Sactocampers--take a look at this

[NightOwl]

Hey, Brian, check out the Bantam Flier 18 specs here--we'd order it with just the rear bed and it looks  lightweight enough  for the 6 cyl we have now  and has plenty of room for both of us to be comfortable  when there is a brief rest stop.  I think before long  we might be looking  into an  E-150 for future trips across the "big" hills you-all have out there in the west!

I LOVE the Road Runner TT  floorplans but can hardly find anyone ourside Cal who carries them--and that, after surfing the web this afternoon for several hours in search.  I wrote the company asking them for a  dealer list--but as I recall, the weights are not a whole lot different.

[campingboaters]

Hey Elisa, Just a thought if you are seriously looking into the Bantam...  You can get the front queen sized bed instead of the full sized rear in the bantam flier and still be able to remain hitched with the bed open.  My friend has done that with her Flier several times already.   Also, with the bed up front, they have a GREAT storage area in the back.

[NightOwl]

Thanks for the additional comments , Natacha--these are all things I am making permanent notes of in a little book I  am putting together for the search.

Also, I hate to sound dumb, but can anyone define for me the  terms "wet bath" and "dry bath"?  Brain  mentioned them in one of his posts.  and I have been wondering, so figured this is the time to ask.

[SactoCampers]

Read message below, I hit reply instead of edit.

[SactoCampers]

Elisa,
 
You didn't post a link and Trail-Lite doesn't offer the figures for the Bantam Flier, but I found them at RVWholesalers.com.
 
The Flier 18 I think is too big. But that is just my opinion. With that one you're starting out at over 2600 lbs before any major options. Even loading light, which we do, I anticipate you would be near 3500 lbs with options, two full propane tanks and belongings. My Starcraft sticker states ~2300 lbs with all options (AC, furnace, TV antenna, two propane tanks, outside shower, awning, etc.) and it comes in around 3000 lbs. Width is okay, at 7'3". It's fairly narrow.
 
Natacha is right, you can stay hitched to the tow vehicle with a queen bunk up front. I've done it with mine. Of course, I can't open the rear liftgate. So I think you're better off with the Flier 17 or 17UL. The 17UL is my choice because I love our U-shaped dinette especially after having a popup with side dinette. We take the dinette table in and out when needed. But with it out, it really opens up the floor space and there is much more sitting room. Actually, what I recently did was remove the dinette table permanently. Instead, I cut some plywood to the same dimensions for when we need to set up the bed. When not in use, the plywood slides neatly under one of the bunks, which the dinette table did not. For a table, we use an extremely lightweight aluminum table which is lighter and folds easer than the bulky and heavy dinette. Other nice thing about the U-dinette is you don't have to open the front bunk for you both to sleep on a quick overnighter. It makes to a queen, which a side dinette does not. The rear closet on any of those models is perfect for a retired couple like yourself. Kinda wish I had one myself, it would really reduce the clutter.
 
But like I said, I think a 17-footer is a better match for your Aerostar. I don't really see what you gain with the 18-footer. Of course, you're always welcome to test tow, which I recommend regardless which one you choose.
 
One other major compromise with the Bantams is their grey water tank size. No wonder they don't list their specs online. I wouldn't want anyone to know I was putting a 15-gallon grey water tank in my travel trailers either. We have a 30 gallon tank which gets us through a weekend with two full showers and not much water conservation, but we're full by then. I also bring a small, horizontal plastic gas tank (never used for gas) with a drain cap-to-garden hose adaptor, so I can jettison some grey water in an emergency, but haven't needed to use it. We have an 8-gallon blackwater tank, which also gets us through a weekend without ever using the campground facilities.
 
RV wholesalers used to sell the RoadRunner, but does not appear to anymore.
 
The question of a wet bath is not a dumb one, I just thought you knew the terminology. In your case, it could be very important.
 
