What's in a name?

[Kelly]

Must say ~ with all the brouhaha over the Coleman license these days ~ I'd buy the other trailer.  Always thought Coleman (by Fleetwood) were overhyped, overpriced  and (especially) overweight, too.[/FONT]

[byrdr1]

When I bought my PU. I had just left the dealers lot that sold Coleman's.
I was impressed with the coleman's but not the dealer. He made me feel like I wasn't on his radar. He was like are you sure you only want a PU. I wasn't sure what I wanted, I was looking....
I drove across the street and looked at Vikings. I bought a Viking! One it was priced more in line with budget, Had more bang for my dollars and the Dealer treated me with respect.. Which goes along way with me... I have had nothing but good service from my PU and the dealer was wonderful on the one warranty issue and the one other problem that was fixed on time and done right. When I started looking at TT's, I went back to both dealers to just view their TT line. Again The Coachmen dealer was above and beyond the other who sold Fleetwood's. The Coachman's just did not have the floor plan we liked and we ended up with a Fleetwood that we bought used. and the that dealer is 100 miles away from me. BUT they treated me respectfully and earned my business. So much so that I bought the TT and I still have the PU. After not camping in it for over a year now. We used it this past weekend for over flow at the beach. And everything was fine with it. I have had it open several times this spring & summer so I have been able to keep it clean and make sure it was in working..
SO bottom line...
Name might help, but the dealers what sold me... I do buy Coleman, I have 3 xtreme coolers, lanterns, propane trees, sleeping bags, etc.. But the quality & price on these is again the selling point..

[Steve-o-bud]

All,
...
 They even had the best Website. Fleetwood went a head and screwed that up too.
 
 ...
 

I must agree about the Web site. The Coleman website was great. You could compare models, price the options, do the virtual tour of the floor plans, etc...
 
I like researching my purchases on-line, and Coleman's site sold me on their products...
 
The other manufacturers didn't even come close on their web sites...
 
 
As for the name, I think that the name did sway me, as well as Coleman's general reputation for quality... although I realize that there were issues with problems.

[copcarguy]

I do not blame Coleman from wanting to distance themselves from Fleetwood.  I have "real" Coleman camping equipment that has lasted forever...  I have an old Coleman stove that my grandpa had that still works flawlessly.  I have a second stove that my Dad found on the side of the New York State Thruway when he was a supervisor on the Tappan Zee Bridge, it was dented from falling off of whomevers car, we banged out the dents, and THAT one has worked for 20 years now too...
 
We bought a brand new 2001 Coleman Taos based on the fact that it had "Coleman" on the side...  I thought that Coleman actually MADE the PU, but afterwards learned that Fleetwood did.  It was a complete POS after a few times camping...  I know it wasn't the way we treated it because we are WAY above average in the care of our stuff.  (My camping friends here can confirm how nuts I am.)  There was nothing majorly wrong with it, just a BUNCH of little things that when you put them all together should NOT have happened in a brand new trailer.  They annoyed me so much that we traded it in in 2003 thinking we got a lemon or something...  My brand new 2003 Coleman Carmel CP now has a bunch of little things breaking just like the Taos and I hate it now too.  I can't wait to dump it in the spring.
 
I am sure the crap that Fleetwood has been building has hurt the Coleman name, and I don't blame Coleman one bit from running from Fleetwood as fast as they can.  I can't wait to run away from Fleetwood products myself.

