Battery Connection

[AustinBoston]

tlhdoc is absolutely correct. I would just like to elaborate on the the "Converter".

Many people think that the converter (it is not an inverter) is designed to "Charge" the battery. That is a mis-perception. The converter is designed to take the load off of the camper battery. It takes the "shore power" (110v AC) and outputs about 12v - 12.2v DC. That is not sufficient voltage to charge the battery, merely to run the camper's 12v accessories and prevent discharge of the battery.

This was true at one time, but no more.

First, my converter has separate outputs for the battery and the pop-up.  It puts out 12.7V on the pop-up side whenever there is shore power.

What happens on the battery side is a bit more complex.  If it detects a load on the battery (or detects the battery is in a discharged or partly discharged state) it's output to the battery goes to 14.4V (with a 20 amp current limit).  Total converter output is limited to 25 amps.

After some period of time, (I think 4 hours), if it decides the battery still isn't charged, it will drop to 13.8 volts.  There is another circumstance (charge level?) where it drops to 13.8 volts.

If, after 48 hours, it detects no battery use, it disconnects from the battery except to monitor for use.  During that time, it will put 13.8V on the battery for ten minutes out of every 48 hours.

That's a lot more than "discharge preventor" and is probably more sophisticated than most "automatic" battery chargers out there.

This is the standard converter on some Fleetwood models (the ones that were "Elite" under the Coleman name) for at least three years.  It wasn't standard on my model at the time, but it's what I got from a fleetwood dealer when my original converter gave up the ghost.

Austin

[dthurk]

Our converter seems to work along the lines outlined by AB.  When charging, the converter fan comes on.  Apparently it's working pretty hard to charge that battery.  Our converter is a 25 amp version.  Maybe smaller converters work differenly.
 
We also have a 3 stage charger to charge independently.  DW also charges independently, but that should be another thread.

[wavery]

I stand corrected . I should have stated that some (if not most) model converters do not have battery charging capabilities.

My 2002 Coleman puts out 12.2v max. It has no battery charging capacity. My brother has a TT that he bought (new) 2 years ago. I believe it is a 2004 model. It also has no battery charging capacity. Last year, we were at Doheny SP together. He asked me to check his batteries for him because he didn't know how to check the water. I checked the water and the voltage. The batteries were at 12.2V, exactly the voltage that the converter was putting out. In fact, it has the exact same converter that mine has, only it is a 30A and mine is a 20A.

I, personally, think that these converters are silly :eyecrazy: . I plan to re-wire my camper exactly the same way that my boat was wired. I am going to run the (00 size) battery cables from the battery to a 12v circuit breaker panel on the inside of the camper, then run the 110v through a separate circuit breaker panel. I will merely leave the battery charger inside the camper (plugged into the 110V) and leave it hooked up permanently to the battery cables.

This may not be the best solution for people that camp with hook-ups on a regular basis. However, I almost always dry camp. It seems silly, to me, to run the 12V battery current through the converter to run my lights, w/pump and 12v accessories. It seems far more efficient to run them straight off of the batteries (through a circuit breaker panel). All boats are wired that way. I don't understand why campers use these converters :confused: .

The voltage loss, going through that converter, is very annoying to me. I lived with 12V current on my yacht for 14 years and never experienced all this silliness of dimming lights when the water pump or furnace is running :mad: . I am also convinced that the converter uses up some of the current. It has to..... the mere fact that the wires run through it causes resistance which burns up watts for no reason IMHO.

[dthurk]

I stand corrected . I should have stated that some (if not most) model converters do not have battery charging capabilities.

My 2002 Coleman puts out 12.2v max. It has no battery charging capacity. My brother has a TT that he bought (new) 2 years ago. I believe it is a 2004 model. It also has no battery charging capacity. Last year, we were at Doheny SP together. He asked me to check his batteries for him because he didn't know how to check the water. I checked the water and the voltage. The batteries were at 12.2V, exactly the voltage that the converter was putting out. In fact, it has the exact same converter that mine has, only it is a 30A and mine is a 20A.

I, personally, think that these converters are silly :eyecrazy: . I plan to re-wire my camper exactly the same way that my boat was wired. I am going to run the (00 size) battery cables from the battery to a 12v circuit breaker panel on the inside of the camper, then run the 110v through a separate circuit breaker panel. I will merely leave the battery charger inside the camper (plugged into the 110V) and leave it hooked up permanently to the battery cables.

This may not be the best solution for people that camp with hook-ups on a regular basis. However, I almost always dry camp. It seems silly, to me, to run the 12V battery current through the converter to run my lights, w/pump and 12v accessories. It seems far more efficient to run them straight off of the batteries (through a circuit breaker panel). All boats are wired that way. I don't understand why campers use these converters :confused: .

