Gas Prices UP,UP,UP

[raptor]

(snip)...
While there is no doubt that a long term solution to this problem must be found, to take any personal gratification in this potential economy-collapsing nightmare is absurd. Sorry, but that's MY personal opinion of your statement. Take a poll of how many people think the current situation is good and oil company executives and leaders of OPEC will more then likely be the only ones on the list with you. That's some pretty impressive company to be in, isn't it?

I can't see where anyone not reaping some type of staggering compensation from this fiasco could find a single shred of good in this. Guess it's pretty obvious how livid I am, huh? :swear:

Are you livid enough to go fight in our nation's wars borne of a foreign policy driven largely by oil concerns?  Because that's exactly what many of us are doing - because you and many others demand cheap gas.  You may think I'm absurd for taking gratification in seeing rising gas prices, but I say you are absurd for being satisfied with the status quo which results in me dodging bullets on battlefields year after year so you can have your cheap gas.  I don't want high prices so executives can have compensation.  I want high prices so we can eventually put them out of business for good.  We will not see the motivation among our people/gov't/industries to solve this problem until we all feel significant pain.  So like I said before, pay up and feel some pain.  I certainly have been, and in your name.  If you're not comfortable with the execs compensation, then sell your stock in their companies and start riding your bicycle.  I put 3000 miles on my bike last year (a rare year in which I was not deployed for the duration).

It is not a basic "right" as a human being or as an American to have cheap gas.  We will pay market rates for the luxury of fuel to burn.  If the rates are prohibitive to a person, then the person needs to change lifestyle, as difficult as it may be.  It is not a basic right to be able to live 60 miles from your workplace and commute in a low-MPG vehicle.  Change jobs or move.  It isn't easy and it isn't convenient but so what.

If you think you are powerless to do anything about it, it is only because you are unwilling to make the uncomfortable changes needed.  Well, forgive me if that angers me.  I've been plenty uncomfortable in recent years.

Our economy needs a massive overhaul to get off the dependancy.  Vehicle consumption is only a tiny part of the issue.  It can't happen all at once.  But it won't even start to happen until we pay high prices for it, making the change a necessity.

As long as we are paying dirt cheap prices for fuel then people will remain ridiculously complacent.

Just my humble opinions on things.  I've been wrong plenty of times before.  I'm not trying to be confrontational.  This is just a pet peeve of mine - and I think I've paid my dues to have a strong opinion about it.

cheers.

[SpeakEasy]

Exactly.

High gasoline prices are probably the only motivator that will result in our inventing of alternative means of transportation.

[raptor]

Ok, I feel bad about my posts now.  One of the reasons I found this forum refreshing while researching my new PU, etc, is because it is mostly devoid of political types of bantering and other weighty issues, and now I am participating in just that.  So I apologize, and I'll try to refrain on this issue now (no promises though! ).

Cheers.

[SpeakEasy]

Hey raptor - I know what you mean about the nature of this forum. And I agree with you about it.

However - don't feel bad. You're talking about what is probably the #1 most important issue of our era. We have to be able to solve it, or we're all toast.

OK - back to camping discussion now.

[TheViking]

$3.01 at 7-eleven yesterday and still rising.

[Old Goat]

I have heard that Brazil does not import oil anymore because all vehicles there now run on pure ethanol which it produces from it's vast sugar crops....Anybody know anything about this?...

[raptor]

I have heard that Brazil does not import oil anymore because all vehicles there now run on pure ethanol which it produces from it's vast sugar crops....Anybody know anything about this?...

I'm not an expert on their situation, but I have read some about it.  They still consume plenty of oil, but they have reduced it enough that they are a "net exporter" of oil.  Meaning, they extract enough from the earth for their own use plus some.  

They do indeed have a very aggressive and successful ethanol production.  But they still consume plenty of oil.  Even the production of ethanol requires oil consumption (if I understand it right - correct me if I'm wrong).  

Either way, they have done well to put themselves in an enviable situation - for at least as long as their natural oil supplies last.

disclaimer - I got the info I mention from some dude called an "expert" on NPR.  If he was wrong, then I'm wrong too.  I'm assuming he knew what he was talking about.

[wynot]

I'm not an expert on their situation, but I have read some about it. They still consume plenty of oil, but they have reduced it enough that they are a "net exporter" of oil. Meaning, they extract enough from the earth for their own use plus some.
 
