Rear brakes of the TV

[birol]

I happen to know that a lot of us mechanically inclined !

There are some link for the pictures of the rear brakes of the windstar. I decided to fix them myself to save on labor costs, I have the haynes manual and feel comfortable doing this work. But, I decided not to do it because of the cost of drums ! They cost 125 bucks each ! that is a whopping 250 plus other incidental stuff like clamps etc. I am thinking that I can postpone this till Fall. Please have a look at the pictures and tell me if I am making a big mistake. The shoes are at 2/16 (replacement value is 1/16'th) I want to change the drums and the shoes at the same time ......

I am changing the front pads right now so it will have good new front pads



http://infocs.com/goomph/windstar/1.jpg
http://infocs.com/goomph/windstar/2.jpg
http://infocs.com/goomph/windstar/3.jpg
http://infocs.com/goomph/windstar/4.jpg
http://infocs.com/goomph/windstar/5.jpg
http://infocs.com/goomph/windstar/6.jpg
http://infocs.com/goomph/windstar/7.jpg
http://infocs.com/goomph/windstar/8.jpg
http://infocs.com/goomph/windstar/9.jpg

[campingboaters]

I've helped DH with a lot of brake jobs in our lives together.  Based on the pictures, the brake shoes look like they have enough "meat" on them to last you a bit longer, but I'm concerned about the condition of the drums.  You obviously realize they are not in the best of shape if you have priced them out.  Without seeing them in person, it's hard to tell how bad they really are and how much longer you can get away with not replacing them.  I'd be concerned with your up-coming long-haul and first towing of a camper without brakes.

[birol]

Yeah, I am concerned but there is no way I am coughing up 250+110 (shoes) +incidentals .... It has been working till now and I am hoping that it will be good for a little while longer ...... Unless someone says are you crazy those things are falling apart or whatever insane reason I have to not change them, simply no money ......

[Civil_War_Buff]

Birol,

If you haven't had those drums "turned" it is a better alternative than replacing them.  I'll bet that you can get a lot more service out of them.  I agree that the brake linings look like they have a lot of life left.  The wheel cylinders look like they have been leaking though,  so I would rebuild or replace them, have the drums turned, and clean everything up with brake cleaner...you should be fine for several months, depending on your brake useage and how many camping trips you take with the Birol-manor.


Larry

[calstate360]

Yeah, I am concerned but there is no way I am coughing up 250+110 (shoes) +incidentals .... It has been working till now and I am hoping that it will be good for a little while longer ...... Unless someone says are you crazy those things are falling apart or whatever insane reason I have to not change them, simply no money ......

I realize your money situation but those drums are shot.
I would not be driving the car. Remember the rears are your main stopping power. I suppose you could throw a set of shoes on the back but they will just form to the drums and you will need no replace them when you do the drums.
I know you don't want to hear that right now since you have to pick up the new rig but facts is facts. At least throw a cheap set of shoes on the back and be careful! In the states we can get a cheap set for $10.
Remember you will be hauling more weight and you have to stop it somehow.
Imaging having the weight of the popup in the back of the van and trying to stop the van & then add some fishtailing. After all the waiting and hard work we don't want to see you loose the popup on the way home or worse.
BTW congrats on the popup.
Sal

[Civil_War_Buff]

Remember the rears are your main stopping power.
Sal

Hey SAl,

Actually the rears are SECONDARY stopping, the fronts engage first.  This why the front pads wear more quickly (usually 2-3 times faster) than the rear shoes.  

Also, I think you are confusing the surface rust on the drums as an indication of their serviceability, but if you look closely, the shoe contact surface has been glazed over with brake fluid long ago, and it looks like they haven't doing much stopping for a while anyhow.  

If the drums are truly unserviceable, the machine shop won't turn them.  But, if Birol has access to an auto recycler (we used to call them junk yards), he can probably get a pair of drums that can be turned for a third of the cost of a new set.  Just another option.

Larry

[birol]

I did not see oil in the drums to be honest ..... I touched it it was dry black dust ..... No pil at all. How did you know/guess that there is oil in the drums ? I cleaned the drum and the shoes with brake cleaner and installed the drum back

I haev access to a junk yard and I use them for a lot of stuff ! The windstar goes to the dealer tomorrow for regular oil change and 51 point inspection ! I am in middle of chaging the front pads. I am sure they will tell me if I ahve to do something on the rear brakes. If they do I will go to the junk yard and get well used drums from them I guess and install them with new shoes .. I did not see any oil aroudn the cylinders so I don't know what to tell you .... That little bit of oil in the center is from the center of the hub as far as I can gather they must have overfilled it or something, there is little bit there as well.

One more thing, the hitch is installed through the frame with #8 bolts and nuts with huge washers to distribute the force to the frame. The bolts and nuts go throught he famre horizantally. Does there need to be some reinforcing backing plate I need to put into the frame at all ? The way it is right now is, bolt goues right through allway and matches with the nut. Frame and hitch are next to each other, washers before the nul and the bolt. Even if I put a reinforcing metal into the frame where the bolt goues through, would it even do anything ? it wouldn't work as far as I can guess. If The bolt was going from inside the frame to the outside, yeah I would definitely see the use. Any advise on that ? I can post pictures if needed

[wynot]

Remember the rears are your main stopping power.

Rear brakes usually do less than 25% of the stopping of a car.  If you want to find out how ineffective rear braking is, use the emergency brake to stop.
 
Most people never, ever, have to do anything more than adjust their rear drum brakes in the life of a car.  Even replacing the shoes is rather rare.