The voltage loss, going through that converter, is very annoying to me. I lived with 12V current on my yacht for 14 years and never experienced all this silliness of dimming lights when the water pump or furnace is running :mad: . I am also convinced that the converter uses up some of the current. It has to..... the mere fact that the wires run through it causes resistance which burns up watts for no reason IMHO.

I would think the converters are there for those of us who camp with shore power electric.  It appears to be an easy way to power the 12v side of the camper and charge the battery at the same time while plugged in, unless I'm not really understanding your set up "a la" marine, which very well may be.  

We haven't dry camped yet.  DW is resistant.  I'd like to try it.  She doesn't believe she can live without the "amenities".  I'd provide the amenities, only with 12v and propane instead of 110v.  I don't think I've convinced her yet.  Anyone use a 12v hair curler?  Do they make one that uses propane?  Wow!  What a concept!  Curl that hair in 3 seconds.

[wavery]

I would think the converters are there for those of us who camp with shore power electric.  It appears to be an easy way to power the 12v side of the camper and charge the battery at the same time while plugged in, unless I'm not really understanding your set up "a la" marine, which very well may be.  

We haven't dry camped yet.  DW is resistant.  I'd like to try it.  She doesn't believe she can live without the "amenities".  I'd provide the amenities, only with 12v and propane instead of 110v.  I don't think I've convinced her yet.  Anyone use a 12v hair curler?  Do they make one that uses propane?  Wow!  What a concept!  Curl that hair in 3 seconds.

Actually, they do make gas hair curlers :
 http://cgi.ebay.com/BNIP-CONAIR-CORDLESS-CURLING-IRON-BRUSH_W0QQitemZ9502942136QQcategoryZ116165QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It sounds to me like you need an inverter though. We have a 2500W inverter. We use it to run the microwave, blow dryer, hair curler and any other 110v appliance. We also have a small 400W inverter. That runs her hair curler just fine. You can pick them up for under $50 and they are 95% efficient.  The bigger ones are only about 90% efficient.

[dthurk]

Actually, they do make gas hair curlers :
 http://cgi.ebay.com/BNIP-CONAIR-CORDLESS-CURLING-IRON-BRUSH_W0QQitemZ9502942136QQcategoryZ116165QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It sounds to me like you need an inverter though. We have a 2500W inverter. We use it to run the microwave, blow dryer, hair curler and any other 110v appliance. We also have a small 400W inverter. That runs her hair curler just fine. You can pick them up for under $50 and they are 95% efficient.  The bigger ones are only about 90% efficient.

Too bad!  Another money making idea stolen by someone else.  99 cents isn't bad, less than $10 with shipping.  Wonder how they figured $8.10 shipping?  I'll bet it would get expensive fast, though, if I started bidding.  Might be a good item for a snipe.    

I had considered buying an inverter.  It's not really necessary at this point, as all our camping is with at least electric and we can plug in anything we want.  Someday we'll be dry camping, though.  I may gradually buy the needed items as we go.

[wavery]

Too bad!  Another money making idea stolen by someone else.  99 cents isn't bad, less than $10 with shipping.  Wonder how they figured $8.10 shipping?  I'll bet it would get expensive fast, though, if I started bidding.  Might be a good item for a snipe.    

I had considered buying an inverter.  It's not really necessary at this point, as all our camping is with at least electric and we can plug in anything we want.  Someday we'll be dry camping, though.  I may gradually buy the needed items as we go.

Actually, the cost doesn't stop at the inverter. Anyone that may be thinking of getting an inverter should know that you really should have a minimum of 2 - 27 series deep cycle batteries.

Our microwave only draws 1000W but at 12v that's 80A. That's not a big deal in overall consumption because you only run the microwave for, maybe, 5 minutes. So your consumption is only 7A. The problem is, an 80A load on a single battery for 5 minutes is a lot. It won't be a problem in the short term but over the long haul, it would be far better to spread that type of amperage over 2 batteries and effectively cut the stress in half.

When we dry camp, which is 90% of the time, we don't do without at all. You would never even know that we weren't hooked up. The only thing is, if we stay out more than 2 days, we have to charge the batteries for about 8 hours. A normal weekend is no problem. However, on the 3rd day, we to get out the generator (another expense). Don't let anyone tell you that dry camping is cheaper. It just simply isn't, unless you are willing to do without certain things.....like electricity.

[tlhdoc]

Actually Don't let anyone tell you that dry camping is cheaper. It just simply isn't, unless you are willing to do without certain things.....like electricity.

We dry camp all the time, and with our 12 volt electricity.  I don't take things like curling irons, microwaves, etc, camping, even when we have an electric hook up site.  I think you are over stating it when you say dry camping isn't cheaper unless you do without.  The only electrical item we don't use dry camping is the air conditioner.  You apparently bring/need a lot of electrical stuff when you camp that we don't.  We have camped 13 days on one group 31 battery without needing to have it recharged.  We used lights(electric), the water pump (electric), fans (electric), etc.  It is much cheaper at most campgrounds to have a no hookup site, or even cheaper if you camp in the wilderness where the camping is free.