A wet bath is where the toilet and shower area share the same space. So when you shower, you're getting the toilet wet...just like in a popup. In a dry bath, you have a separate shower area, usually a small tub in an RV or a corner shower, and then a toilet area. My Starcraft has a wet bath. Many of the newer 17-footers have a dry bath, but to do that they sacrifice an additional cabinet which mine has. I personally need the cabinet space more so I lucked out. BUT, a wet bath is very small. You have to be mobile and somewhat of a contortionist. Also, when showering, your elbows will hit the walls and you'll discover some of the eccentricities of going to the bathroom in such a small space, too. Many people who don't own wet baths complain that they wouldn't want to have to dry the space with a towel all the time. That's not really a problem. It wipes dry very easily and quickly, then we put a bathroom mat down afterwards. No big deal. But it's the space limitations inside that are the real problem. It's possible that may be a problem for your husband. So definitely experiment with trying to move your bodies around inside the wet bath before purchasing.
 
I don't know if you've looked at the Forest River lineup, but the Surveyor 17-footer is fairly light and has a dry bath. But it's 8-feet wide, so you're looking at considerable additional wind resistance. I also haven't seen the specs for the most recent models...only last years.
 
You could also consider a Palomino Stampede 15 or 17, with a wet and dry bath, respectively. They used to both be lightweight, but now Palomino sells them fully optioned only, so keep that in mind when comparing their weights with other brands.
 
If you can, I'd recommend the E-150 first and then you'd have much more flexibility in the type of travel trailer you want. All RVs have some kind of drawbacks, but the small travel trailers and hybrids have some compromises which I don't think you should have to make, not with the considerations you've mentioned and not if you're going to upgrade your tow vehicle down the road. You'd be happier in the long run. Just trying to give you my best advice.

[NightOwl]

well, it is pretty obvious--SO FAR the RoadRunner 160 APPEARS to be  our best bet--IF I CAN FIND ONE!!  it has a workable floor plan (Billy sleeps catty corner on a double bed but it will be OK) and the right stats--nice weight and length and width..   But no info abt  various  tank sizes although it does have a nice dry bath.

We both like the general looks of the floorplan--after all, we wont be in it much except to sleep and have a snack or take a day rest--so it can be a little "claustrophobic" if needed.

It would really help if I could see some pics of the interior or find someone who has one.  AND WHERE IN H*LL CAN YOU FIND A DEALER?  Maybe I will learn that tomorrow.

I must say, the Sun Valley website is almost as lousy as the R-Vision one--practically no info although it does at least have some specs.  Also, their floor plan is pitiful.  And at least they list a phone number.

Anyhow, I am going to call the company tomorrow and ask some detailed questions about the 160.    Will let you-all know what they say.

I had to laugh about the wetbath remarks you made, Brian--I was at an RV dealer the other day and looked inside one of their camper vans with "bathroom"  What a joke--a half-starved Vietnamese refugee MIGHT be able to fit into the "bath" which was about the size of an anaemic broom closet and all I could picture was someone getting STUCK in it or else dislocating something important  trying to use the handheld shower head:J:J:J

[brainpause]

What a joke--a half-starved Vietnamese refugee MIGHT be able to fit into the "bath" which was about the size of an anaemic broom closet and all I could picture was someone getting STUCK in it or else dislocating something important  trying to use the handheld shower head:J:J:J

ROFLMBO

[NightOwl]

ROFLMBO

Yes, Larry, and if you had seen it you'd know that it was a good practice site for some of those tiny Chinese contortionists who turn themselves wrong side out  :yikes: on the telly.

Brian, as to the Palomino and ForestRiver (and also Thor ) products--I am leery of them because of the many negative comments made about them on a bunch of other RV websites.  They may be very good products (although seem a bit heavy for my taste)  but they do seem to have more than their share of "lemon" complaints as I cruise around in search of info.

