small tow vehicle?

[rtt108]

I know this has been rehashed a number of times here, but I'd like to get some opinions.

BTW, I'm a newbie to the board, but I've been pop-up camping for many years, and trailering various things for decades.

I have a 93 Coleman pop-up, I think it's a 6ft box.  995lbs is the dry weight, so it's fairly light.  We camp, only 4 or 5 times a year, so I really only do very light duty towing.

In the past I towed it with a 94 Taurus wagon, 1500lb towing capacity.  This car did okay.  You could feel the weight, and stopping distances were a bit long.  With a family of 4 (2 pre-teen kids) and about 200-400 lbs of gear I was probably at about the limit of what this car could handle.  We did that for several years without misshap.  It worked well enough.

I then we switched to an 02 VW Eurovan, 4500lb capacity.  Great tow vehicle!  Horrendeously unreliable and expensive piece of garbage!  It's gone.

So I'm in-between tow vehicles!

I threw a hitch on my 04 Chrysler Sebring Convertible, 1000lb towing capacity, but it's not cutting it.  I'm sure I'm overloading it, and the brakes are weak to begin with.  We towed the camper twice like this last summer, but It's not safe.

So, I'm looking at 2 cars to replace the Sebring, and I'm curious if anyone has direct experience with these cars, or something very similar:

(BTW, I'm really only looking at Toyota's and Honda's.  I know they don't make the best tow vehicles, but I have my reasons)

My preference would be a Toyota Matrix, manual transmission.  I know this is a small car with a 4 cyl engine, but the tow rating IS 1500lbs.  If it tows at least as well as the Taurus I may go for this.  It fits the majority of what I want out of a car (fits my lifestyle the best), but is probably marginal on towing.  If I get this we may use 2 cars to camp.  Put the gear and kids in one car, and lug the camper empty with the Matrix.

Probably a better option for towing is a Toyota RAV4.  I would be looking at a used, 04 or 05 with a manual tranny and 2.4L 4 cyl.  The tow rating is still only 1500lbs, like the Matrix, but it has better cargo capacity, GVWR, and bigger brakes.  The disadvantage here is I tow so infrequently that I have to live with lower gas mileage all year long, just to go camping a couple times a year.

So ... comments?  Suggestions?

Big trucks, pickups, and large SUV's are just out of the question.

[edwardr132]

You probably should stick with a 6 cylinder vehicle in terms of towing.  You could try a Honda Accord V6.  That should do the job.   If you are concerned with braking, you probably should invest in brakes for the popup and a brake controller.

[rtt108]

You probably should stick with a 6 cylinder vehicle in terms of towing.  You could try a Honda Accord V6.  That should do the job.   If you are concerned with braking, you probably should invest in brakes for the popup and a brake controller.

Thanks for the suggestion, but no for the V6.  Like I said I tow very infrequently and I don't want to pay the gas mileage penalty all year long.  

Power is really not the issue for towing.  Especially with a trailer as light as this.  It may require slowing down, and gearing down on longer hills, but I'm okay with that.  I should mention I live near Boston and camp in NH ... so I don't encounter very many hills of significance.

It's really the braking capacity, and to some extent the internal cargo capacity of the car.  Trailer brakes are a good suggestion.  I'll have to look into that if I go with a smaller car.

Sedans are also really out of the question.  I do need the cargo space of a wagon type body, even when not towing.  If Honda still imported the Accord Wagon though ...

Also, you couldn't give me Honda with an automatic transmission.  I was thinking about this on the way to work this morning.  I can count 5 people I know who have Accords with automatic transmissions which have failed, some multiple times.  I'm a big Honda fan, but I wouldn't touch thier automatic trannies.

So, Manual transmission is an absolute requirement, no matter what car I get.

I should also mention that minivan's are out too.  Just too big for daily use.

I'm really focusing on the smallest vehicle I can find that's capable of doing the Job.  So that's why I'm looking for folks with some direct experience on these 2 vehicles.  