[wavery]

I think you are over stating it when you say dry camping isn't cheaper unless you do without.  

Of course, you're right. When I said, "Do without". I meant the items that I was talking about IE, microwave, hair blower etc.

Most people can camp perfectly comfortably without that stuff. So can we, we just prefer to use it because we can .

[dthurk]

Actually, the cost doesn't stop at the inverter. Anyone that may be thinking of getting an inverter should know that you really should have a minimum of 2 - 27 series deep cycle batteries.

Our microwave only draws 1000W but at 12v that's 80A. That's not a big deal in overall consumption because you only run the microwave for, maybe, 5 minutes. So your consumption is only 7A. The problem is, an 80A load on a single battery for 5 minutes is a lot. It won't be a problem in the short term but over the long haul, it would be far better to spread that type of amperage over 2 batteries and effectively cut the stress in half.

When we dry camp, which is 90% of the time, we don't do without at all. You would never even know that we weren't hooked up. The only thing is, if we stay out more than 2 days, we have to charge the batteries for about 8 hours. A normal weekend is no problem. However, on the 3rd day, we to get out the generator (another expense). Don't let anyone tell you that dry camping is cheaper. It just simply isn't, unless you are willing to do without certain things.....like electricity.

I would think dry camping specific equipment could be bought over time, at least spreading out the cost.  For the microwave, if it's the biggest draw you've got, seems to me like it would be more effective to run the generator for 5 minutes to power the microwave and save the batteries.  I'd probably just as soon leave the microwave home.  We're already set up for outdoor cooking with propane and briquettes.

[wynot]

Kershner the black wire is the POS and the white is the NEG on the Coleman/Fleetwood trailers. Check your battery wires. The black wire has the circuit braker on it, Honest, I just went and looked at mine. You had me half convinced that I had it backward.:eyecrazy:

Sorry Tracy...
 
I haven't YET looked at mine...

[wynot]

I stand corrected . I should have stated that some (if not most) model converters do not have battery charging capabilities.
 
My 2002 Coleman puts out 12.2v max. It has no battery charging capacity. My brother has a TT that he bought (new) 2 years ago. I believe it is a 2004 model. It also has no battery charging capacity. Last year, we were at Doheny SP together. He asked me to check his batteries for him because he didn't know how to check the water. I checked the water and the voltage. The batteries were at 12.2V, exactly the voltage that the converter was putting out. In fact, it has the exact same converter that mine has, only it is a 30A and mine is a 20A.
 

My Coleman's converter is putting out about 13.6 V when there are no 12 V (other than the detector) running.  Put a light or two on, and the voltage drops to 12.9 or so, but still charging.  Have the water pump kick on, and it drops below the 12.6.
 
If your converter is putting out only 12.2 V, you are effectively discharging the battery, as it seems like most of them I've checked have a standing voltage of 12.7-12.8 V (higher than a normal 12.6 fully charged voltage on an automotive starting battery).

[wynot]

Sorry Tracy...
 
I haven't YET looked at mine...

Black is pos, white is neg just as was noted.  I thought otherwise, when I had disconnected the battery a few days earlier.

[wavery]

I would think dry camping specific equipment could be bought over time, at least spreading out the cost.  For the microwave, if it's the biggest draw you've got, seems to me like it would be more effective to run the generator for 5 minutes to power the microwave and save the batteries.  I'd probably just as soon leave the microwave home.  We're already set up for outdoor cooking with propane and briquettes.

The microwave doesn't use up a lot of battery storage capacity. When we do use it, which is often, at least every morning before the end of "quiet time", it demands enough amperage for a short period of time to heat up one battery. That's the reason that I suggest having 2 batteries if you are going to start using an inverter and 110v appliances.

We camped this entire weekend without starting the generator once. We used the inverter quite a few times for different 110v appliances, including the microwave oven. In total, I would say that the microwave ran about 30 minutes which would be about 40A of battery capacity.

That's the beauty of the inverter. You don't have to go out and start the generator to operate 110v appliances for a short period of time. You can also use your 110v appliances during quiet time. If the batteries get low, I just run my generator with the battery charger all day (about 8 hrs usually does it) during daytime hours to charge the batteries and use whatever I want. Then I'm good to go for a couple more days without running the generator at all. My Honda EU2000I generator is very quiet and can hardly be noticed outside my campsite. When not in use, I just lock it in the trunk of my car.

[AustinBoston]

My Honda EU2000I generator ... When not in use, I just lock it in the trunk of my car.

I wonder what your insurance agent and/or state laws would say about that.  Do you drain the gas tank (or run it dry)?

Austin