RE: Houston, we have a problem! (12v kind)

[Wayfarer]

 I have a problem:  For some reason my interior (and porch) lights are not working and I can t figure out what little part is not working right.  Perhaps some of you guys will recognize the symptoms or at least suggest what I might look for.
 
 A few days ago everything was working fine.  Since I have the PU up for sale and was fixing to set it up in a local parking lot and show it last Saturday, we opened it up and gave it a thorough cleaning, then carefully shut it down.  The next day I took it to the local Walmart parking lot and, back off in a distant corner, set it up without unhooking from the TV, put a coupleof " For Sale"  signs in the windows and waited.  Showed it to several folks who stopped by and have 2 or 3 who seem very interested.  Along about mid-day I just thought I d turn on an inside light and read the paper while eating my lunch.  Surprise!  No lights. Then I noticed for the first time that the " gas detector"  was not working.  Checked the battery hookup.  OK.  Checked the fuse box and found the 20amp fuse blown.  The three 15amps were OK.  Replaced the 20amp and a red light came on next to one of the 15amp fuses (3rd toward rear from 20amp) and the gas detector seemed to chirp faintly, but no lights on it.  Rechecked everything but nothing worked.  
 
 The battery is kept charged and when resting in the garage I always disconnect the cables so the gas detector does not drain it.  Just for good measure I did put the charger on it over Sunday.
 
 Today, hooked up battery and opened things up.  Still no lights except the red light over the 15amp fuse mentioned above.  Can t find any loose wires and have no idea where to start looking next.  By the way, the PU was hooked up to the TV (harness) when I was set up at Walmart but not today when checking in my driveway.  
 
 Does this make any sense to anyone?  Any solutions?  Suggestions?

[Mcooperstein]

 Wayfarer
On my pop-up there is a switch underneath the sink that is wired in series with the inside lights.  My sink unit folds over on top of one of the couch units and this is the position you leave the sink when bringing down the pop-up.  I assume that many other pop-ups are like this, but as this is my first camper I dont know for sure.  Anyway, the switch is hooked up under the sink and will go " ON"  when the sink unit is in it s normal upright position, and go " OFF"  when it s folded over in it s storage position.  It s purpose is to make sure all power to lights is cut off when travelling just in case you left a light on.  You wouldnt want to start a fire inside of the popup while hauling it...  Anyway, this is something to check if your pop-up is similar.
 
 It sounds to me that the problem is somewhere else though... probably in the converter since you noticed a burned up fuse.  As I recall, there are 4 fuses in my popup.  One is 20 amp and I believe is for the 12V charger hooked to the battery.  The other three are 15 amp.  One drives all inside lights, one drives the refrigerator, and the remaining is for the furnace (if you have one).  The gas detector is hooked into one of these three also.  If you have a short in any one of these circuits excess current would be drawn and a fuse would blow.
 
 You might try the following: disconnect A/C power (shore power), disconnect the 12V positive (+) wire coming from popup battery and going to the converter.  Then, once your SURE there s no power going to the converter, go to the back of the converter and disconnect the 4 12V wires going to the 4 circuits.  On mine, three are blue, and one is red corresponding with the 3 15 amp and 1 20 amp circuit.  Then, put good fuses in and hookup the battery lead (that you previously disconnected).  Wait a couple minutes and see if any fuses are blown (you ll need either a continuity tester or multimeter, or just " eyeball"  the fuse to see if it s still good). If one or more fuses are bad, the converter is probably blown.  If all fuses are good, then next plug back in the A/C shore power and wait a few minutes to see if a fuse blows.  If your fuses remain good, then you might suspect a short in one of the circuits.  If you blow a fuse, then it s the converter.  One last thing to notice... there should be a cooling fan on the converter.  Does it turn?  Sometimes they go bad and cause problems.  
 