[Adam]

I Base my purchases on quality, value, known service history. We buy Hondas, and Fleetwoods.... IMO there is no better p/up camper then a Fleetwood and there sales are the facts.  This discussion is one of the reasons I'm glad we live in great country which is driven by capitalism otherwise know as our enconimic system and use the educated buyers (Sometimes)

What drives any company easy formula Sales=$$$$ and market surveys spend millions every year to study how to catch 1st time buyers of any product. Check any RV brochure it seems people in the pictures are in heaven, take for example the new Fleetwood brochure the campers are sitting in wide open fields with no cables or hoses to deal with no tight spots to back-up into, cleary targeted @ the first time RV buyer. BTW where is the rain in those pictures..LOL ~

I agree many cases purchasers don't look past names. Great statement and case study by COPGUY cleary to some name means everything.... any many others who didn't find PUT in time before they purchase there first camper. It could be of value to have a Coleman sticker on the side of that product. BTW My very first pop-up was a Nimrod, my second was a Rockwood, Now I own a Coleman p/up by Fleetwood and really enjoy the trailer.  


I truly wish besides having discusions about mfg's of pop-ups we could wake-up some campground owners to what it takes to get campers to come and enjoy a stay @ there campgrounds !

[tlhdoc]

The fact is Fleetwood has dropped down in their share of the market.  Is it due to the loss of the Coleman name?  Is that why Fleetwood is trying so hard to get the name back?  My first PU was a Coleman.  I have seen the quality go down since then.  As far at what people want in a campground, that varies.  You love the Pine Grove KOA.  You think it is a great place, but I only go there in the off season and only if I am camping with other people that are camping there.  I don't like having people packed in all around me.  Some time when you are camping in my area I would like to show you the type of campsite that I LOVE, and what I like in a campground.  Lots of space, room between sites so you don't bother anyone and no one is bothering you with noise, a stream running by and trees for shade.

[Adam]

Tracy...The numbers speak the truth....Sales climbed to $712.3 million from $674.7 million

Results, which were below analysts' estimates, came as the operating income at its RV group dropped by almost half to $8.6 million. Within that group, motor homes boosted operating income by 3 percent. But towables reported an operating loss of $6.5 million, compared with a year-earlier profit of $1.7 million.

If what you are saying is true, then it appears Fleetwood will have no choice but to stop producing pop-ups over the next few years, however I think there is more behind these numbers such as paydown debt and captial investment...excess inventory, pension payouts.

"Towable (RVs) have been problematic for the better part of two years now," noted Barbara Allen, an analyst with Natexis Bleichroeder Inc. who has the shares rated "fair value." "It just hasn't come around," she said.

By the way Thank you for saying what I want campgrounds down here to hear that "I don't like having people packed in all around me.  Lots of space, room between sites so you don't bother anyone and no one is bothering you with noise, a stream running by and trees for shade".  Maybe some clean bathrooms too ! Tracy you are lucky you live in PA but us Jersey campers are not as lucky are state parks are not open to RVers. Yes you can dry camp if you bring your own water but  for  most RVers not welcome...Jersey only wants tenters ~ So as you stated campgrounds around New Jersey are like Twin Grove...BTW I love Frontier Town too for the kids but here it goes from being packed in like pigs to Sardines just get me a can opener to get out of my camper, the flip side is that we love all the amenties for the kids and @ $ 60.00 night they are booked complete weeks for the next two summers, only 5 days openings here and there so they are also doing something right catering Sardines    I can understand why our camprgounds have this problem while I'm paying almost $ 8000.00 a year in property tax for 100 x 100 lot, and LIsa's brother just told use @ Thanksgiving he is now paying over $ 13,000 for his home so I feel lucky ! But we want to live in the Garden state ~ with that said I can only imagine what these poor NJ campgounds pay in property tax with only  a source of income for several months a year !

[Tim5055]

I am sure the crap that Fleetwood has been building has hurt the Coleman name, and I don't blame Coleman one bit from running from Fleetwood as fast as they can.  I can't wait to run away from Fleetwood products myself.

The only problem with this theory is that Coleman dumped Fleetwood due to quality issues.

Coleman dumped Fleetwood for "licensing" issues, i.e. money.

Fleetwood began branding a new line of campers (the Caravan) with the Coleman name and Coleman wanted a bigger piece of the pie

Money is what this issue was and is all about.

[Civil_War_Buff]

Money is what this issue was and is all about.

