RE: Do me a favor and ......

[YellowXterra]

 
Do me a favor and learn to back your campers!  I was at Fort Wilderness (Disney) last week and got to enjoy the sights and sounds of people who should not go camping till they learn to back a camper. Got to watch one guy try for 20 minutes to back his pop up into his campsite while his wife hollered at him ( I started to ask the guy if he wanted me to back it in there for him but figured it would just have upset him more ) , then we got to enjoy the sounds of a new looking 5th wheel camper being dragged down the side of a tree while backing into their campsite. I really hated to see and hear that nice camper being dragged like that. I drove over 1500 miles last week and seen lots of pop ups on the road but never did see a PUT s sticker any where. Were you all hiding []

[SuZone]

 YellowXterra
Yes, I believe we have all seen some REALLY BAD back-ups over the years. The stories we could tell!
  I myself have not mastered backing up using only the mirrors, but can do a half decent postioning just looking over my shoulder.  I m sure that there are several " smarties"  out there snickering at this moment for not using my mirrors, but " Oh well" , I can at least put the popup where I want it to go! []
 Happy Camping Everyone!
 Sue

[garym053]

 YellowXterra
I use mirrors, over the shoulder, out the window and anything else that will give me a good view of what or who I m backing near! I ve backed everything from Dozers to tractor-trailers and am perfectly capable of backing using only the mirrors, but I don t! Far too many people have been run over by people who have an aversion to turning their heads!
 I do agree that there are an awful lot of people out there who have done zilch for backing practice! You know what s even scarier? How many of those people driving those 40  motorized RV s have taken a single leson in handling it?

[Starcraft Dad]

 YellowXterra
OK, OK, I m going to Proud Lake Recreation Area here in Wixom, Michigan.  We will be there this wednesday.  Grab your six pack and a few lawn chairs.  This will be my first attempt backing into a treed site.  And don t forget the video camera.  You may win $10,000.[]

[Gone-Camping]

 YellowXterra
I drive a tow truck for a living, and back them up all day long. However, the new Hybrid is a different story. Can t see a darn thing around it when backing! I m going to rig up an old security camera I have as a make shift back-up camera.
 
 As far as doing it with mirrors, I m a professional at backing, and still look over my shoudler as well as use the mirrors, so don t feel bad at all, backing is almost as much art as it is a skill...

[mike4947]

 YellowXterra
Going with Cliff on this one. I ve done a lot of trator trailer driving and could put a 40 footer into a dock with 6 inches on either side. Backing up a 8 foot PU had me pulling my hair out.
 In our extended camping family there s about 6 truck drivers, towing everythng from 8 foot PU s to a converted 45 foot moving van (ultamate 5th wheel []) and all of us have problems except the moving van owner.
 In fact a couple of the guys put their wives behind the wheel while they do the " mombac"  thing. You know the one that stands behind the trailer yelling " mombac, plenty of room" .[]

[cyclone]

 YellowXterra
Hmmmm.....this may the reason I m still camping with a tent! []  Randy, don t laugh at me next year, ok?

[whitestar505]

 YellowXterra
YellowXterra,
 
      I agree with you. I have learned that the first thing you need to do when backing up is TAKE YOUR TIME and MOVE SLOWLY. I am no pro by a long shot and still turn the wheel the wrong way when I first start backing up. As I back up slowly, I can adjust as I go provided I take all the room I need.
 
   Next week is my trial of backing up. As I begin my three week trip in central New York. At this one camp that I have to back down to, there is a 30 degree slop. I find by taking my time works, and making sure all is where I think it is... Even with a AWD/Four wheel drive it is not only a challenge to back it down into place but pulling it out on a wet grassy foundation.
 
 Bottom  Line: Take your Time![]

[forestwalker]

 YellowXterra
I think that impatient drivers waiting for those of us " taking our time backing into a camping space"  should " mellow out"  to say the least.They are much worse than someone having difficulty getting into a space.

[whitestar505]

 forestwalker
forestwalker,
 
    I would say, don,t worry about them.
 