 Good luck,
 Mark

[Papaso]

 Wayfarer
I tend to agree with Mark, on the switch under the sink theory but it sounds like Mark has a Coleman and yours is a Rockwood. Hopefully they have a similar type switch. Mark, sounds like you ve been crawling around checking whats behind panel #1, 2 and so on. Nothing like knowing the inside outs.[] Coleman (Fleetwood) provides wiring diagrams for their trailers one for AC side and one for DC maybe you can get one from Rockwood and follow the circuits to the source. Hope it goes eazy.
 

[Wayfarer]

 Wayfarer
Thanks for the input!
 
 Forgot to add in the original post that this problem is in the Coleman Utah, which I am trying to sell, and not in the Rockwood.  Looks like I need to popup up again and make some more checks.  BTW:  Where exactly is the converter?  
 
 [font=" Script MT Bold" ]Wayfarer[/font][/size]
 

[Papaso]

 Wayfarer
The converter is behind the brown flip down panel where the fuses and the circuit breakers, but since it s the Coleman first check the switch under the fold down sink and stove. I ll bet the arm broke off. Lottsa luck.

[Wayfarer]

 Wayfarer
Okay,  With Hurricane Claudette blowing down in the Gulf and causing a cool breeze and, so far, no rain or high winds here in Huntsville (about 125 miles north), I opened up the Coleman Utah PU, hooked up the battery and shore power, and checked out all the lights.  Here s what I found:
 
 Nothing much has changed from the original post.
 
 Plugged in the AC.  It worked, as did the trunk light.
 
 The overhead lights did not work, nor did the porch light.
 
 The gas leak detector had a weak, very faint, beep but the lights were not on.
 
 Using the bunk light with the telephone plug I tried all the 12v jacks.  None worked.
 
 Used a circuit tester on all 110v wall plugs.  All tested OK.
 
 The fuses are all okay (1-20amp & 3-15amps) and the red light on the 15amp fuse toward the rear is still glowing.
 
 Even pressed the test button on the one wall plug.  Reset button popped out.  Pushed in in.  Nothing changed.
 
 Could find no wires loose and nothing seemed out of place, etc.
 
 I guess, since the AC works and the 110v plugs are live, I can assume that the cut-off switch under the swing-level galley is working,  Right?  
 
 This problem has me as confused as a termite in a yoyo!  Guess I ll have to get into the converter and check it out (which I m not all that comfortable with)...unless the above info leads someone to an obvious solution.
 
 Any help?
 
 [font=" Script MT Bold" ]Wayfarer[/font][/size]
 

[Papaso]

 Wayfarer
The kill switch only cuts off the 12 volt accessories, I have a 1998 grand tour series diagram set which includes 12 volt interior, 120 volt general trailer wiring and exterior 12 volt Bargman wiring. It s all very simple and I would be happy to fax them to you, if you e-mail me a Fax # I ll get them to you in the AM. A sure way to eliminate the switch is to simply jump it out it s held in with two phillips screws and all you need to do is touch the two wires together piece of cake. Go for it.

[LKaskel]

 Wayfarer
The faint chirp you get from the gas detector is a sign of 12 volt power issues.  Usually low power.  I m thinking either the converter is bad or there is a grounding problem.  The trailer uses the frame for some of it s ground.  Try checking the areas where the converter would be grounded to the trailer.  If the connection is loose or has a bad connection (usually from corossion) this would cause VERY similar 12 volt problems.  The switch under the galley is not the problem because the gas detector is working somewhat.  This indicates the problem is larger that the lighting circuit.  The fact the trunk light works...man you got me there.  Hmmmmm
 
 
 Lord Bless
 Larry

[CAPEd CODger]

 Wayfarer
On my Cape Cod, there are two switches on the left side cabinet just inside the door. These switches turn off the ceiling lights and step light. I don t know if your camper has a similar set-up or not. Because I ran into a problem with some one turning off the switch, or stuff being crammed in the cabinet and disconnecting the wires, I bypassed the switches. My galley kill switch is still hooked up. Another thing to check at the galley switch is under the cabinet. Packing all the goodies can knock wires loose.(Yeah that happened too) I built a box over the wiring to prevent future " accidents" .
 Good luck to you
 Bob