I hope I don't sound too closed minded about this, but I'm 90% decided on one of these 2 vehicles, and I'm looking for some input to make sure I have'nt overlooked something.

[wavery]

The standard trans is probably a good choice.

There are things that you can do to make your brakes safer. Look into to some HD metallic brake pads that are made for towing. Also slotted and chamfered disc brake rotors will eliminate heat faster and decrease the event of brake fading. Brake fade is the #1 danger in towing. It must be considered when towing with a passenger car.

[rtt108]

The standard trans is probably a good choice.

There are things that you can do to make your brakes safer. Look into to some HD metallic brake pads that are made for towing. Also slotted and chamfered disc brake rotors will eliminate heat faster and decrease the event of brake fading. Brake fade is the #1 danger in towing. It must be considered when towing with a passenger car.

hmmm ... this kind of differs from what I'd read on various internet sites about brakes??  From what I've read slotted rotors only channel off water better, but do nothing for heat dissipation?  Also, metalic pads tend to hold heat and glaze.  (perhaps I was reading some marketing lies, and not real facts )

I upgraded the brakes on my Chrysler to race grade ceramic pads.  The semi metalics I was using did tend to glaze.  The ceramics perform much better.  I did not put on slotted rotors, but have considered it.

Now, what's a chamfered rotor??  That's a new term on me.

Since I really could use the wagon type vehicle anyway, and this Chrysler also an unreliable car, Im not going to upgrade the brakes on this vehicle ... but It's a possibility for the new one.  Although I would hope not to have to.

Towing approximatly 1000lbs really isn't all that much weight.  Most vehicles should be able to do this without too much trouble ... I hope. ;-)

[rtt108]

I did a quick search on wikipedia for chamfered.  I see this term associated with brake pads to reduce squealing ... but not rotors.

BTW wavery I looked at your webshots pages.  Nice camper.  I'd say mine is 1/2 that size.  Your brave to tow that with an LH!  ;-)

[flyfisherman]

A member of our fishing group pulls a small 8' box Jayco with a base weight of maybe 1100 lbs (plus he thinks maybe 300 lbs additional cargo),  with a  4 banger/5 manual tranny,  Subaru Forester. I think he told me the Forester has a  tow rating of 2000 lbs here in the USA (which he says is controversial as it's rated higher in places outside the USA).  Anyway, what is important, is that he pulls the little Jayco up some mountain passes to always show-up where we are at with our larger tow rated engines!  I've rode in his Subaru, without it being hitched to the popup, to travel to some fishing spots or ride into town.  Think he said it has all wheel drive ... but I'm impressed (what I call the little station wagon) with the general  performance.  Good gas mileage, walks right up some steep inclines and not all that uncomfortable riding!



Fly

[rtt108]

Yes, I looked at a Forester.  Definatly an option.  They're pretty beefy little cars.  

The RAV is slighly larger inside, and has better predicted reliabilty, but other than that they should be comparable.  I guess I should give that one a second look.

[wynot]

A member of our fishing group pulls a small 8' box Jayco with a base weight of maybe 1100 lbs (plus he thinks maybe 300 lbs additional cargo), with a 4 banger/5 manual tranny, Subaru Forester. I think he told me the Forester has a tow rating of 2000 lbs here in the USA (which he says is controversial as it's rated higher in places outside the USA). Anyway, what is important, is that he pulls the little Jayco up some mountain passes to always show-up where we are at with our larger tow rated engines! I've rode in his Subaru, without it being hitched to the popup, to travel to some fishing spots or ride into town. Think he said it has all wheel drive ... but I'm impressed (what I call the little station wagon) with the general performance. Good gas mileage, walks right up some steep inclines and not all that uncomfortable riding!
 
 
Fly

Fly beat me to mentioning the Subarus.  I know that you haven't listed them, on the other hand, you said you were considering Hondas and Toyotas, yet nothing was mentioned about the Honda model you were considering.
 
They (Subaru) supposedly have the towing capacity, but from my families expensive experiences with several of them, I'm not sure that I would want to buy one.  No one in the family has them anymore.

