Does anyone not use any of their propane stuff in their pop-up?

[JimQPublic]

The only propane items I will use inside the trailer are the built-in cooktop, fridge, furnace, and water heater.  Outside the trailer I use a propane stove, grill, and lantern by connecting a hose to the trailer's propane tanks.

[AustinBoston]

When you say "(the heavier the better)", you are very right.

If you are going to use an extension cord to run anything with a heating element, it's a good idea to use a 10 gage extension cord for a 25'-50' run. It's also not a good idea to plug anything else in the same line as a 1500w heater (or other device).

While I am a subscriber to "the heavier is better," I'd love to hear your reasoning that 10 gauge is necessary for a 1500W heater.

NEC only requires 14 gauge in the walls of your house for 1800W (15 amp) circuits.  Those wires are assumed to be in insulated walls, where heat will far more easily build up than an extension cord out in the open.

While I never do home wiring with less than 12 gauge (I'm in Minnesota, where they still let us do that kind of stuff), I would also put a 20 amp breaker (2400 watts) on that 12 gauge circuit.  If I installed a 10 gauge circuit, I would expect to be putting in a 30 amp breaker (3600 watts), more than twice the capacity of any consumer portable electric heater, and since most are now limited to 1200 watts, it's three times the capacity of those heaters.

If we were talking 12V, I would agree with you because the percentage voltage drop for 12V devices is much greater (a 10 amp load at 12V will have the same voltage drop as a 10 amp load at 120V, but the percentage drop is 10 times greater at 12 V).  With 12V appliances, voltage drop is what is important.  But with 120V appliances, heating factor is what is important (for very long runs, more than 150 feet, voltage drop can become important, but that is several times the 25-50 foot length you mentioned).  With a 1500 watt heater, you will not feel a temperature rise on a 14 gauge extension cord unless the cord is defective (or you are checking right near the plug; but you have not offered a better plug/outlet, so the 10 gauge cord at the plug would have the same heating factor as the 14 gauge).

----

For extension cords of 25-50 feet, one gauge larger than the appliance's own cord already has a large safety margin built in.  It may be in fine print, but that appliance cord has a size marked on it; use an extension one size larger.  

Note that the number is smaller for larger gauges, and normally only includes even numbers, so 14 gauge is one size larger than 16, 12 is one size larger than 14.  If you have any doubts, check along the length of the cord after the device has been running for 15 minutes or so.  Warm to the touch cords are not good; use a lower power setting or a larger cord.

Austin

[junklady]

What we use depends on if the kids are with us or not. I use the propane cooktop outside if the kids are with us. If we happen to be lucky enough to have a weekend sitter we cook over the fire. Our pup is basic though, no fridge or furnace, so I can't advise there. However, my biggest fear is having a campfire going all day with the kids around and one of them getting complacent around it and falling in.

[wavery]

While I am a subscriber to "the heavier is better," I'd love to hear your reasoning that 10 gauge is necessary for a 1500W heater.

The length of the cord is the determining factor in what gage is appropriate. The longer the cord, the more resistance, the more resistance, the more heat that is generated where the plug goes into the outlet. A 25' cord can sometimes fall short in a camp space. I carry a 50'. I would never recommend putting 2 extension cords (of any size) together when running a 1500w heater over-night.

If you read my post, I stated, "12 gage can be found in most hardware stores and may be adequate. 10 gage cords are a little harder to find but give you a margin of safety."

If you plug a 1500w heater in a 50' long 12g extension cord and let it run all night, you may well find the plug melted to the socket in the morning. I have even had that happen with the 10g - 30a shore power cords that are commonly used on boats.

As the cord ages, it also builds up resistance because extension cords are made of stranded wire that breaks down with wear&tear and corrosion. Houses are wired with solid core wire that is permanently mounted and suffers almost zero wear & tear or corrosion. Solid core wire does not build up as much resistance as stranded wire either. Contrary to popular belief, electricity does not flow "through" a wire. The electrons flow over the surface of the wire. The smooth surface of solid core wire offers much less resistance than the rough surface of stranded wire. That is why you can wire your house with a smaller gage wire than you could if you were to use stranded wire. The advantage of stranded wire is that it is flexible and will take more punishment. However, over time, that bending will still degrade the wire.

Whenever I buy extension cords, I always get 10g (they can be found at Home Depot). They don't cost that much more and I've never had one over-heat in my camper.

How many times have you been to a campground and found that the electrical outlet has been melted? I've seen plenty. Guess how that happens...... :p

[AustinBoston]

A lot of problems with this.  Enough to tell me there are some things you clearly do not understand.

The length of the cord is the determining factor in what gage is appropriate.

