RE: New Coleman Taos... GFCI issue

George · Sep 28, 2003, 07:05 PM

Two nights ago we just purchased a new Coleman Taos. Last night I returned it for warranty service.

I tested the three receptacles with our GFCI tester we purchased at home depot a few years ago. (It s one of those three-light circuit testers with a little push button to generate a ground fault.) Normally, you push the button and on a GFCI protected circuit, the GFCI trips... on a non-GFCI circuit, the two lights that show the circuit is wired correctly remain lit.

So I plug this in and get the two lights showing the circuit is wired correctly... then I press the GFCI button and one light goes off and the red light lights indicating a " Hot/Neutral" reversal... no tripping of the circuit. I try the tester on the Kitchen and Garage GFCI circuits and all is well. So with the Taos being only a day old, it s the dealer s/Coleman s problem. I was just wondering if anyone out there might know what would cause this.

Thanx

-George

Tim5055 · Jun 05, 2003, 07:55 PM

georgerFrom yur description, I assume that when they wired the GFCI in the popup they reversed the hot and neutral wires. Actually, it is very easy to reverse these two wires.

Remember, the GFCI protection is not being provided by one of hte breakers, but by the first outlet in the chain which is a GFCI outlet.

AustinBoston · Jun 06, 2003, 08:15 AM

tim5055

QuoteORIGINAL: tim5055

From yur description, I assume that when they wired the GFCI in the popup they reversed the hot and neutral wires. Actually, it is very easy to reverse these two wires.

Remember, the GFCI protection is not being provided by one of hte breakers, but by the first outlet in the chain which is a GFCI outlet.

If this were true, he wouldn t have received a normal reading before tripping the GFCI. My guess is that the GFCI itself is seriously defective.

Austin

Tim5055 · Jun 07, 2003, 06:11 AM

georgerWhile I agree there may be something wrong with the tester, I still say there may be something wrong with the wiring.

The tester in question has no source of power, it s only power source to illuminate any light is the socket it is plugged into.

If any lights are illuminated after the button is tripped, either the wiring/GFCI is bad or the tester is not really creating the high impedance bridge between power and ground that it should be.

At this point I would use a meter to test the basic wiring of the outlet.

George · Jun 07, 2003, 06:56 PM

georgerThanks for the suggestions, I went through these same thought processes before deciding that since I only had the PU for an hour or two, I would take it back and let the dealer figure it out. (Of course, it s been sitting on their lot for a few days without them looking at it.)

Anyway, my tester is OK... it works properly with all my other GFCI circuits (2 in Kitchen, 2 in Garage and 1 in each bathroom).

I would agree that it could be the wiring or in the GFCI breaker itself... but here s where I get confused. The Taos has two breakers - a 15 amp that feeds the GFCI receptacle and the outdoor receptacle nearby and a 20 amp that feeds the receptacle near the other bunk. Why would both circuits show the hot/neutral reversal when the GFCI button is pushed? Does the 15 amp GFCI somehow protect the 20 amp circuit. Is there any chance the problem is in or related to the converter unit? (Please excuse if these are stupid questions... I ve never had any PU, RV, or marine thingy before.)

Do any of you have one of these testers? Does it work on your PU? I don t want to discount the possibility that these testers aren t valid on a RV because of ... well whatever... though I would think that any device that allows a path for hot/ground conduction should trip a GFCI.

Thanks again for all your CPU time.

-George

Tim5055 · Jun 07, 2003, 07:55 PM

georgerWell I have a limited knowledge of electrical, but I am always willing to defer to anyone who feels they have more knowledge.

The neutral leg is shared between both circuits, so yes in a reversal situation it could affect (or is it effect???) both circuits. Additionally, before the breakers the 110v AC is supplied by a single cord (that big black 30a one), so there cold be a problem where it is connected that would reverse both circuits.

The 20a circuit should not get GFCI protection from the 15a circuit.

No problem with the time, we are all a big family here[

]

AustinBoston · Jun 09, 2003, 09:39 AM

georgerThe 120v wiring in your pop-up should not be significantly different from ordinary house wiring. If your tester works in your house, it should work in your pop-up.

I would be alarmed that tripping a GFCI on one circuit has any impact on another circuit. That should not happen.

Question: Is the power supply for the Taos properly grounded? (i.e. the outlet is grounded and no adapters or only grounded adaptors are used)?

Be prepared to demonstrate the problem to the dealer.