[wavery]

hmmm ... this kind of differs from what I'd read on various internet sites about brakes??  From what I've read slotted rotors only channel off water better, but do nothing for heat dissipation?  Also, metalic pads tend to hold heat and glaze.  (perhaps I was reading some marketing lies, and not real facts )

I upgraded the brakes on my Chrysler to race grade ceramic pads.  The semi metalics I was using did tend to glaze.  The ceramics perform much better.  I did not put on slotted rotors, but have considered it.

Now, what's a chamfered rotor??  That's a new term on me.

Since I really could use the wagon type vehicle anyway, and this Chrysler also an unreliable car, Im not going to upgrade the brakes on this vehicle ... but It's a possibility for the new one.  Although I would hope not to have to.

Towing approximatly 1000lbs really isn't all that much weight.  Most vehicles should be able to do this without too much trouble ... I hope. ;-)

The "Chamfered rotors" have holes drilled in them to reduce heat. They are very popular in racing. Have a look here:
http://www.brakeco.com/Brake%20rotors,%20brake%20pads.htm

I originally installed ceramic brake pads but I was told that they may not take the weight of towing. If you look at websites, all of the ones that I have found state, "Not for towing". That concerned me so I pulled the ceramics off and installed a semi-metallic pad that IS recommended for towing. I have the box in my garage. I'll go down later and check out the brand and type. I did a lot of research at the time but I didn't save it. Please research it carefully and make your own decision.

[rtt108]

Thanks wavery!  I thought they were called cross-drilled rotors, which is usually done for weight.  But I also thought I had read they reduce braking ability and make the rotor more fragile???  Like you , I did this research some time ago, and didn't save any information.  But you're right, I probably didn't research this specifically with towing in mind.  So perhaps the hardware I have currently is not ideal.

wynot, I also have concerns about the reliability of supergoos.  On paper they look like an ideal car.  I know a couple of folks who love them.  I also know 2 people with the Legacy Outbacks who have had catastrophic engine failures!  So I think I'll have to do a lot more research on them.

As for Honda, the CRV and Element are about the only possibilities, but I think I'd go with a RAV4 first.

Of course I'll need to eat a ton of crow at work if I show up with an SUV!

[wavery]

Thanks wavery!  I thought they were called cross-drilled rotors, which is usually done for weight.  But I also thought I had read they reduce braking ability and make the rotor more fragile???  (

Actually, cross-drilling has little to do with weight reduction. It is mainly for heat dissipation. Heat build-up in road racing vehicles is a serious problem, just like in towing. The ounce of material that is removed by drilling the rotors would mean nothing if it jeopardized the safety of the car and/or driver.

I have also read about the possibility of these rotors cracking and/or warping. However, when I read statements from actual users, I saw none of this mentioned.

The fact is, it makes more sense that the heat dissipation would help to discourage warping. I can just tell you that I have had them on for 20K miles now and I find them quite effective on MY car.

[SpeakEasy]

This won't directly answer your questions, but, wth.

Don't worry about the 4-cyl - 6-cyl issue. I towed my 3,000lb camper all over the country with a 4-cyl Toyota Previa (supercharged) for years. No problems.

I don't know much about the Rav4, but I'm a Toyota man all the way. The Highlander is a towing champ. I know that the way Toyota reports the towing capacity is different than the way other manufacturers do. With Toyota, if they say 1500 lb, it's 1500 lb of trailer. You don't have to subtract the weight carried in the vehicle. So, my guess is that you'd be very happy with the Rav4.

-Speak

[rtt108]

If that's true about Toyota ... I could just get the Matrix 8-)  I'd prefer driving that most of the time anyway.

I'm going to drive a RAV tomorrow, and maybe a Forester just for grins.

Too bad I can't bring the trailer and hook it up!

[SpeakEasy]

A slight correction on what I said earlier (before I get flamed).

You do have to count the trailer's tongue weight against what the vehicle can carry. So, if your vehicle weight capacity is, say, 900 lb and your tongue weight is 200 lb, now you only have 700 lb left for passengers and gear.

-Speak