Partly true.  The length of the cord and the current load are the determining factors.

The longer the cord, the more resistance, the more resistance, the more heat that is generated where the plug goes into the outlet.

The first part is OK, but the second part is absolutely not true.  The contact resitance at the outlet is the contact resistance at the outlet.  The gauge of the cord is totally irrelevant to that resistance and to the heat generated at the outlet.  A longer wire does have more resistance (assuming the same gauge), but the resistance is distributed along the entire length of the wire.  Any given foot will heat the same wether the total length of the wire is 5 feet or 500 feet.  

In fact, with a constant resistive load, there will actually be less heating at the outlet with a longer cord because the increased resistance of the wire will lead to less total current flowing through the plug/outlet contact.  Active and reactive loads such as motors or power converters may not behave the same because they may draw more current as the voltage drops, but for a resistance heater, the current would drop with a longer wire, all else being equal.

A 25' cord can sometimes fall short in a camp space. I carry a 50'. I would never recommend putting 2 extension cords (of any size) together when running a 1500w heater over-night.

I agree with this entirely.

If you read my post, I stated, "12 gage can be found in most hardware stores and may be adequate. 10 gauge cords are a little harder to find but give you a margin of safety."

For a 1500 watt heater, 14 gauge is adequate, and 12 gives a significant margin of safety.  Ten gauge, while doing no harm, is overkill.

If you plug a 1500w heater in a 50' long 12g extension cord and let it run all night, you may well find the plug melted to the socket in the morning.

Ah, but, the problem is the plug, not the cord.  the plug on a 10 gauge extension cord is exactly the same as on a 14 gauge cord.  If the 14 was going to melt, so would the 10.  The problem here isn't the cord - it's the plug and the outlet.

I have even had that happen with the 10g - 30a shore power cords that are commonly used on boats.

There's the real problem, and it's one of perception.  Boats = water (or humidity due to water proximity, and often salt, which is far worse than water/humidity) = corrosion = higher resistance = heat = melted plug.  I'll bet you replaced the cord with a new, heavier cord, and it did not happen again.  But when you replaced the cord, your replaced the plug with a new, uncorroded plug, too.  Ever had the end that was protected from the weather overheat?  The one with the 16 gauge appliance cord?   How could the 16 gauge cord be enough when the 10 gauge one wasn't?  I asure you they are both stranded.  Maybe it was the plug, not the cord.

As the cord ages, it also builds up resistance because extension cords are made of stranded wire that breaks down with wear & tear and corrosion.

While I do believe this is possible, I have seen 35 year old cords that are still serviceable and safe.  Both the plug and the outlet had been replaced, but the cord itself was fine.  Also, if the wire is corroded, it is defective.  Cords rated for outdoor use are supposed to be hermetically sealed.

Houses are wired with solid core wire that is permanently mounted and suffers almost zero wear & tear or corrosion.

I can assure you, house wiring can and does corrode.  the connection points are exposed to more moisture and more oxygen (by a factor of at least 1000) than outdoor rated extension cords, because the extension cord is hermetically sealed.

Solid core wire does not build up as much resistance as stranded wire either.

Total rubbish.  The gauge for stranded wire is not based on it's physical diameter, it's based on it's metallic cross-sectional area (sometimes specified in circular mils).  It has exactly the same resistance per foot as solid wire.  Where did you get this idea?

Contrary to popular belief, electricity does not flow "through" a wire. The electrons flow over the surface of the wire. The smooth surface of solid core wire offers much less resistance than the rough surface of stranded wire.

Someone has been mixing radio with house current.  Surface effect does not even enter the measurable realm until frequency approaches 50,000Hz, nearly a thousand times the 60Hz frequency of house current.  It does not become significant until you exceed about 150,000 hz.  So if you are using your extension cords as broadcast antennas, maybe...

That is why you can wire your house with a smaller gage wire than you could if you were to use stranded wire.

Wrong again.  If I were to wire a 16 gauge solid wire circuit in my house (in most cases it would be illegal, but for some permanently installed appliances it could be allowed), it would have to be breakered at 10 amps, which is 1200 watts.  As I write this, I have a two year old Titan brand heater (sold by Walmart for many years - there are millions of them out there) that is rated at 1500 watts (12.5 amps).  It has a 16 gauge stranded wire cord and a UL seal.  But your contention is it's the other way around, that the solid wire can take more current than the stranded!  The rules (developed over a century of fire experience as well as some serious engineering) say the opposite.

The advantage of stranded wire is that it is flexible and will take more punishment. However, over time, that bending will still degrade the wire.

