More about PUT future

[basecamprv]

I know that several threads have been created about what is happening with the Arvee Club.  I

[angelsmom10]

First thoughts (and I really haven't digested everything you wrote), You said the with the purchase of the magazine, you had a free subscription to the board, for the most part that was what we had before Jan 1.  I'm sure that we had a lot of people who subscribed to the magazine who did not come back to the board.  Right now, Dave is offering a free magazine subscription with the sign up of the board.  So he has done that, but only raised the price of the magazine.  Maybe it's been done, but maybe someone should post over at the other boards about the offer currently offered and Dave could see if he gets people to return.

I'm hoping this offer will be good for a while.
 
I'd like the idea of mfgrs coming here, but what I'd like to see is to try to set up the board as an advisory board and mfgs could offer "NEW" or test products here and offer at "cost" with the "suggested retail" and see if they can get some of us to test the product and review it for them.

[MtnCamper]

Basecamp, Some really good ideas.

Wouldn't it be nice, to have a place to go, and either download all the manufactures manuals, and schematics from? Or a least a common page for all the links? A link page would probably work better, because it wouldn't fill this server, and manufactures may be proprietary. But it would sure be handy.

[Ab Diver]

Basecamp,

I applaud your participation in the forum!  Unfortunately, it seems that most pop-up manufacturers have little to no interest in *openly* contributing to a public forum. Not a single post by Starcraftrv or Jaycorv, and only one press release about the Coleman name change from Fleetwoodrv. The one exception being Vikingrv, which seems to have an active and honorable exchange of information on this web site.

While we certainly can't dictate to Dave how he should or should not direct *his* site (nor should we), I'd love to have more effort made to include the manufacturers in this forum. However, we have no idea what, if anything, has been discussed concerning this matter between Dave and each company's representation.

As a manufacturer, perhaps you could help us out a bit....  have you found anything posted by the general membership of this forum to be helpful or instrumental in the design of your product? What, if anything, could John Q. Member do or say that would make a difference in future pop-ups? Obviously, constructive criticism would be more welcome than name-calling and unsubstantiated claims. I'm sure each company has their own strategy for competing in the open market, but does customer input really make a difference? Or does "jumping on the bandwagon" of a hot-selling idea such as the current Hybrid or Toybox crazes provide more of a driving force than customer input?

Or is it more likely that each company's legal department keeps them from participating and sticking their collective wrench in their mouth? Unless they actually start to participate, we may never know the answers to questions such as this.

On the other hand, this forum does have a "Campfire" section. And the different Club and Rally forums of this site have been instrumental in many members meeting each other. The bonds of friendship have grown between strangers who never would have met were it not for PUT. For this, I am very grateful to Dave. I have no doubt others feel the same way.

As for PUT becoming a stepping stone for breaking news from manufacturers reaching the pop-up camping public, we can only hope. Too many times we have gone to dealers asking for information regarding new models or pop-up related products, only to be given a blank stare in return. It seems the dealers are often the last to know in our area.

Again, thanks for taking the time to join our little corner of the World Wide Web. I look forward to your future contributions to this forum, and hope to someday see you and your product in person. Until then, we'll place another log on the virtual fire, and continue to help each other as we toss back another cold -- uhmm... "beverage of your choice" from the cooler.  

[basecamprv]

Ab Diver,

I probably didn't say enough about the community of members here and how valuable the communications and relationships are, in fact they are the very reason that this site represents the value it does.  I was tossing out ideas about perhaps how this site could possibly expand.  Ideally the "industry" related areas/topics/features would be in addition to the already established areas.  Again, I'm just tossing out ideas for discussion.

As for communications between PUT (Dave) and other manufacturers, I can not and would not make any comments.  I have posted this thread in the hopes that other members of PUT will contribute their thoughts/ideas/concerns about the different possibilities.  I have no idea whether other manufacturers/suppliers will comment on this thread.  I don't know if PUT will.  But I think it could be a good discussion that might add insight to whether "industry" subjects and participation on the site would be a noble pursuit.

As for "the legal department" - from where I sit the legality of interacting with customers in an internet forum isn't any different from interacting with them at trade shows, special events and RV shows.  All of us manufacturers share floor space at shows designed to bring together the public and the companies selling product.  I think that this site can do the same thing.

As for the manufacturers/Suppliers - I wouldn't expect these companies to divulge trade secrets.  I do think that active communications will be good for both parties (consumer and company).  Yes, advertising and self promotion will be part of the deal, after all, these companies have to make money in order to advance their products.  I'm not suggesting that the "industry" members (IMEM) would take over the site with ads.  Topics for each IMEM would exist and that would be the boarders for where they would be present.  Perhaps some IMEMs would only be present on the site for a week, or a day, or something each month (again, just ideas).  Anyway, I have lots of ideas but I think it would be better if other members express their thoughts in this area.