[LKaskel]

 Wayfarer
OK....Papaso faxed me the diagrams for the 1998 Grand Tour campers.  Thanks again John!!!!!  Here is what I can tell you.  There is a wire leaving the converter (noted as blue at the converter and black with a red tracer as it is run through the camper) that connects directly to the porch light (outside) and the gas detector.  These two devices are not effected by the switch under the galley.  If the galley is down these devices should still work.  This same wire also connects to the switch under the galley and from the switch it feeds the furnace, thermostat, and the inside lights.  If the galley is down these devices should not work.  If the galley is up and the switch is working correctly these devices should work.  There is a second circuit that feeds the water pump (if installed), refridgerator (if installed) and the trunk light (if your model has a storage trunk) which yours does.  These are on a seperate circuit and it makes sense that they are not effected.  My conclusion is either the circuit that you are having trouble with is bad on the converter or there is some problem with the wiring for this circuit.  I would think if there was a problem with the wire that caused  these symptoms (beeping gas detector) a fuse would blow all the time but that s just a thought.  As a note this diagram shows there are two spare 12 volt circuits so you may be able to swap the wiring to an unused circuit if the problem happens to be the converter.  I must say WAYFARER you did a great job explaining the issues and that really helps to daignose problems!!!!!  At this point you may want to simply move the wiring (it should only be one wire) to an unused circuit.  If the problem remains then you ll know it s the wiring.  If the problem is solved then you ll know it s the converter.  That s the easiest next step.  All that said and I m still not sure of the year of your camper.  If it s a 97, 98, 99 or 00 I bet this diagram is fairly accurate.  If it s not then we may need to find a diagram for your year.  If you would like to discuss this with me send me an e-mail and I ll give you my #.  If we talked I bet we could figure this out!  Let us know how things work out!
 
 Lord Bless,
 Larry

[Steve-o-bud]

 Wayfarer
You are almost there.
 
 I m a telecomm geek that works at an electric utility, so I m very big into testing things. I will go into some detail, not knowing your level of expertise, so, please don t take offense if this is too much detail.
 
 Go out, and get a cheap 12 volt bug lamp. Available at Pep Boys, Auto Zone, or most any auto parts store. This will have an alligator clip with a wire attached (to hook to some grounded point, such as the chassis/frame), and a lamp assembly, with a sharp point (like a small point of an ice pick).
 
 The sharp point is to pierce the insulation of the wire, without making a big hole. The hole is so small, that once you re done with the test, it doesn t really affect the integrity of the insulation. (If desired, go ahead and cover the spot where you pierced the insuallation with a piece of electrical tape, it won t hurt anything, and you will know where you ve made a test). When the sharp point makes contact with the energized conductor under the insulation of the wire, and the alligator clip is attached to ground, viola - it will illuminate.
 
 Find a good ground, attach the alligator clip to it. Verify it is working, by checking the output terminal of the 12 volt converter. The bug lamp should illuminate brightly. Based upon your previous info:
 
 You can rule out any problem with the shore power. Your outlets, AC etc. are working.
 
 And you can rule out the converter, since your trunk light works. (PS, verify this by disconnecting your battery, and running solely from the converter.)
 
 It sounds like the circuit in questions feeds the leak detector, the porch light, and then splits off to the galley switch (and then the rest of the interior lights), is the culprit.
 
 Take the bug lamp, and check the circuit at the converter, then continue down stream, at all connection points. The bug lamp should glow brightly, indicating good voltage, and current. At some point, you will find a point where it is dim, or won t light at all. There, you will find your problem.
 
 Also, the leak detector being dim with a dim chirp indicates low voltage. This could be caused by a poor ground, as has been mentioned. You can check for this, by reversing the bug lamp - connect the alligator clip to a solid source of 12 volts, and then check the ground by pressing the sharp point on the chassis, then check the wire supplying ground by piercing it, at each point the lamp should light.
 
 I m not sure how Fleetwood does their connections, but it s possible that they use Scotch lock connectors to tap off the main wire where the circuit branches off. These can come loose causing bad connections.
 