Yes, it will - but it takes a long time.  I have a 14 gauge extension cord that I used when I was 10 years old to trim the hedge.  That's over thirty-five years of service.  Every time it was used, it was coild and uncoiled, draged, stepped on, etc.  I have had to replace both ends because the plugs have coroded, but that is not the contention here.  Also, the cord is shorter than it once was - when I was about 14 I hit it with the trimmer and lopped off about 25 feet, so it's only 75 feet now.  Boy, how I hated trimming the hedge.  When we bought a house with a hedge, the first thing I did was rip up that hedge...um, sorry, that's a different story.

Whenever I buy extension cords, I always get 10g (they can be found at Home Depot). They don't cost that much more and I've never had one over-heat in my camper.

And I've used two 1500 watt heaters (though one was only at the 600 watt setting, so 2100 watts total) through a 14 gauge extension cord, all night long, with no heating.  I don't reccomend it, BTW - the cord was overloaded - but it does demonstrate that 10 gauge is serious overkill, and that the real source of your problem is/has been defective or  corroded plugs/outlets, not insufficient wire gauges.

How many times have you been to a campground and found that the electrical outlet has been melted? I've seen plenty. Guess how that happens...... :p

I know exactly how it happens - a corroded plug not properly seated.  It gets hot and eventually smokes the insulation.  It has nothing to do with the gauge of the wire and everything to do with the condition of the plug/outlet.

I will agree theat a heavier cord is better, but every problem you describe actually experincing is with the plug/outlet, not the cord!  The plug and outlet are exactly the same for 14 gauge, 12 gauge, and 10 gauge extension cords (unless you get one rated for 20 amps, in which case you won't even be able to plug it in at many campgrounds).

The best advice is to use the heaviest extension cord you can, at least one gauge heavier than the appliance, make sure the plugs are not corroded, and insert and remove the plug several times (to help remove surface corrosion), then make sure it is secuely seated in the outlet.  But don't fret just because you don't have a 10 gauge cord.  It's contribution to the whole equation is quite small.

If we really need 10 gauge extension cords for 1500 watt heaters, then we urgently need to be replacing the 16 gauge appliance cords they come with.

Austin

[tlhdoc]

Wow, have I learned a lot.

[Old Goat]

I carry a 40' #12 extension cord in the popup and I have ran a 1400 watt ceramic heater all night with it plugged into the 30A trailer cord many times and it and the plugs do not even get warm. Austin is right about old and faulty plugs being the biggest problem with extension cords.  When my extension cords are coiled up I always keep the plugs plugged together to keep them clean and protected against damage. I give the plugs a shot of WD-40 now and then and then blow off the excess with an air hose.
Extension cords seem to be on the low end of alot of campers maintenance and care lists. Over the years I have helped many campers  solve their no electric problems and nine times out of ten it is the plugs on the extension cords that are the problem. They are usually broken or burned from  loose connections. I always carry an extra set of 20A plups in the popup along with a couple of 20A duplex receptacles. Never know when I might need them.....

[flyfisherman]

To date, I've never camped anywhere there has been electrical hooks, where the camper's H.D. 30'/30amp  power cord could'nt reach the C/G electrical outlet. I'm like some others on the board that when paying for an electrical hook-up, I'll use whatever I can of it, saving the "other" fuels that I have to pay for on a regular basis. That goes, too, for outdoor lighting. Instead of using the Coleman lantern, I have a 25'/10amp extension cord (bought at Wally-Mart), that has a plastic case and you simply roll the cord up in the case, which makes it easy to store. Where I connect this extension cord is close to the camper patio light, in one of the exterior 110 camper outlets. Of course, this is for lighting, maybe a 60 or 75 watt bulb.  I see my Pelonis 1500watt ceramic heater requires 12.5amps and the "fine print" on the unit's box says if one has to use an extension cord, "it shall be a No.14 AWG minimun size and not rated less than 1875W".



Fly

[zamboni]

But there's a 120 outlet inside the cabin, in the vicinity of where the A/C would be if there were to be one, and that outlet is labeled for the A/C to be plugged into it. This is where I plug in the Pelonis ceramic heater and so far, to date, no tripped or blown fuses.  Maybe that's just luck ...?

Probably not, if it is anything like my former Coleman Niagara...

Your PUP has a 30-A plug / service.

Your main cabin uses a shared 15-A circuit.  The A/C plug (not used) is wired as a dedicated 20-A circuit.  Thus, as long as your shore power is over 20-A, you will not blow that circuit unless BOTH are close to maxed out.

Usually, your AC will not pull more than about 13-15A (startup may be more).  So, unless you are also maxing out your main cabin's 15A circuit, you are fine.