They do indeed have a very aggressive and successful ethanol production. But they still consume plenty of oil. Even the production of ethanol requires oil consumption (if I understand it right - correct me if I'm wrong).
 

If I remember the details right, they have to still start the vehicles on gasoline and then switch over to ethanol - which has always been one of the problems with the vaporization of the cold ethanol/methanols.  So they have a starter tank and a fuel tank.
 
Ethanol itself is a pretty decent solution, as it doesn't eat fuel line components like methanol.  Where we all lose with it, is that although it has the octane, it doesn't have the BTU content, which in short means that you get worse gas mileage.  I think it is also burns invisibly, which isn't good if you have a vehicle fire.
 
In the States, ethanol production is subsidized, so it is probably about cost effective in production right now with these gas prices.  I would be more than happy to run on M85 or other gasohol blends, IF I wasn't paying the same price as I would for pure gasoline.  If I'm not going as far on a fillup, I don't think I should have to pay the same for less fuel mileage.  Kind of the same logic as using racing gas in a lawn mower, it'll work, but you're just throwing dollars out of the tailpipe.
 
I do believe that if we continue to "prefer" spark ignition engines, ethanol production, use, and education will have to be beefed up tremendously.  North America certainly has the capability to produce it in huge quantities, but it hasn't met the price point requirement, until now.

[jawilson]

When gas prices change, unless the station got a same-day delivery, it is the same gas sitting in the ground as it was before prices change. It seems like buying day-old bread at new bread prices....it just doesn't make any sense to me.......JMHO   :eyecrazy:

It's the way the supply system works. If they were to charge you for the "high" priced gas when it actually hit the pumps it could be weeks, or months, until they were able to jack up the price. Even though they have absolutely no rational to charge what they do now, at least you know why they are. If they were to do it months from now they wouldn't be able to justify it at all (not that they can now, but you get the idea).

[jawilson]

Are you livid enough to go fight in our nation's wars borne of a foreign policy driven largely by oil concerns?  Because that's exactly what many of us are doing - because you and many others demand cheap gas. You may think I'm absurd for taking gratification in seeing rising gas prices, but I say you are absurd for being satisfied with the status quo which results in me dodging bullets on battlefields year after year so you can have your cheap gas.

How on earth do you equate what's happening over seas to cheap gas for Americans? That whole thing was started in response to a terrorist action, not because we want cheap gas. When have the American people EVER gotten cut rate oil from Iraq or Afghanistan in exchange for our militaries assistance? You're definitely confusing two entirely different issues.

And don't blame me for anyone being over there. I sure as h#ll didn't vote for the oil sheik we have in office now, so it has absolutely nothing to do with me.


I don't want high prices so executives can have compensation.  I want high prices so we can eventually put them out of business for good. We will not see the motivation among our people/gov't/industries to solve this problem until we all feel significant pain.  So like I said before, pay up and feel some pain.  I certainly have been, and in your name.

You've been doing nothing in my name. Personally, I don't feel we should be in either of those places right now.

And is destabilizing the entire US economy actually worth that to you? Let's hope not. Since the "recovery" started 2 years ago the economy has been extremely volatile. After 3 years of recession the LAST thing this country needs is for oil to bring it back down. And it's certainly a possibility, because for sure there is no part of anyone's life that doesn't get impacted by this in some significant manner.


If you're not comfortable with the execs compensation, then sell your stock in their companies and start riding your bicycle.  I put 3000 miles on my bike last year (a rare year in which I was not deployed for the duration).

Sell my stock, now there's a statement. I doubt my 168 shares would really register with them. I might as well go shout in the forest. I'd get the same number of people to hear me.

And 3000 miles is about 6 weeks of commuting for me, so that's not a "statement" move either.


It is not a basic "right" as a human being or as an American to have cheap gas.  We will pay market rates for the luxury of fuel to burn. If the rates are prohibitive to a person, then the person needs to change lifestyle, as difficult as it may be.  It is not a basic right to be able to live 60 miles from your workplace and commute in a low-MPG vehicle.  Change jobs or move.  It isn't easy and it isn't convenient but so what.

I never claimed it was a basic right. I understand it's a privilege (sort of), but it's a privilege the public is currently being help hostage by. These oil companies are NOT suffering along with us, they're the ones making us suffer! And for there own narrow (personal?) interests, certainly not the stock holders.