Austin

Campaholics · Jun 09, 2003, 06:03 PM

georgerOne other place to check with the GFCI tester is the outlet that the PU is plugged in. If that functions normally, then is the 30A black cord wired to the system correctly? Then are the GFCI outlets wired correctly to the breakers.

You didn t say that both outlets are GFCI. I believe that the same section of the electric code that requires the GFCI in the PU will require all outlets to be protected. The usual way is the first outlet is the GFCI, getting power on the Line side, and the others are wired to the Load side.

The outlets on the 15A and 20A breaker should not share a neutral. Their common point should be the neutral buss (in this case a terminal strip) which also has the neutral from the 30A cord.

I would have thought (there I go again getting logical) that the 20A breaker would be reserved for A/C if and when. The 15A would be used for the outlets and DC converter. In my case, the interior outlet is on the 20A breaker.

In short the factory has a lot of ways to screw up the 120V wiring. Austin might be right, it could be a deffective GFCI, but I d go over the wiring first.

On a brand new PU, definitely something that the dealer should figure out and fix. Here s hoping you can add to the list of look at the great job my dealer did.

Good luck,
Bob

George · Jun 09, 2003, 06:43 PM

georgerThanks... I share these thoughts as well... especially the one about the dealer fixing it. I received a call saying that they " tested" the GFCI and it is working correctly and I can pick up the PU. As you might guess, that s not good enough for me so I have to take a half-day off from work tomorrow and go down with my tester. (I m thinking of buying another tester just so they can t say it was my tester - they re only $10 - $12.)

Is there any chance this result occurred because it was raining when i did the test? In other words, the air was damp... the shore line was laying on a wet driveway, etc? Or could it be that whatever was shaken loose on the trip home has shaken back into place on the trip back there?

Thanks for all you re thoughts. Obviously, I ll post again tomorrow evening.

-George

wahoonc · Jun 09, 2003, 07:23 PM

georgerGeorge,
I got $5 that says they " tested" the GFCI by using the test button on the plug itself, which will not show if there is a miswired or common neutral. When I start getting results like you have, I start tracking wiring. Especially given Fleetwoods lack of attention to detail, and the additional lack of detail paid by most dealers. I was having a problem with the water pump on my Niagara, yep it was miswired from the factory. I mean come on guys we only gave you two wires to deal with how hard can this be?[:@]
I would defintely show up with your tester and show them what you did to test it.

As a side note, we rent a lot of manlifts,that have 120 volt plugs on the manbaskets, I always check them out with a tester before turning the guys loose with them, I would say somewhere between 70-80% of the time I have to re wire them due to incorrect wiring or where the wires were never hooked up.[>:]

If you checked your plug at the house and it was correct then I can t see there being anything other than something mis wired on the trailer. The other thing that Fleetwood does that is a little screwey is use the black side of the 12V for the hot lead which can get a little confusing if you aren t paying attention.

Aaron[

]

George · Jun 09, 2003, 09:32 PM

georgerShe assured me that the technician used an " external tester" ... Of couse that could mean that he stood outside the PU while pushing the test button.

George · Jun 10, 2003, 09:26 PM

GeorgeYou won t believe what the cause was...

I went to the dealer this afternoon to take my tester and show them what the problem was. It was set up outside one of the service bays and plugged in. I showed the techncian my tester - he had used a circuit tester without the GFCI button, but anyway, I plugged in my tester hit the button and...

Well... the GFCI tripped as it was supposed to.

When getting ready to leave home for the dealer, on a hunch I decided to pack the parts from the PU " starter kit" they supplied. I don t know why, but anyway I remembered that the 30A to 15A adapter was in the kit (I had used the adapter while at home the first night). So I looked at the plug and sure enough the Taos was plugged into the dealer s 30A outlet.

I asked him if I could try the adapter on a 15 amp circuit. With that in place I tried the tester and it did not trip... same two lights showing a hot/neutral reversal when the GFCI button was pressed as I had seen at home. When we looked into the adapter - the one s supplied with the startup kit are a bit... well cheap - we could see that the ground " hole" on the receiver part was spread a bit and loose.

We replaced the adapter with a better one and the problem dissappeared!

Moral of the story... If you don t have a good ground connection, you loose your GFI protection - even though the button test inside your PU may still work.

We will be buying another tester to pack with us... They re available at Home Depot (Sperry model GFI302A - it looks like a grounded plug with three lights and a black button) for around $8. It might be a good way to double check the hookup.

Thanks again for all your help. The Taos is back in the driveway and set up (no mildew, thought it was definitely wet)... DS may sleep there tonight... (I may join him.)