As for whether John Q. Member can make a difference - yes.  Think about it from an IMEM point of view.  Many companies in this industry, and others, invite current customers to meet with them in an informal "company sponsored round-up event" or in a formal "customer focus group" so that the manufacturer can get direct feedback about their current products and future "possibilities".  Look at the auto industry.  They go on tour around the country each year with new product and concept vehicles so that they can find out what people are thinking.  These types of gatherings/events are expensive and sometimes difficult to plan.  Participating in a virtual gathering like this web site is very cost effective. Speaking for Base Camp RV, I have found many threads to be very informative.  Not only for ideas on design, but also a real sense of what people experience in the real world using the product.  What I would hope is that PUT members would find these kinds of discussions valuable for them.  I doubt IMEMs will pursue offering prototype testing, product discounts, etc. to the PUT community for many reasons, most of them legal.  The value for both vendor and customer will be found in the connection of the communication.  Customers will find answers to questions and gain greater understanding of why and how a manufacturer does what it does.  The manufacturer will gain greater understanding of how/why/when their product is used.  All of this results in better product which results in greater customer satisfaction.  

Finally, when it comes to "jumping on the band wagon" and hot-selling products, the determining factor for any industry usually is our country's free enterprise market place - build what customers are buying.

Time to stop for now, it's time for that cold one.

[Trlrboy]

As a fairly longtime member I can understand that we want more people to participate.  PUX has become was PUT used to be.  When PUT became a pay site, PUX boomed with new members.  PUT magazine is not a huge draw to have people pay this much money.  Articles that are written by contributing members are good but the the magazine simply does not justify what you get for your money.

I agree with what some others have said about manufacturers and their lack of support of PUT or popup camping in general.  Whether we like it or not popups are the at the bottom of the RV ladder and it is not where a company is going to spend their advertising/customer service dollars since the return on the dollar is much lower than if they push TT's or 5er's.

[basecamprv]

Trlrboy,

I am an optimist by nature.  With that in mind I look at the PUT magazine and website as an opportunity (remember, these are just my opinions).  When one looks at the industry reports about how many pop-up/folding trailers have been delivered each year over the past 2-3, there is a slowing trend.  Is it because of customers not wanting them, or is it a lack of industry focus because of the profitability for dealers and MFGers?  Maybe both.  But I suggest that the perception you point out about being too costly (from a percentage of profit basis) to invest marketing dollars is the very reason that PUT (both the magazine and website) represents a unique value.  A focused group of members/owners, not wide open to the internet world at-large (like PUX).  It's a place where IMEMs (see previous post in this thread) can interact, communicate, promote, suggest, and listen to people that have a vested interest.  The PUT magazine represents a focused publication where IMEMs can market, promote, and educate together.  Each IMEM can gain greater market awareness and actually decrease a lot of their direct marketing expense by sharing that cost through the magazine.  And as the magazine's revenues increase through advertising and increasing circulation, the magazine will be able to increase the quality and quantity of its content.

As for the manufacturers and suppliers (IMEMs), I suggest that this type of marketing/customer service/direct communication through the website is new and different.  The lack of their involvement may be due less to a lack of interest and more to do with uncertainty.  I would suggest they look at the computer industry for examples.  Hardware and software manufacturers use several types of dealers/retailers to distribute their products, but the end customers can go to certain websites and communicate directly with the MFG's customer support.  This type of direct interaction doesn't interfere with the mfg/dealer or dealer/customer relationships.  In fact, many things about these relationships work better.  Also , manufacturers don't produce pop-up/folding trailers as lost leaders just to sell their other product lines.  There are many, many dedicated people in the pop-up/folding RV industry that take their jobs very seriously.  And IMHO (and being the optimist that I am) PUT has the unique opportunity for being the conduit by which the pop-up/folding trailer industry can establish a new customer service driven focus that will result in industry growth.

Again, these are just my personal opinions and thoughts.

[basecamprv]

Sorry for the additional post but there is one other point I wanted to touch on.  The PU/folding trailer may be the entry point for some new RV owners, but it has become much more than that.  Products like Hi-Lo, Trailmanor, and Base Camp RV wouldn't exist if the PU camping life style was only about money and the cost of a rig.  In fact, you can buy some new TTs for less than a PU.  The difference is PU camping has become a life style (or maybe a recreation style or camping style is a better way to say it).  Just like "full timers", "PU campers" are a unique group with unique interests in their recreational vehicle requirements.  As for "low end", that is a perception that if a manufacturer is on its toes realizes it's an incorrect perception.  Case in point, look at all of the posts on this website from people who have purchased two or three or even four PUs when they could have moved to a different type of RV.  Or the people that have come back to a PU after having tried something different.  And consider the new PU models entering the market.  More options, more features, new overall designs, all combine to suggest that PU mfg'ers see the PU camping style as a market to invest in.