Tim,

I had read that quality was a big reason for the split up as well.  Can you please cite your source that indicates it was all about money and only money?  I figure you must have access to information that the rest of us don't.

Thanks.

[mike4947]

The source is the lawsuit. American Home the owner of the Coleman name cut off Fleetwood from the licensing agreement due to Fleetwood's use of the name on their new line of Hybrid trailers. American Home said the trailers were not covered under the licensing agreement and needed to be negotiated seperately. Fleetwood of course disagreed and presto the lawyers started getting rich.

While JMHO I do think there might be something to the quality issue in the split there is nothing written about that other than hearsay and opinions of outsiders.

[Civil_War_Buff]

The source is the lawsuit. American Home the owner of the Coleman name cut off Fleetwood from the licensing agreement due to Fleetwood's use of the name on their new line of Hybrid trailers. American Home said the trailers were not covered under the licensing agreement and needed to be negotiated seperately. Fleetwood of course disagreed and presto the lawyers started getting rich.

While JMHO I do think there might be something to the quality issue in the split there is nothing written about that other than hearsay and opinions of outsiders.

So where can I find the ENTIRE transcript of the lawsuit?  I have seen exceprts as has everyone and "press releases" from the parties involved in the suit, but I am sure that the lawsuit goes way beyond just money.  I say this because I have read where the abs roof issue was mentioned as a quality point of contention, as were other concerns about quality.

Thanks.

[Adam]

So where can I find the ENTIRE transcript of the lawsuit?  I have seen exceprts as has everyone and "press releases" from the parties involved in the suit, but I am sure that the lawsuit goes way beyond just money.  I say this because I have read where the abs roof issue was mentioned as a quality point of contention, as were other concerns about quality.

Thanks.

Civil War Buff....Do you have any barrister friends ?  If yes, ask them if they could pull the transripts of Westlaw for you. I will check with my wifes friend too.

I'm with Tim this was over one thing $$$ not quality, The ABS roof was handled very well by Fleetwood as I have been told by dealers that some not so nice dealers even went as far taking advantage of Fleetwoods policy to replace ABS roofs, and offered owners new roofs with no defects or second roofs even third roofs....yet Fleetwood really put the customers first and didn't questions the dealers in most cases. I have heard this from several dealers all who also sell other pop-ups. It's hard to prove in court what is consider poor quality, trust me I have worked on Six Sigma projects...The statistical representation of Six Sigma describes quantitatively how a process is performing. As long as the quality is meet during production at set bench mark test levels. Keep in mind these are travel trailers with an average life of ten years, just like your car and hot water heater there built around a replacement factor, and if your Coleman you would push Fleetwood hard to turnover units. Bottom Line the balance sheet needs to report black ink sometimes and red when the reasons are  known ~

[tlhdoc]

The ABS roof was handled very well by Fleetwood

Adam you will find a lot of people (me included) that will strongly disagree with you on that statement.  My "free" replacement roof only cost me $300.  Other original owners will have to pay $750 or more for their "free" replacement roof.  If you are not an original owner you can end up paying $3000 or more for you replacement roof.  Oh and by the way Fleetwood wasn't eating the cost of all of the "free" roofs.  The were getting free replacement roofs from the company that made the ABS roof, until they went out of business.  Maybe that is why the shipping is so high on the "free" replacement roofs now.

[tlhdoc]

Here is my thoughts on why Coleman wanted their name back.


Poor quality = lower sales on Coleman PUs and it hurts the Coleman name  in general = fewer sales and fewer royalties on all Coleman brand products.  Not just PUs.

[Tim5055]

My "free" replacement roof only cost me $300.

Tracy,

FFT has always lived up to the letter of their warranty, and for a long time went over and above by waving the freight.  That the freight was reimbursed by the supplier is a matter of conjecture; maybe yes, maybe no.

The problem arose when they stopped paying for the freight.  Those who "only" got a free roof feel cheated.