tranny cooler too small?

[SheBantam]

Hi Anthony,
That is exactly why we did not catch this last year. The check engine light came on in the fall.

I knew the AC was taking a LONG tome to cool down, but when I was moving good, the AC was cranking.  The air around the car was pushing it.

The Ford dealer AND Cottman Transmission both show 2 O2 sensors.  Cottman don;t do that kinda work and Ford wanted to take us to the cleaners.

The man who has the van now says that the fans not working can trigger something that codes for the O2 sensors. In fact his first question to me on the phone today was basically other than the O2 sensors, am I having any problems with drivability. I told him the car had over heated Monday in traffic.  I think that he did not think the O2 sensor were the real problem from the get go.

I have not a clue, I just know that this shop came highly recommended for this kinda work (O2 sensors) from the manager at the largest PepBoys in the area.  He said he has been dealig with them since around 1954... I was born in '55 and they have been in business since 1946, the father retired and the sons now run it.  So if they have been in business that long, and they come highly recommended by a competitor, then they gotta by doing something right...I hope anyway.

[wavery]

Hi Anthony,
That is exactly why we did not catch this last year. The check engine light came on in the fall.

I knew the AC was taking a LONG tome to cool down, but when I was moving good, the AC was cranking.  The air around the car was pushing it.

The Ford dealer AND Cottman Transmission both show 2 O2 sensors.  Cottman don;t do that kinda work and Ford wanted to take us to the cleaners.

The man who has the van now says that the fans not working can trigger something that codes for the O2 sensors. In fact his first question to me on the phone today was basically other than the O2 sensors, am I having any problems with drivability. I told him the car had over heated Monday in traffic.  I think that he did not think the O2 sensor were the real problem from the get go.

I have not a clue, I just know that this shop came highly recommended for this kinda work (O2 sensors) from the manager at the largest PepBoys in the area.  He said he has been dealig with them since around 1954... I was born in '55 and they have been in business since 1946, the father retired and the sons now run it.  So if they have been in business that long, and they come highly recommended by a competitor, then they gotta by doing something right...I hope anyway.

He is correct. If the engine is getting hot at idle, that can cause a rich fuel mixture and an incorrect O2 sensor reading.

He will obviously clear the codes when he gets your fans going. You'll know if the O2 code appears again with a couple hours driving. Even if the "Check engine" comes on again, it's not going to hurt anything over the short haul. However, if the O2 sensor is bad, you'll want to get it fixed in the next 5K miles or so.

[SheBantam]

Thanks Paul for asking this question, though my problem was not the tranny cooler...I think mine is JUST Right.

My problem was the dual fans...they BOTH were broke.  They are fixed now.

DO NOT LET A FORD DEALER (at least NOT the Ford Dealer in NEw Castle near Motor Vehicles)  DO A TRANNY service!!!!  WHy? they suck out the fluids, do not drop the pan but just replace with new fluid with out changing the filter...

[wavery]

Thanks Paul for asking this question, though my problem was not the tranny cooler...I think mine is JUST Right.

My problem was the dual fans...they BOTH were broke.  They are fixed now.

DO NOT LET A FORD DEALER (at least NOT the Ford Dealer in NEw Castle near Motor Vehicles)  DO A TRANNY service!!!!  WHy? they suck out the fluids, do not drop the pan but just replace with new fluid with out changing the filter...

I'm glad that you got the problem fixed . However, if it were me (which it isn't :p ) I'd think about getting rid of that vehicle. If you have overheated that engine on several occasions like that (gage in the red), you could be looking at big problems, relatively soon.

I don't mean to be an alarmist here but overheating your engine can cause many-many problems that may not show up for a few thousand miles. They could range from distorted pistons, cylinder walls, and/or rings to a blown head-gasket, burnt valves to complete engine wipe-out (as well as a myriad of other problems). It could include transmission and/or radiator damage as well. When and if they fail, they could be catastrophic.

At the very least, it will surely lead to a shortened engine (and related parts) life.

[SheBantam]

It actually only overheated on Memorial day and we were almost home, caught in holiday going home traffic,  It only hit the red for an instant and I turned the heater on fullblast and opened the windows to let the heat out and not make the windstar a sauna.

I think that it was getting hotter than normal prior, but most of the trips are short ones and usually we do not sit in long lines of traffic.  Hopefully we caught it in time and no damage was done,  those 2 fans installed was $$$.  I do not see me towing with the van ubless it is an emergency since we got the automatic F150/

[SPXTrader]

DO NOT LET A FORD DEALER (at least NOT the Ford Dealer in NEw Castle near Motor Vehicles)  DO A TRANNY service!!!!  WHy? they suck out the fluids, do not drop the pan but just replace with new fluid with out changing the filter...

First, glad you got your truck sorted out.