[AustinBoston]

 YellowXterra
While I do believe there is some art in backing, I m one to say there s a lot more science than even pro s (and perhaps myself) realize.  What makes it a science is that it has proveable rules.  The rules are a couple magnitudes more complicated than normal steering, where you turn the wheel to turn (and turn it more to turn more).  Some of those rules (both serious and humorous):
 
 1) Audience Rule.  Backing is always more difficult with an audience.  The bigger the audience, the harder it gets.  See [link=http://www.popuptimes.com/members/tm.asp?m=28351&p=5&tmode=1]Backing Up the PUP...LOL[/link] for more details.
 2) The Crunch of Failure Rule.  Sometimes, you just gotta keep trying, abandoning adequate positions in order to try to get a better position, until you get the Crunch of Failure.  For more on this, see [link=http://mikeday.rexnet.net/kf9ug/outdoors/index.shtml]Michael & Sandy s Outdoor & Travel Page[/link].  You will have to scroll way down to find it, but it s there.
 3) Yelling Rule.  Yelling makes it easier to back.  When it starts going badly, start yelling louder.  If you are doing it right, rule #1 will kick in soon.
 
 Now to the more serious rules (but no more true than the first three):
 
 4) Trailer Length Rule: The longer the trailer, the easier it is to back.  This is one of two reasons professional tractor trailer drivers turn red, go bald and start cursing when they can t seem to back a pop-up.  It really is harder to back a short trailer than a longer one.
 5) TV Turning Radius Rule: The longer the tow vehicle s turning radius, the harder it is to back the trailer.  This means the nice long Suburban, which makes a great tow vehicle, makes a lousy backing vehicle.  It s also the other reason professional tractor trailer drivers turn red, go bald and start cursing when they can t seem to back a pop-up.  What s important isn t the absolute turning radius, but the ratio of tow vehicle to trailer turning radius.  With a tractor-trailer, the tow vehicle turning radius is a small fraction of the trailer s turning radius, but with a pop-up, the trailer s turning radius may be a small fraction of the tow vehicle s turning radius.  This makes it much more difficult.
 6) The Steering Rules:
 6a) The Tow Vehicle Steers Rule.  Most drivers are used to the front wheels turning their tow vehicle, whether going forward or backwards.  But with a trailer, the tow vehicle turns the trailer.  Not the tow vehicle s front wheels, but the tow vehicle itself.  If the trailer and tow vehicle are at an angle, it won t matter how much you turn the steering wheel, the trailer is going to continue to turn in the same direction until the tow vehicle itself swings around so that the angle between the TV and trailer changes direction.  This leads to rules 6b and 6c:
 6b) The Jackknife Rule.  If the tow vehicle and trailer get into a tight enough angle, no amount of tow vehicle turning will correct for it, and continuing to back will lead to a special version of the Crunch of Failure.  The exact point depends on rules 4 & 5 and on the configuration of the trailer tongue.  For all practical purposes, the turning radius of the trailer is variable and self-exaggerating.  Once the trailer/TV are at an angle, the angle will get tighter and tighter unless controlled by the tow vehicle.
 6c) The Distance-Delay Rule.  One of the effects of rules 6a & 6b is that it takes time (really, it takes distance) for the trailer to respond to changes in tow vehicle steering.  The amount of distance depends on the existing angle between the tow vehicle and trailer, and on the turning radii (rules 4 & 5) of the TV and trailer.  People who are really good at backing have learned to anticipate the need to turn and start their turns before they appear to be necessary.  And if delayed too long, there is no correcting, because rule 6b takes over.
 6d) Counter-steer Rule.  Perhaps the most confusing thing for most people is the fact that the steering wheel is turned in the opposite direction from what is intuitive.  Starting from a straight line, turning the tow vehicle wheels to the right will turn the trailer to the left, and vice versa.  Turning the tow vehicle front wheels to the right (when backing) actually moves the front of the tow vehicle to the left.  (The net result is to point the back of the tow vehicle to the right, the direction you would normally want to go.)  But when backing a trailer, moving the front of the tow vehicle to the left steers the trailer left, so the net result is that steering left moves the trailer right.  The easiest way to get this down is to steer with the bottom of the steering wheel, moving the bottom of the wheel left to move the trailer left, and moving it to the right to move the trailer right.
 7) Small Changes Rule.  One of the artifacts of rules 6a, 6b, and 6c is that making frequent small changes to the steering wheel are more effective than trying to make a bigger change later on.  Stay on top of the trailer, and correct immediately (or sooner, see rule 6d).
  Take It Slow Rule.  A general artifact of all of these rules, especially the Crunch of Failure rule, is that you need to not be in a hurry when backing in.  Taking a few extra minutes to take it slow will get you parked sooner than rushing and having to try again (and again and again).
 9) Practice Rule.  There is no substitute for practice, practice, and more practice.  Even when you have it down pat, you will find yourself pulling out your hair with a different TV/Trailer combination.  The behavior of each combination is a little different (sometimes a lot different), along with different visibility, clearances, etc.  This is where the art comes in.  You don t need to be an expert on backing to look like one.  You just need to be practiced on backing your trailer with your tow vehicle.  You can get there by practicing.
 10) The Do It Rule.  If you don?t understand some (or all) of these rules, don?t fret.  Just get out there and do it, working techniques will come to you with practice.
 11) The hand-backing rule.  Fortunately, the smallest, most difficult to back trailers are sometimes small enough to be backed by hand.  Don t see it as a failure, see it as your technique for backing.  Just be careful with slopes and things that can catch the tongue wheel.
 
