What Birol should have done.......

[bearbait]

It was directed at B, and suggested that he didn't have any business posting about his adventures with Finally, among other things.

Sorry Toni, but this is completely wrong.   The posts Gene made were about Birol's posts about his personal life and that it was rarely anything to do with camping.  Gene never said a word about him posting about camping related topics.
 
Just trying to set the record straight here about what the posts said before someone who never read them start believing this as cold hard fact.
 
 
I too miss Gene, I wonder how many more good people we are going to have to lose before someone stops the bleeding.......

[bearbait]

I saw it too and was also quite shocked by his attitude. So much so that the only thing I could say to him in regards to what he said was "Shame on you Gene".

That must have been close to how I felt about the inflamatory comments that have been made toward me in the past.  But then again,  it depends on who you are, or rather "are not" as to weather you can be a recepient of those type's of comments or not.  Lots of double standards going around this place.

[MommaMia]

The posts Gene made were about Birol's posts about his personal life and that it was rarely anything to do with camping.  Gene never said a word about him posting about camping related topics.
 

True, but "attacks" on people here are not supposed to be tolerated in any circumstance, regardless of what the topic is.  

"That must have been close to how I felt about the inflamatory comments that have been made toward me in the past. But then again, it depends on who you are, or rather "are not" as to weather you can be a recepient of those type's of comments or not. Lots of double standards going around this place."[/ QUOTE][/COLOR]]


Yes, I agree.  I know that you were also treated pretty harshly at times in the past and I'm sorry that a lot of what was posted from others AND you wasn't nipped in the bud at the time.  You'll have to admit ,that some of your past postings were less than ammenable. But it's nice to see that, while you still are a bit hurt by the fact that you thought you were mistreated, (I'm not the one to judge who was right and who was wrong) you didn't take off for good.  Yes, there was a cooling off period, but you are still here and are making a great effort at positive contributions. I wish some of the others who left when all that nastiness went down were still here too. Everyone has a bad day, week, month.  No need to throw away the good stuff just because of a few bad moments. What do they say?  "Throwing the baby out with the bath water"?

If you had left for good it would have been a shame.  And I will miss Gene here too.  I am going to miss a lot of the others that have decided for one reason or another not to renew.





red edit to clarify statements I made

[wiininkwe]

what I said...

among other things

one of the things Gene said was that he was tired of reading about "as Birol's world turns" and he also made references to people who are willing to accept things from others rather than paying full price for them, sort of a veiled criticism of Birol's efforts to save a few bucks.  Birol posts his adventures and problems in the campfire forum, as do many of the rest of us, that's what that forum was provided to us for.   It's where we demonstrate our friendship and support for one another.   As I said, Gene had always been someone who's remarks were never less than fairminded, and open and generous.  The things said in this post, whether Gene actually wrote them or not, were none of those things.   I am not bashing Gene, just not agreeing with the remarks that were made.    
T

[NightOwl]

Sorry Toni, but this is completely wrong. The posts Gene made were about Birol's posts about his personal life and that it was rarely anything to do with camping. Gene never said a word about him posting about camping related topics.
 
Just trying to set the record straight here about what the posts said before someone who never read them start believing this as cold hard fact.
 
 
.......

Bearbait, it's good to see you are still here and participating.  
As for Gene's disapproval of Birol's posts about his personal life, which you mention above, this really took me by surprise-- as I recall, the campfire forum was created for just such types of information or requests for support. Sometimes I think Birol might have accidently posted some of this in the wrong forum but the mods always moved it and besides most of us have done the same dumb thing from time to time.
 
I think it is very valuable for us to still have a member here like you , who is in close touch with those who left and who can continue to share their ideas with us as well as his own. Keep up the good work; a dissenting opinion can be very helpful .

[wiininkwe]

"But then again, it depends on who you are, or rather "are not" as to weather you can be a recepient of those type's of comments or not. Lots of double standards going around this place."
 