Billy is thinking that we need to hang on to the Aerostar for now (it is in terrific mechanical shape--we managed to get one of the good ones, I guess) and the  "standard" TrailManor is more than 700 pounds  heavier than the standard RoadRunner.  When I had it CATscaled  with all options  (and nothing in the tanks) it was close to 3,800 lbs and it is not a  really low vehicle (it is almost 6 and a half feet high under tow.)  (This puts the RR only about 1 and a half  feet higher than the TM ) (and the van itself is close to 6'high so there'd be  a two foot by 7 foot space totally exposed to wind drag  with the current van...although I know it is not that simple.)

We'll see what happens when we get a new lightweight TT and pull it awhile with the Aerostar--if it seems to stress the car much , we will get the new vehicle sooner rather than later, but having something that gets 22mpg (when not towing)  out on the road sure looks good at this point with gas so expensive and sure to go up.  I know what the TrailManor does to our overall mileage  --cuts it by abt 4-5 mpg overall so we can compare anything  else we get with that  fuel use.

[NightOwl]

Sent an e-mail; to Sun Valley RV manfr. asking where a dealer is and abt MSRP (about $11 & 1/2K for the 160) for RoadRunners.  Got a reply with info about a dealer only about 100 miles from us.  UP  here in our mountains , like in Cal, 100 miles is no big deal.  I will call them and see what I can  find out.

[SactoCampers]

Brian, as to the Palomino and ForestRiver (and also Thor ) products--I am leery of them because of the many negative comments made about them on a bunch of other RV websites. They may be very good products (although seem a bit heavy for my taste) but they do seem to have more than their share of "lemon" complaints as I cruise around in search of info.
 
Billy is thinking that we need to hang on to the Aerostar for now (it is in terrific mechanical shape--we managed to get one of the good ones,

Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure you ended up with a trailer you know you want, not just one that your vehicle can tow (maybe) and then immediately have to purchase a stronger tow vehicle, which would have allowed you to purchase the trailer you really wanted.
 
I'd be ecstatic if I could get 22 mpg with my T&C. AWD drops my average to 19 in mixed driving.
 
with A/C, the trailer height increases to over 9 feet, but that doesn't add much to the wind resistance. I do feel the added wind resistance, but the van can push through it relatively easily. But the Road Runner I think is 7.5 feet wide so your front profile is considerably greater than mine. A Trailmanor at 6.5 ft imposes almost no additional wind resistance. An extra 1.5 feet adds considerable wind resistance since the trailer is now above the minivan.
Also consider the RR's front wall is nearly vertical, my Starcraft's is angled quite a bit, which helps considerably with wind resistance, which I can confirm anecdotally in my comparison of towing a smaller but vertical front U-Haul trailer: 10 mpg towing the U-Haul vs. 12 mpg with the hybrid. I think the U-Haul trailer had a heavy dry weight as I was only moving a couch and desk. I also have a completely sealed aluminum-type undercarriage. Check the RR and see if it does too. This helps reduce wind resistance as well. Not trying to imply mine is "better", just small things that help with towability and to help with your comparisons amongst trailers. Not trying to discourage, either, just perspective from another minivan tower.
 
Test tow with a full freshwater and grey water tank and you'll have the equivalent to a fully loaded trailer. Even if that is more weight than you think you'll carry, you'll at least know how the vehicle will tow under a worst-case scenario. The dealership might look at you funny, but it's worth it. I know the guy I bought from thought I was crazy, but then again, he was towing my hybrid with a 3.0 liter V6 Ford Ranger.

[NightOwl]

Brian, I am  priinting all this up so I will have hardcopy to refer to when I go to a dealer. of ANY kind of hybrid or TT--it is  extremely useful, and you have geven  me perspectives on towing which no one else has ever provided.  Thank you very much.

Yes, I have been wondering about a "test tow"  now for quite some time.  And I am glad you brought it up.  Does anyone know--how do dealers feel about this?  Do they allow it--is their insurance set up for it?  How would I manage the hitch receiver  compatability question if I went to a dealer and he said I could test-tow?

