlumiTite Krystal Kote Composite Roofs for the GT and GTEs. When the supply of ABS roofs is depelted warranty replacement roofs will only be the new style.

[SactoCampers]

 coreyr

If you are the original owner of a Coleman pop up defective ABS roof you have nothing to worry about. The ABS roof has a lifetime warranty. Second and subsequent owners do not have the protection of a warranty, but as has been reported by some people Coleman seems to be working with these owners to find a solution. The most common solution that has posted here is that Coleman will supply a new roof to a Coleman dealer if the owner will pay shipping and labor for the installation. They will not ship one to an owner for self installation. Parts prices for the roof itself have been posted at between $1,200 and $2,000 with shipping and labor running between $700 and $900.

 According to a thread on PUX where there was posted a letter of response from Kevin Carmean of Coleman regarding this issue, Coleman is not working with original owners with regards to the shipping of new roofs after the first year (Refer to the " NOT a happy Coleman owner"  thread at PUX). This leads me to believe, if you re a second hand owner and need a new roof, you will pay for the roof, shipping, and labor unless you can negotiate otherwise with your dealer or Coleman directly.
 
 If I were in your position, I would go with the Rockwood simply due to the Niagara roof issue. I would avoid that possibility entirely. See if you can negotiate a lower price on the Rockwood.

[Gamecock Camper]

 coreyr
I have the Rockwood camper that is very similar in the floorplan you are looking at.  I have the Rockwood 2576G.  It has all the options I have ever heard of in a pop-up camper (ie. - extra large slideout dinette, two king sized bunk-ends with innerspring mattresses, couch, galley with a sink and 3 burner stove that slides out to the outside, front storage trunk with a drawer that slides out either side of the front trunk, built-in shower and cassette pottie, outside shower, AC, propane Heater, water heater, water pump, fantastic vent fan, 3 way refrigerator, etc....).  This is my second camper and I am very pleased with the Rockwood quality and how this camper tows.  It has lots of room for our family of 5 with our good old camping golden retriever " Miss Molly"  (aka - Molly the Wonder dog).  
 
 Mine also has the Carefree awning.  I just can t say enough about how easy it is to set-up.... especially compared to the very difficult to set-up awning that came with our first camper (a Jayco that was a very good camper also)....  I wish you luck in your decision.  Coleman has lots of good campers out there, even some of the ABS roofed campers are ok, but I would not hesitate in any way from giving the Rockwood a thumbs up.    If you have any questions you can e-mail me or ask here.  Good luck.

[GeneF]

 coreyr
When I purchased my 98 Mesa used, I did not discover that it had roof sag until I drove it home in the rain.  Lots of fun leaving it open to try and dry out the sofa.
 
 Dealer installed the cross brace but it did not solve the problem.  Camper still leaked.
 
 Even though I was the second owner, the dealer worked for me and got Coleman to replace the roof with a 2000 ABS roof.  I have not had any problems with the new roof.
 
 If you have any doubts about the condition of the roof, I would stay away from the coleman.  
 
 I didn t really learn about roof sag until I joined this board about 2 days before I took ownership of the Mesa.  I discussed this problem with the dealer and he assured me the Mesa did not have roof sag.  I am just glad that he did take care of the problem and it didn t cost me a dime.