 
Bearbait, you've made these same comments before, as tho you believe that some who participate on this forum have some kind of privilege over others.  You never have made it clear who you feel is favored, or what kind of 'special status' they could possibly have.     Anything that any of us says is subject to the same scrutiny from the mods.   No one can be rude or disrespectful to others without coming under fire for it.   A lot of us have been censured for overstepping our bounds at one time or another, you and I both included.   But, there are times when it seems as tho it's important not to wait for a mod to let another member know when they are being a bit too outspoken or disrespectful.  We take a chance when we do that, that we will be misunderstood, or thought too harsh.   To me, the duty to step forward and protest against bad treament of another member makes it worth taking that chance.   I was taught to "do the right thing because it's the right thing to do".  
T

[NightOwl]

That must have been close to how I felt about the inflamatory comments that have been made toward me in the past. But then again, it depends on who you are, or rather "are not" as to weather you can be a recepient of those type's of comments or not. Lots of double standards going around this place.

Bearbait, I think if you go back and look, you'll discover that people here did not call you unkind names or criticise YOU, but disagreed with some of the things you said about people here like Birol or the way the board functions. You sometimes reacted very strongly to this--as most of us have done in the heat of the moment--but the disagreements were not intended to start a war, rather were posted to express another point of view. Do you have any examples of people being abusive to you personally?--if so, the ones who did this could take a look and re-consider how to deal with this in the future  Also, I wonder if others here sometimes felt you went over the line in the matter of civility?
 
Also, I have to respectfully disagree with you about the "double standard"  accusation you have made  against this board.  Precisely what is this statement based on? Dave and the mods are known for being totally even-handed about the way they run things and what they expect of ALL of us.   I wonder if anyone here can give examples of favoritism toward anyone when it came to editing, locking, or deleting threads.   I think it would be very useful to Dave and the moderators for you  to provide  details since this remark  may give new members the wrong impression of what goes on here.

[MommaMia]

Also, I have to respectfully disagree with you about the "double standard"  accusation you have made  against this board.  Precisely what is this statement based on?

The way I see it, BB is talking about how Gene made some negaive comments about another member and his comments were swiftly deleted.  But when all the tension happened before with BB he feels enough action wasn't taken when people were speaking negaitvely about him.  

I agree that most of the criticism BB recieved was in relation to his ideas and comments, and were for the most part not directed at him as a person.  But There WERE comments about trolls. And while noone directly called BB a troll, we all new what the insinuations were.  

All I can say is, while I didn't agree with many of the things BB had been arguing, and I confronted him on a couple of them, I wasn't happy about the real negativity that was here on this board.

 And Elisa, you got some flack too that was undeserved.

 But that's all over and done with, right Guys and Gals?  We learn, we move on...

[MommaMia]

By the way... I think it's very interesting that what started out as a light and "fluffy" post has turned into a serious discussion about important matters!  Now that's a reverse hijack if I ever saw on!

[chasd60]

Precisely what is this statement based on? Dave and the mods are known for being totally even-handed about the way they run things and what they expect of ALL of us. I wonder if anyone here can give examples of favoritism toward anyone when it came to editing, locking, or deleting threads. I think it would be very useful to Dave and the moderators for you to provide details since this remark may give new members the wrong impression of what goes on here.

It may be that 10 people come to the defense of one but those same 10 people do not come to the defense of all, no matter the reason. The attitude seems to be to "tread lightly" when you speak of some but do not do the same for all. I noticed a lot of pouncing in this post when Bearbait merely cleared up the topic of Gene's post. It is like a one-two-three jump on him for what he clarified. Is it the message or the messenger?? I have to wonder..............
 
As far as I'm concerned this thread was hijacked by post #3.

[NightOwl]

It may be that 10 people come to the defense of one but those same 10 people do not come to the defense of all, no matter the reason. The attitude seems to be to "tread lightly" when you speak of some but do not do the same for all. I noticed a lot of pouncing in this post when Bearbait merely cleared up the topic of Gene's post. It is like a one-two-three jump on him for what he clarified. Is it the message or the messenger?? I have to wonder..............
 
As far as I'm concerned this thread was hijacked by post #3.

Charlesd60, as a "Super Moderator" you surely must have the power to delete or edit posts which are unfair to anyone (as you feel post # 3 was.)   Perhaps you ought to do this whenever you see  unacceptable behaviour where someone innocent is being trashed by those  with their own unkind or destructive  agenda.