[Diplomat]

Great discussion.  I think that someone on the 'other' board said it right, PUT Magazine is the only magazine we have dedicated to Pop Up camping, no one else has done it and done it successfully.  The magazine must be having an impact, why else would you see one in a manufactures brochure?  Remember, this board is an offshoot of the magazine, not the other way around.  Despite my wish that all things written should be transmitted electronically nothing quite replaces the feel of thumbing through pages of paper in a magazine or book.  Why is it that in this digital age Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and Borders are enjoying such success selling paper?  Have you seen the size of the magazine racks in Barnes and Noble lately?  The Internet is influential to be sure but paper is no less so.  Pop Up Times fills a need and I applaud Dave for having the courage to try a magazine at a time when print media seems like it should be dying.  I am glad that Dave chose the magazine over the site.  The magazine is more important in my opinion.  

Who's to say that the manufactures aren't participating in these boards?  Who's to say that I (or anyone else for that matter), am not in the employ of Fleetwood, Starcraft or a marketing company hired by one of them?  I'm betting that all the manufactures are read this board daily in some form or another.  If I were a snot nosed kid out to make a name for myself in marketing or engineering for one of the manufactures you bet I would read these boards!

[Used 2B PopUPTimes]

Thank you all for your support and kind words.

When we started the magazine back in March 1998, I was sure that by October 2003 I would be sitting in my 42' motorhome wearing my white shoes and white belt contemplating my next business venture. I thought magazine publishers were rich! I probably should have quit 3 years ago, but I like this job. I was a little worried 2 weeks ago when I heard the Afinity Group (Trailer Life Magazine, Motor Home Magazine, RV Business Magazine, Camping World, Good Sam etc.) bought out Camping Life magazine. I thought that they may be going after the low end  / entry level RVers and we'd be swished by the big boys. It could happen.

I'm very thankful for loyal readers, supportive advertisers and a great group of coworkers.

[Camping Coxes]

Thank you all for your support and kind words.

I was a little worried 2 weeks ago when I heard the Afinity Group (Trailer Life Magazine, Motor Home Magazine, RV Business Magazine, Camping World, Good Sam etc.) bought out Camping Life magazine. I thought that they may be going after the low end  / entry level RVers and we'd be swished by the big boys. It could happen.

I subscribed to one of the above-mentioned publications to fulfill a school fundraiser quote for my daughter, and was very disappointed.  There was always exactly one article pertaining to pop-ups, but it was always more of a product review of a particular new trailer with pictures straight from the sales brochures and not very useful.  Other than that, it wasn't very beneficial for me.

[tlhdoc]

That is why PUT magazine is so nice.  It is aimed right at the PU trailers that we love.

[basecamprv]

Diplomat,

Excellent points.  I agree that the magazine is the priority.  I would offer for consideration that the Popup Times website, if it was more closely related to the magazine content, then provides a medium that customers and vendors could directly interact on the topics and issues that are out (or will soon be out) in print.

I also agree that the manufacturers are active on this board, but only one (sorry, two) that I know of has formalized their participation.  There is a lot of traction here for marketing, engineering and customer service departments alike if they were to sponsor/host an area/topic formally.

Finally, some days I wish I was just a snot nosed kid again - no name required, darn it.  


Dave,
Big companies like to role everything up so that it can be managed at the top.  The result is they can't respond quickly, and they loose touch with what made their smaller (focused) acquisitions work to begin with.  Stay the course.  Popup Times magazine focuses on a unique community, a community that likes to be informed and in contact (and even heard sometimes).  I know I intend to help increase the magazine's exposure and circulation.

[angelsmom10]

Thank you all for your support and kind words.
 
When we started the magazine back in March 1998, I was sure that by October 2003 I would be sitting in my 42' motorhome wearing my white shoes and white belt contemplating my next business venture. I thought magazine publishers were rich! I probably should have quit 3 years ago, but I like this job. I was a little worried 2 weeks ago when I heard the Afinity Group (Trailer Life Magazine, Motor Home Magazine, RV Business Magazine, Camping World, Good Sam etc.) bought out Camping Life magazine. I thought that they may be going after the low end / entry level RVers and we'd be swished by the big boys. It could happen.
 
I'm very thankful for loyal readers, supportive advertisers and a great group of coworkers.

We may be not be very many, but we are loyal and supportive.  Keep up the good work.

[jawilson]

I was a little worried 2 weeks ago when I heard the Afinity Group (Trailer Life Magazine, Motor Home Magazine, RV Business Magazine, Camping World, Good Sam etc.) bought out Camping Life magazine. I thought that they may be going after the low end  / entry level RVers and we'd be swished by the big boys. It could happen.

I subscribe to both Camper Life and Trailer Life, and I can personally attest to the fact that PU's are not a priority to them in any way, shape or form. PUT is the "industry standard" when it comes to things canvas (or Sunbrella, or....)