[Civil_War_Buff]

I did not see oil in the drums to be honest ..... I touched it it was dry black dust ..... No pil at all. How did you know/guess that there is oil in the drums ? I cleaned the drum and the shoes with brake cleaner and installed the drum back

One more thing, the hitch is installed through the frame with #8 bolts and nuts with huge washers to distribute the force to the frame. The bolts and nuts go throught he famre horizantally. Does there need to be some reinforcing backing plate I need to put into the frame at all ? The way it is right now is, bolt goues right through allway and matches with the nut. Frame and hitch are next to each other, washers before the nul and the bolt. Even if I put a reinforcing metal into the frame where the bolt goues through, would it even do anything ? it wouldn't work as far as I can guess. If The bolt was going from inside the frame to the outside, yeah I would definitely see the use. Any advise on that ? I can post pictures if needed

Yikes, I am not sure what happened but my reply disappeared.  Anyhow, were the contact surfaces of the drums shiny?  If not then they haven't doing much stopping for a while.  The black dust that collected on the wheel cylinders and everything else is from fluid leaking out of them.  It looks like the shoes haven't contacted the drums in a while, and that could be an indication that the cylinders are frozen.  I hope that you scuffed the shoes up with some sandpaper before you reinstalled the drums, right? Anyhow, the dealership should do a brake inspection as part of their regular mechanical one and they can advise more.  If you do get drums from the junk yard, have them turned before you install them.  Make sure the JY mic them for diameter too, (make them guarantee that they can be turned down).

As for the bolts, a picture would speak volumes here.  I think that you meant GRADE 8 bolts, not #8 right?  #8's are pretty small, but the pictures will help.  Hey, just like Birol, I want to look at pictures!!

Larry

[birol]

Hmm, frozen cylinders !!!! I do not like that !  I don't think so though as when I braked the right rear wheel made a grinding noise untill it got hot I guess the sound would disappear after a while. So it has got to be working ...

You are saying that all that dirt is because of the oil leaking but wouldn't that make my hydraulic levels go down ? It is like day one ... To be honest that is also what I thought when I opened it, I said this think is stuck here because fo oil but it is just dry dust ... (Or oil dried up). I don't think the drums were ever opened on this car (I know not while I owned it). If there were no oil the dust would just fall into the drum right ? Maybe the cylinders are leaking ..... Arrrggghh I guess I will ask them tomorrow to be very specific about the rear brakes. I am also going to check Canadian Tire(An Automotive parts supplier plus other stuff ) to see if they have a  replacement DRUM cheaper .....

[Civil_War_Buff]

Hmm, frozen cylinders !!!! I do not like that !  I don't think so though as when I braked the right rear wheel made a grinding noise untill it got hot I guess the sound would disappear after a while. So it has got to be working ...

You are saying that all that dirt is because of the oil leaking but wouldn't that make my hydraulic levels go down ?

Not such a big deal!! If the cylinders are frozen, or partially frozen they just don't do the job.  The black dust could be a combination of dirt, fluid and brake lining that has accumulated over time.  As for the fluid level dropping, absolutely, that is why I suggested a frozen cylinder, that would stop oozing fluid, but not move the shoes out either. At some point in time, the fluid level would have dropped and been topped off. As for my suspicion, it is because of wher I see the dirt, more than what it looks like that makes me suspicious of the cylinders. At the very least, yes, have them pay particular attention to the rear brakes, and I look forward to hearing what they tell you.

All in all it shouldn't cost a whole lot if the parts are serviceable, junk yard replaceable, and if you do the work yourself.  We are talking about brakes here, and lately everyone has been "pulling" for you, now I want you to "stop"!! Ha, I crack me up!

Larry

[birol]

HAHAHA He wants me to stop hilarious You cracked me up too so funny I want to be able to stop as well

When I finish the front brakes, I will take pics of the hitch and post them. I need antisquel grease thingie and a torque wrench and wifey took the camry and left me carless right now booohoooooo

[calstate360]

I don't care how brakes normally work! You throw a bunch of weight on the rear the front end will float. Therefor the rear will be providing the stopping power.
Not only am I a former mechanic I also ran a towing company for several years including driving the diesel rigs and servicing them all. Guess which brakes were in worse shape when they were serviced!!!!!
Also you can't really tell the shape of those drums from those pictures.
All you can do is offer an educated guess, and that's what I did.
Sal

[birol]

I am staring to get worried .... but looks like I have more time now. The Title should be in the dealers hands after ten days so looks like we will have time  to fix everything properly No more trip scheduled next Monday ...

He says it normally arrives after three days but he was told to expect it in ten days so we will see. As long as I get it this month I am game

[Civil_War_Buff]

I don't care how brakes normally work! You throw a bunch of weight on the rear the front end will float. Therefor the rear will be providing the stopping power.
Not only am I a former mechanic I also ran a towing company for several years including driving the diesel rigs and servicing them all. Guess which brakes were in worse shape when they were serviced!!!!!
Also you can't really tell the shape of those drums from those pictures.
All you can do is offer an educated guess, and that's what I did.
Sal

Sal,

I have no intention to debate this, I just responded to your remark that the rear brakes provide the "main" stopping power.  They don't, and if they aren't working they provide NONE!

Most rear brakes are worn out because PEOPLE forget to release parking brakes, than from actually stopping! I have yet to replace the rear brakes on my Toyota which I pulled a trailer with for years and it has 128K miles. 'nuff said!

Larry