[wavery]

Here's a handy extension cord sizing guide:

http://www.yourepair.com/2006/11/19/extension-cords.html

A 1500W heater is 13.6 Amps at 110v.

Here is the rating of a 50' 12/3 at Home Depot. (15A MAX). Quite adequate but for about $5 more, you can get a 10/3 (not available online).
http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?CNTTYPE=PROD_META&CNTKEY=misc%2fsearchResults.jsp&BV_SessionID=@@@@0178444112.1166129397@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccdfaddjjefihemcgelceffdfgidgng.0&MID=9876
Put 100046665 in the "Search" box.

The big problem is, a lot of CG have insufficent service for extreme load times, like when it is very hot and a lot of people are running air conditioners or cold when a lot of campers are using heaters.

It is very common for the voltage at your campsite to drop to 100-105V or lower when the demand is heavy. At 100V your 1500W heater will take 15A to run and slightly more to start.

I hope this helps.

[AustinBoston]

Here's a handy extension cord sizing guide:

http://www.yourepair.com/2006/11/19/extension-cords.html

A 1500W heater is 13.6 Amps at 110v.

The big problem is, a lot of CG have insufficent service for extreme load times, like when it is very hot and a lot of people are running air conditioners or cold when a lot of campers are using heaters.

It is very common for the voltage at your campsite to drop to 100-105V or lower when the demand is heavy. At 100V your 1500W heater will take 15A to run and slightly more to start.

I hope this helps.

If it is a resistance heater, that is not true.  As the voltage drops, the current will also drop, almost in proportion to the voltage drop.  So a resisitance heater such as a ceramic or cube heater that has a 1500 watt output at 120 volt input will have about a 1050 watt output at 100 volts and a current draw of 10 amps.  This is not exact, because the resistance is not perfectly flat across temperature, but it will be within 20 watts.  The amount of power used for the fan is relatively insignificant.

For air conditioners and heat pumps, you are correct - a voltage drop leads to an increase in current draw and an increase in internal heat as well.  That's why a voltage drop will burn out a cheap air conditioner - the motor windings are not designed for the additional current and will overheat.

As far as it being "very common," most campgrounds that have problems soon find themselves faced with very angry campers when the A/C kicks out at 100 degrees because of electrical problems.  I've only seen voltages below 110V once, but it does happen.

I would not rely on the web site you linked to, either.  This statement:
"If you are using a 15amp Circular saw and you are 200 feet away from your power source you better get the thicker 10amp cord even though it costs a bit more. For one thing on a cheap 14g or 12g wire your saw won

[Brantime]

911...911...can't we all just get along, lol?

I will admit that I just learend alot from this post...however, you guys have scared me with all the tit-for-tat that is going along!

Austin and Wavery...I have been helped alot in he past by your post...both to me directly and also just reading others that you guys have posted. Thanks for the information!

Let's just wave the white flag of truce and go camping somewhere!

Take care and remember to duck when the words are being slung around, lol!

[AustinBoston]

911...911...can't we all just get along, lol?

I will admit that I just learend alot from this post...however, you guys have scared me with all the tit-for-tat that is going along!

Austin and Wavery...I have been helped alot in he past by your post...both to me directly and also just reading others that you guys have posted. Thanks for the information!

Let's just wave the white flag of truce and go camping somewhere!

Take care and remember to duck when the words are being slung around, lol!

Sorry, maybe I am getting out of hand...it's happened before.

Austin

[flyfisherman]

911...911...can't we all just get along, lol?

I will admit that I just learend alot from this post...however, you guys have scared me with all the tit-for-tat that is going along!

Austin and Wavery...I have been helped alot in he past by your post...both to me directly and also just reading others that you guys have posted. Thanks for the information!

Let's just wave the white flag of truce and go camping somewhere!

Take care and remember to duck when the words are being slung around, lol!

I, for one, was getting a great deal of electrical info out of these exchanges. And I don't see where anyone has been disrespectful. AND ... since they these exchanges no way involved you ... may I suggest you not bother reading them if they are any way upsetting to you.  



Fly

[ScoobyDoo]

I'm sure glad my cord and heater didn't read all this before the first time we took our camper out. While we were loading I told DW to grab a cord. When we were sitting up I found she had picked up a 35ft, 16g. cord. It carried the 1500W heater all nite. The ends didn't burn, the cord didn't melt. I know the cord was overloaded but it was laying on gravel, and less than 20* F. (I have a 45ft, 12G cord in the trailer now)
  BTW, my skillsaw doesn't like 14G cords, I only buy 12G. The little 16G was made up just to power a floracent lite in a shop I had for awhile.