 My father was the best trailer backers I ever saw.  I don t know where he learned to back like he did.  It might have been growing up on a farm (where he was driving tractor by age 10), or in the service, where he was a mechanic (and a bomb disposal expert).  But we had a homemade utility trailer that I saw him back with a number of different cars from a 1973 AMC Gremlin to a big old station wagon, and I never once saw him have to pull forward and try again.  We had a dirt driveway back then, and one time I noticed how the tire tracks where he had backed that trailer were perfectly straight.
 
 I wish I could do that.
 
 Austin
 
 Posted in memory of Dad, 1928-1983.

[whippetwrun]

 YellowXterra
Besides the free entertainment, how was Disney?  We ll be at Ft Wilderness in August!  (don t worry, Dh never bellows directions - he knows I just ignore him when he does [])

[lhuff]

 YellowXterra

It might have been growing up on a farm (where he was driving tractor by age 10),

 The first thing I learned to back was a farm wagon with a tractor.  I was about the same age as your dad.  The farm wagon was a bit like a giant " Radio Flyer" .  It had a pivot between the front wheels and another where it attached to the tractor draw bar.  Although completly backwards from backing a conventional trailer, it did make it easier to back " normal trailers" .

[Camping Coxes]

 AustinBoston

5) TV Turning Radius Rule: The longer the tow vehicle s turning radius, the harder it is to back the trailer. This means the nice long Suburban, which makes a great tow vehicle, makes a lousy backing vehicle.

 Now I get it!  We had an 8-foot PU towed with our minivan, and never had a problem backing in.  The first trip out with the Suburban and the 12-foot PU DH pulled in effortlessly (we have SCCamper witnesses to prove it!), but they were wide sites with easy access.  This last trip, he couldn t get the trailer over to the desired side no matter how hard he tried.  It didn t help that we had a hillside directly in front of the site, so he was having to back in at a 45-degree angle.  I put 2-way radios in the Suburban so we d have them for backing in since now with the bigger TV and the AC on the trailer, my DH can t see my wild gesturing back there, so of course one of them had a dead battery![:@]  That didn t help the frustration factor. We finally got it in at an angle and pushed it over where we needed it!  Can t do that with a 5th wheel!

[Danusmom]

 YellowXterra
When I started reading this I was wondering when AustinB was going to chime in...ROTFLOL...I love his version of " Audience Rule" [].  It s usually about half the entertainment for us while camping.[]  Then, again, turn-about is fair play.  DH isn t too much better --but hasn t hit anything.  As for me, I need A LOT more practice.  Backing up the PU is hard enough.  Yet, for me the challenge is compounded with me being short (5 ) & managing the manual transmission of the TV while watching the PU go in every direction but the one I had intended.
 
 Thanks for the pointers.  They should really help out this season.
 
 Peace be with you all.