 Be careful when piercing the wire, that you don t stick yourself with the point. When checking for grounds, make sure the alligator clip stays firmly on the lug supplying 12 volts. You may have to extend it with a piece of wire to reach wherever it is that you need to test. Make sure that it is not exposed so you don t cause a short to ground. This isn t dangerous (12 volts won t shock you), but you don t want to blow a fuse, etc.
 
 I hope this gives you some ideas on how to test and troubleshoot your 12 volt system. E-mail me, if you need further help, and I can give you a call.
 
 

[Wayfarer]

 Wayfarer
Good info from all of you.  Things have kinda swarmed on me the last few days and I haven t been able to do more than think about how I ll approach the problem.  Hopefully, things will slow down and I ll be able to get to work on tracing things down and getting it all straightened out.  Thanks again for your input...
 
 Will post findings (solution hopefully) later.
 
 [font=" Script MT Bold" ]Wayfarer[/font][/size]

[Wayfarer]

 Wayfarer
Just a brief (LOL!) update on my Coleman Utah electrical problem.  What with the heat and humidity, my knees giving out way too soon, and just a general lack of energy I m not getting all that much done.  Here s what I found this morning:
 
 The kill switch is OK so I ve ruled that out.
 
 Hooked up the battery, and as before on the electrical panel, the 4th red light from the front (3rd 15amp fuse) was on indicating a blown fuse.  Removing and examining the fuse it did not appear blown - no way - but my trusty $9.95 volt-ohm meter indicated it was.  Replaced the fuse and, viola, everything worked!  However, red light on leak detector indicating " fault"  was on and everytime I turned on a light there was a loud " chirp"  and lights grew increasingly dimmer.
 
 Checked battery and it checked OK with one of those " battery water checkers"  (hydrometers?).  (Later, after shutting down, I brought the battery in and hooked it up to my Schumacher 2/10/50 Fully Automatic Charger bought at a garage sale and it showed a steady 2amp charge.)
 
 Hooked up shore power and immediately the 20amp fuse blew and nothing worked.  Unhooked 120v and replaced 20amp fuse and plugged in again with same result.  (Duuuh - what else was I expecting? But had to check.)
 
 By then it was into the 90 s with humidity making it seem 100 and I was pooped out so I gave up, disconnected everything and shut down.  (This is when I brought battery in and hooked up charger.)
 
 This evening I was aching too much to get out and try again so I m studying the posts of  Larry and Steve (above), and with the wiring diagrams faxed me by Papaso and the 12v bug light suggested by Steve, making plans to tackle the problem early tomorrow AM and see if I can find the short or whatever.  
 
 Hmmmm.  This is getting curiouser and curiouser.
 
 Stay tuned....
 
 [font=" Script MT Bold" ]Wayfarer[/font][/size]
 
 
 

[LKaskel]

 Wayfarer
These are great troubleshooting skills you are using!  Here is what I think based on what we know at this point.  The converter sounds as if it may have developed a problem in this circuit.  It also sounds as if the battery may have needed a charge and that would cause some of the issues like the lights dimming.  Here is two ideas.  The first easy test is to either hook up the battery after charging or simply hook the charger to the battery once connected to the camper.  The second may take some more effort.  Try switching the circuit on the converter these devices are using.  I have never looked at the back of the converter to see how the circuits connect.  They may have a screw terminal or it s more likely they are using pig tails.  Pig tales are wires comming off of a device (the converter in this case) and are not connected to anything but are ready for use.  If you could switch the circuit on the converter it would really be helpful!  If the fuse blows on the new circuit then that would tell you the problem is following the wiring.  If it does not blow and all is well then we would know the problem is in the converter.  I could stop by Wednesday after work if you would like.  It s only about 1500 miles
 
 Lord Bless!
 Larry

[Wayfarer]

 Wayfarer
I ll be expecting you!  ;-)
 
 [font=" Script MT Bold" ]Wayfarer[/font][/size]