-George

AustinBoston · Jun 11, 2003, 08:31 AM

George

QuoteORIGINAL: George

You won t believe what the cause was...

I went to the dealer this afternoon to take my tester and show them what the problem was. It was set up outside one of the service bays and plugged in. I showed the techncian my tester - he had used a circuit tester without the GFCI button, but anyway, I plugged in my tester hit the button and...

Well... the GFCI tripped as it was supposed to.

When getting ready to leave home for the dealer, on a hunch I decided to pack the parts from the PU " starter kit" they supplied. I don t know why, but anyway I remembered that the 30A to 15A adapter was in the kit (I had used the adapter while at home the first night). So I looked at the plug and sure enough the Taos was plugged into the dealer s 30A outlet.

I asked him if I could try the adapter on a 15 amp circuit. With that in place I tried the tester and it did not trip... same two lights showing a hot/neutral reversal when the GFCI button was pressed as I had seen at home. When we looked into the adapter - the one s supplied with the startup kit are a bit... well cheap - we could see that the ground " hole" on the receiver part was spread a bit and loose.

We replaced the adapter with a better one and the problem dissappeared!

Moral of the story... If you don t have a good ground connection, you loose your GFI protection - even though the button test inside your PU may still work.

We will be buying another tester to pack with us... They re available at Home Depot (Sperry model GFI302A - it looks like a grounded plug with three lights and a black button) for around $8. It might be a good way to double check the hookup.

Thanks again for all your help. The Taos is back in the driveway and set up (no mildew, thought it was definitely wet)... DS may sleep there tonight... (I may join him.)

-George

This brings a whole bunch of things to mind.

The first is that this cost the dealer enough to buy at least 20 of the best adaptors...may be a lot more. It cost you the time and effort (and maybe time off work) to deal with it.

The second is that you would not have fixed this problem without going there to demonstrate the problem to the dealer.

Third, you were right to bring it back to the dealer. You could have fussed with it forever, taking wrong or misguided advice from us as we suspected everything under the sun except what was really wrong.

Fourth, I do want to correct something, though. Even without a ground, the GFCI will protect you. What doesn t work correctly without a ground is your tester. There is no way to trip a GFCI without a ground. That ground may go through you (the whole purpose of a GFCI) to a doorknob to the trailer frame to the stabilizer to the ground, ir it may go through the wiring ground. The only one available to your tester is the wiring ground, so it won t trip the GFCI without a wiring ground.

Fifth, you are better off with a solid ground through the electrical system, so having the tester to check for one is a good idea. Although the GFCI should protect you without a ground, GFCI s do fail...which is why they have a " test" button!

Sixth, years ago I worked in Quality Assurance. Between that and my 20+ years as a computer programmer, I learned that everyone instinctively suspects the most expensive or complex part/device/component/link in the event of a failure. I try to remind myself, however, to start with the least expensive or easiest to test or fix items first. You spent hours (and the dealer spent at least an hour) diagnosing something that could have been detected in 5 minutes or less...if you knew to look there. Therein lies the rub...you have to force yourself to look at the cheap stuff first. Doing that right would have forced us to ask about extension cords and adaptors. But we didn t.

Austin (placing himself in the center of " we" and " us" )

chasd60 · Jun 11, 2003, 10:06 AM

GeorgeGot here late but I assumed it was either something like you found or you had used an extension cord with the ground prong removed (we wouldn t do that would we??)

George · Jun 11, 2003, 05:06 PM

GeorgeThanks Austin.

Good points. The problem was I didn t have a 30A outlet at my house so there was no way for me to test if the adapter was the problem without going back to the dealer. But you re right about the simple things going wrong. I m a chemist and whenever something fails in the lab... it s usually a simple and cheap component (usually).

You mentioned my time involved... You don t know the half of it...

I towed the PU back home only to discover they never gave me the key (my fault for not remembering to ask). Since the PU was still damp from sitting wet for a week, I wanted to open it up so I drove back to the dealer (normally a 45 min to 1 hour ride with normal traffic). Unfortunately, there were several accidents on the parkway enroute to the dealer... more unfortunatley, there were accidents along the back way I tried to bypass the traffic on the parkway. 2.5 hours later I arrived at the dealer. (I had visions all the way home that they gave me the wrong key.)

The technician was good, the people were all nice, but I never seen such a disorganized dealership service department. Hopefully I won t have to spend 1/2 a vacation day each time it needs attention.

-George

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