If you think you are powerless to do anything about it, it is only because you are unwilling to make the uncomfortable changes needed. Well, forgive me if that angers me.  I've been plenty uncomfortable in recent years.

But again, you're using one issue to argue another. What war, or "police action", has ever been about securing oil for this country? WWI or II? Korea? Vietnam? Gulf War I? None of them.

Please don't use your patriotism as a forum to make this appear as though it's something else. You aren't over there protecting the flow of oil, that's for darn sure.


Our economy needs a massive overhaul to get off the dependancy. Vehicle consumption is only a tiny part of the issue.  It can't happen all at once.  But it won't even start to happen until we pay high prices for it, making the change a necessity.

With the propensity of gas/electric hybrids on the road today, as well as vehicles that deactivate engine cylinders while cruising to reduce gas consumption, the shift has already begun to occur. If you realize that it can't happen all at once, like you say you do, then you already notice the shift occurring, and therefor have no reason to hope the economy gets crippled because of outlandish gas prices. That sounds like a bit of a contradiction if you ask me.


As long as we are paying dirt cheap prices for fuel then people will remain ridiculously complacent.

See previous answer.


Just my humble opinions on things.  I've been wrong plenty of times before.  I'm not trying to be confrontational.  This is just a pet peeve of mine - and I think I've paid my dues to have a strong opinion about it.

No one has to "pay dues" in order to have an opinion. That's what our fore-fathers fought and died for, and what still occurs to this very day (although some of the conflicts today seem more about political or personal agendas then actual issues, but I digress). No one's voice is louder then another persons is. That's one of the most significant tenants this country was founded on!

Sorry, but to me it does seem as though you're being confrontational. I suspect that to you I come across in the same manner. Touche. The suffering this country did for those 3 miserable years of recession was mind boggling. To hear someone sounding as though they're wishing it to occur again, which this fuel crisis could potentially do, boils my blood. I'm just as much a patriot as the next guy, but the conflicts overseas have nothing whatsoever to with oil.

If you truly are over there then I say keep your head down and return home safe. But regardless, don't expect to find much sympathy with your viewpoints because I suspect you're in a very small minority with how you feel about certain things. Do we need to change? I certainly believe we do. Does the nation need to be devastated in order for that to happen? Absolutely not! The shift is already occurring, the momentum is building. Having gas prices that are crippling is only beneficial to a select few, and I somehow doubt it's any of us.

Alright, I'm done. I'll step down off my soap box now and leave this issue alone...

[raptor]

How on earth do you equate what's happening over seas to cheap gas for Americans? That whole thing was started in response to a terrorist action, not because we want cheap gas. When have the American people EVER gotten cut rate oil from Iraq or Afghanistan in exchange for our militaries assistance? You're definitely confusing two entirely different issues.

You honestly think our foreign policy is not hugely affected by oil concerns?  I don't think we are in Iraq or Afghanistan solely for oil, but it is certainly a huge part of virtually every foreign policy decision - which includes wars.  I have a pretty mature outlook on the Iraq situation.  It's very complex, as we all know.  It's not all about oil.  It's about many things.  It's also not all about terrorism or a response to 9/11.  If I really thought everything I did was about oil then I wouldn't still be in uniform.  BUT, there is no denying its definitive role in our foreign policy decisions.

You've been doing nothing in my name.

You are American no?  Ask the good (and sometimes bad) people I come across in foreign lands if they think I represent you.  Don't worry, I do my best to leave good impressions (honestly, it's important).

iAnd is destabilizing the entire US economy actually worth that to you? Let's hope not.

$3 dollar gas is not going to wreck the economy.  It will cause people pain enough to rethink some things.  Of course I wouldn't want the economy to be wrecked.

Sell my stock, now there's a statement. I doubt my 168 shares would really register with them. I might as well go shout in the forest. I'd get the same number of people to hear me.

Well, there are strengths in numbers of course.  And there is something to be said for sticking to principles.

And 3000 miles is about 6 weeks of commuting for me, so that's not a "statement" move either.

Ok.  Well, there are other options as well I guess.  Carpool.  Take public transpo.  Get a job closer to your home.  Get a home closer to your job.  Or keep driving and pay for the luxury.

I never claimed it was a basic right. I understand it's a privilege (sort of), but it's a privilege the public is currently being help hostage by. These oil companies are NOT suffering along with us, they're the ones making us suffer! And for there own narrow (personal?) interests, certainly not the stock holders.