[wiininkwe]

Okay, I'm going to try to say this as clearly as I can, even tho I don't quite have my thoughts completely together on this.
When I posted and said that I thought Gene's remarks "I'm tired about reading about 'As Birol's world turns'", referred to his many posts about Finally, I was giving my impression of something I saw, that no longer is around to go back and examine.   My interpretation of Gene's remark.
 Along comes Bearbait and says that he is going to clarify this issue by telling us that Gene really meant that he was sick of Birol posting about his personal problems.  Again, the post no longer exsists, can't be examined again.  Bearbait's interpretation of Gene's remarks.
 Gene is also no longer with us, and can't come in and say "Hey, this is what I was trying to say."   Unless of course, he can tell someone else what he meant, and they can post it for us.
  Then, our super mod Chas, comes and says that Bearbait "merely cleared up the topic of Gene's post".   Again, a subjective opinion.  
  But, the thread was hijacked, yes, maybe by post no.3, and yet again when the topic started to change reflecting the opinion Bearbait holds about   But then again, it depends on who you are, or rather "are not" as to weather you can be a recepient of those type's of comments or not. Lots of double standards going around this place.  I asked him who and what he meant by that, and NightOwl asked him the same question (quite independentally from one another, i might add) and he never answered.   Instead, super mod chas now claims that Bearbait has been "pounced on" for his remarks.   The question has never been answered, even tho it's a topic raised often by Bearbait.   My thought on it is, that there are several groups of folks on this board who find things about one another that they can relate to.  Bearbait is part of one of those groups, and they kinda stick together when one of them expresses an opinion.  I also have some close friends(among them Birol) and we kind of stick together because we kinda think alike.  Isn't that normal?  So then, what's the problem with that?
  Now, for my last point, I feel that as a mod, Chas has the responsibility to moderate these kinds of threads.  This instance tho, almost looks like he has entered the debate.  Is that how it's suppose to be done?  I know that he has the right to post as an individual member of the board, not trying to say he shouldn't, but when it's an issue of 'moderating', is his personal opinion suppose to enter the mix?  Just wondering, maybe someone can clarify this for me.
  At any rate, it seems as if this thread has taken on a life of it's own, and I for one am tired of trying to explain my thought processes.  
T

[MommaMia]

I agree that ChasD60's post  is perplexing?(not sure if that's the word I'm looking for...).....Is it meant to contribute to the debate, or was it intended to give a hint of moderation being imposed.  

I think that having a moderator post as a participant in the discussion can cause confusion.  It would be better if the moderators had 2 different screen names to post under.  One to be used as a general member of the board, to post opionins, ideas, questions, just like any other member.  Then another (like Mod1, Mod2, Mod3) for moderating posts.  This would instantly clarify whether the posts are intended to participate in the discussion or to act as moderations.

[griffsmom]

At the risk of unifying everyone against me....
 
 It seems to me that in the big scheme of things this thread, with the exception of the initial post, is completely ridiculous. This is a message board about pop up camping--an interest we all have in common. If Gene or someone posting under his name, posted something that was harsh before moving on to other places in cyber space, then so be it. I know that words can definitely be hurtful and that is a terrible thing to do, but the proper response would have been to report the post to the moderators and then take any discussion about it off the boards. Birol and anyone else on the buddy list could have been e-mailed and comforted and supported there. Instead, this thread has disintegrated into what I would label as "grand-standing," with nothing more than verbal barbs flying back and forth.
 
 I'm not saying that this board is not an important place in many people's lives. I know from reading the Campfire that many people have been able to maintain their sanity when life was treating them badly. I myself have been the focus of someone's less than gracious post, and NNC and SCCampers will never let me live it down, but the important point about that is that the discussion about it was something we took off the boards.
 
 Sometimes, you just have to balance whether something is truly relevant enough to take it to heart or to just let it go. I would suggest that anyone's harsh parting shots should just be let go rather than giving them the invigorated life they have now received from this thread.
 
 I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, and I believe that each of us is entitled to his or her opinion. But when threads start to sound like this one, I think it behooves us all to take a step back and ask how important is this thread really in the big scheme of things. I would hope that all of our lives are more fulfilling than that. Besides, wouldn't we all rather be posting about more fun and exciting things...like pop up camping...or zoom?

[MommaMia]

Point well taken.  

Let's move on shall we gang?  I mean even Bearbait isn't participating in this anymore and he was one of the original players. And gene isn't here to clarify anything for himself so it's a moot discussion.

On to better things, or rather back to the original topic....

I wonder how Birol's roof has turned out!  I wish someone from the group there would update us.

I bet someone has a computer there and if they do, I'll bet they are either shaking their heads at the previous shennaningan we have been up to or are slapping their knees getting a big kick out of our silliness.  God, I hope not!