As for the RR--the 160 is an acceptable floor plan for us--Shadow Cruiser doesnt offer one which we like as well although it is almost as lightweight and seems to be well constructed and finished.  Al pointed out the lightweight Springdale models to me; very nice  but again, not quite  light enough.

And BTW, I also noticed the front"slope" of these small guys--the TrailCruisers & Bantams seem to offer the most aerodynamic profile in that regard.  Much more than the RR.  And I saw pics of your Starcraft model-- and yes, I did notice that it is sloped enough to make a   diffference in wind drag.

I also am not at all averse to getting something that is not new--our 68 Skamper  was used and it could not have been in better shape if new.  And of course, you save a pile of  $$  in some cases as well.  One  problem though,  is with a lot of  those older, small guys is that they are not particularly light or aerodynamic since they were built before gas prices went nuts.

[campingboaters]

The dealer from where I bought my campers lets you test tow a camper, but I know not all dealers will bother with that amount of trouble.  Still, I would think if you push the issue and they want the sale enough, they should accomodate you with a test tow as well as letting you set up and break down the camper (especially if you look at any hybrids), so that you can see if the setup and tear down is something you can handle on your own or even want to do with you next camper into the future.

[NightOwl]

thanks,Natacha, it is good to know that  more than one member here has been able  to test-tow an RV.  Makes lots of sense to me--after all, if you are buying a car you get to try it out and--after all, if an RV is not towable by your own vehicle, seems like it would be hell on earth--and lots of sales people are willing to  say, "Oh, SURE, Lady--you can tow that 4,500 lb behemoth with your 6cyl Toyota sedan."

I know ONE thing for sure, before we buy anything to replace our TM, we are really going to push dealers for a test.

Now, next question--what does one do about a hitch when you want to test tow?  Our E-qualizer WDH has a pretty big ball receiver (not sure of size just now) and some of the lighter TT's may not be towable with it?

[SactoCampers]

When I bought my popup new, I made the sale conditional on a satisfactory test tow. My RV dealer obliged.
 
When I bought my hybrid used, same condition. The owner obliged.
 
In both cases they came along for the ride. So expect the same. For a test tow, the more weight the better, since the trailer is not loaded up with camping gear.
 
I think the RR has a 2" coupler, since I once inquired to a dealer in SoCal about renting one. Only size larger would be a 2 5/8" or 2 3/4" (I can't remember which, now...it's one of those two), and that would be overkill for such a small trailer. Check the ball on your drawbar. It should state the size. The dealer should be able to swap one ball for the other in about 5 minutes while you're looking through the trailer. Concede test towing without the WDH until you make a purchase and they can install the mounts on the trailer frame. If the trailer tracks well without WD/Anti-sway, then assume it will do even better with. If your drawbar and ball are incompatible with the trailer, the dealer should let you borrow a drawbar and ball just for test tow purposes. Hopefully I understood your question correctly.

[NightOwl]

Yes, you did understand the question perfectly and gave me a very useful answer, Brian.  I checked and our hitch receiver ball is a 2" one  so it should not be difficult to find something to tow with that.

I probably wont make a final decision until next spring  but in the meantime, I am going to gather as much info as I can and then get some practical experience in looking at some  trailers in detail.

I know this next idea is going to sound crazy--really crazy!   but, you know how the RV companies are always saying, "let us build a trailer for you--just go ahead and tell us what you want and we will build it for you just as you ask."?  Well, we have the Thetford electric Porta-Potti and we love it and   it is lots easier to take care of when we are without hookups than a standard fixed marine or other bolted down rv toilet.  I dont see why I couldnt  get a TT ordered without the toilet they usually put in them  and use ours instead?  It has a perfectly adequate  capacity and is easy to deal with logistically  (and is lighterweight with no  built-in toilet system required )