Maybe if we all rode our bikes or if we all sold our 168 shares they would notice?  But you're right - they are probably happy with the "long-commute" option.

But again, you're using one issue to argue another. What war, or "police action", has ever been about securing oil for this country? WWI or II? Korea? Vietnam? Gulf War I? None of them.

Our modern foreign policy is not driven by oil concerns?

With the propensity of gas/electric hybrids on the road today, as well as vehicles that deactivate engine cylinders while cruising to reduce gas consumption, the shift has already begun to occur.

I agree.  Don't you think higher gas prices have something to do with the shift you refer to?  Would your neighbors who are driving a Prius be driving that Prius if gas was still $1 like it was in 98/99?  Would Toyota make the Prius if your neighbors didn't want to buy one?

If you realize that it can't happen all at once, like you say you do, then you already notice the shift occurring, and therefor have no reason to hope the economy gets crippled because of outlandish gas prices.

Not sure $3 is outlandish.  I've paid more than $5 before when I lived in Europe.  I don't want the economy to cripple.

No one has to "pay dues" in order to have an opinion. That's what our fore-fathers fought and died for, and what still occurs to this very day (although some of the conflicts today seem more about political or personal agendas then actual issues, but I digress). No one's voice is louder then another persons is. That's one of the most significant tenants this country was founded on!

Completely agree.   Well said.  I wouldn't want to suggest otherwise (and apologize if I did).  I'm just an average dude like anyone else.  Well, except I do have a PU - that's pretty cool.

Sorry, but to me it does seem as though you're being confrontational. I suspect that to you I come across in the same manner. Touche. The suffering this country did for those 3 miserable years of recession was mind boggling. To hear someone sounding as though they're wishing it to occur again, which this fuel crisis could potentially do, boils my blood. I'm just as much a patriot as the next guy, but the conflicts overseas have nothing whatsoever to with oil.

With few exceptions, almost everything we (and all other large volume oil consuming nations) do overseas is in some way affected by oil.  Our President even implicitly said this in the latest State of the Union.  Obvious example:  Russia and China are not taking a moderate approach towards Iran right now because they think it would be cool for Iran to have nuclear weapons.  They simply need Iran's oil.  There are reasons we want to forcefully promote peace and stability in the Middle East.  And there are reasons we are willing to look the other way about the chaos and instability in other areas (Chad, Sudan, etc.).  Oil is not the only of those reasons, but it's certainly a big one.


If you truly are over there then I say keep your head down and return home safe. But regardless, don't expect to find much sympathy with your viewpoints because I suspect you're in a very small minority with how you feel about certain things. Do we need to change? I certainly believe we do. Does the nation need to be devastated in order for that to happen? Absolutely not! The shift is already occurring, the momentum is building. Having gas prices that are crippling is only beneficial to a select few, and I somehow doubt it's any of us.

I'm not currently over anywhere.  But I have been plenty and I will be again.  I don't want any sympathy.  I'm in this profession voluntarily.  I'm not under any stop-loss at the moment, so I make my own bed and lay in it.  No probs.  I'm absolutely no better than anyone else or no more a patriot than people in thousands of professions.  There are many noble paths thru a life, I just hope to be on one of them.  

I am not advocating that our nation needs to be devastated.  I simply think we need to feel some pain in our wallet over this issue because that is the only motivator that I think will work.  Today's prices are getting uncomfortable, but I think that's what we need.  I think you and I are actually disagreeing on very little.

The shift is occuring because of rising prices (in my opinion), and hybrids are not the answer anyway.  They still consume.  They change very little in the long run.  But they are of course a step in the right direction.

Alright, I'm done. I'll step down off my soap box now and leave this issue alone...
let's go camping!

[GrizzlyTaco]

I filled my tank today and it cost me $53.00, Yikes..........Regular Unleaded is $2.89 and the Mid Grade is $2.99 and Premieum is $3.09 here in Vegas. This is really :swear: ..............Ed C.

[TheViking]

I filled my tank today and it cost me $53.00, Yikes..........Regular Unleaded is $2.89 and the Mid Grade is $2.99 and Premieum is $3.09 here in Vegas. This is really :swear: ..............Ed C.

 
 We just paid $3.05 for the regular grade tonight.  Premium was $3.25  !!!:yikes:

[cobalt&3]

FYI

[wynot]

FYI