Now about this tranny service:

RANT ON:

A few years ago I took my '89 Chevy 4X4 3/4 ton PU into one of those quickie lube places.  Needed the transfer case, reduction unit and gear fluids changed.  Well, they sucked me into a "Full Transmission Service", and I watched with interest how they hooked this machine up to my radiator's tranny lines.  The kid doing it showed me the old dirty fluid coming out, and being replaced with fresh fluid.  OK, truck's ready.  That'll be $$$ (whatever it was I don't recall now), and I asked why so much and the manager said Well, you had the full transmission service.  I told him that I stood right there, and watched, and no one removed the tranny pan and replaced the filter or gasket.  We don't do that was his reply.  I went off!  How the hell do you call it a full service when you don't change the filter?  If I brought this truck in for an oil change, would you leave the old filter on and just replace the oil?  In a short answer, No he said.  You have to replace the filter too or it really doesn't do any good.  OK, then why the hell are you charging me $$ for a full tranny service when you didn't change the filter?  By now, my voice was getting louder and other customers were paying attention.  One was even getting ready to let them do a Full Transmission Service to his car.  He declined, and the manager again said That'll be $$$.  I said when you replace the transmission filter and gasket I will gladly pay you that amount.  If you don't, I'm not paying for a crappy half done service.  More customers listening now.

To make a long story short, I didn't pay for the tranny service, the other guy didn't have his done, some poor old woman refused to let them change her air filter and PVC valve, and another guy just got back in his car and drove off.  Money grubbing SOB's!

RANT OFF...sorry.

[Fred420]

That service is what the dealers all do now.  Quit thinking of cars before the 80's.  The "filter" is now no more than a screen system.  It does not need to be changed when the fluid is changed.  If you drop the pan to replace the filter, you only remove about 20% - 25% of the fluid.  So when you add back the 2 - 3 qts that were lost, all you did was mix clean fluid with the dirty fluid.  That's smart!!  Doing it with the T-Tech machine insurres that ALL of the fluid is exchanged.  It will supply 4 1/2 gallons of fluid, your trans does not hold that much, it just insures a complete exchange of the fluid.  That "filter" is about 3/8 of an inch thick and around 7 x 10 inches in dia.  It is a screen, or a joke of a filter.  If the "filter" needs to be changed, than that tranny is on its way out.  Change the fluid AS RECOMMENDED, 30 - 45,000 miles, and you should never have to drop the pan.  If the fluid is not changed, and it starts to crystalize and gum up, well then, your fault!!  Then that "filter" will clog up.  There is also a magnet in the bottom of the pan to catch the metal shaving that are coming off due to not changing the fluid.  Transmissions from the late 80's are electronic for the most part and they are more sensitive to bad fluid.  I see trannies all the time with 90,000+ miles and never been changed.  Why?? Usually STUIPITY, or ignorance, and the unwilling to part with $79.99, or $159.99 at the dealer for the same service.  So the next time you want you 4X serviced, go to your fancy dealer and pay him twice the price, or do it yourself in your driveway, it's not that difficult. You can remove the pan all by yourself can't you, Cheap a$$ ignorant SOB.  :yikes:

Yes, I own and operate 5 of those "quickie" oil change places and I would be glad to decline service to anyone who acted as much of an a$$ as you described your little tirate.

[wavery]

Well...............now it's my turn.

I managed car dealership service Dept's for most of my career. In '98 I was hired by AutoNations USA to open up and manage one of there (now defunct) used car "Mega-Stores"). It was a 1st class $25 million facilities with all of the state of the art equipment for refurbishing and servicing used cars to sell to the public. This was one of 250 stores that AutoNations opened up nation wide between '96 and '98. They serviced and sold 75,000 cars per month and tracked every single car and everything that was done to that car and all of the after sales service that was required.

One of the pieces of equipment that we were sold was one of these transmission flush machines for every store. The machine cut our transmission service expense by 70% and our retail sales for the service increased by 30%. We thought that we were going to make a killing with this machine.

Six months down the road, we were having double the transmission failures than the national average. When we were guarantying these cars, this was a HUGE problem. We spent a bucket of $ on research on those machines and attributed most of the failures directly to this system. We went back to pulling the pan and changing the filters and our transmission failures dropped below the national average within 12 months.

A "Quicky lube" place would never know these statistics and wouldn't care anyway because they don't guarantee that transmission and it doesn't cost them a dime if the trans fails down the road. In fact, they wouldn't even know about it. All they do is change the oil if the customer comes in. I'd hate to tell you how many cars that we got into our shop that these places didn't put oil in the engine or forgot to re-tighten the drain plug or changed the oil every 3K for some customer and never changed the filter.

I could get all technical and give you all the reasons but I will simply say, if you have a car with less than 25K on it, a regular flush is sufficient. If your car has 50K+ and never been serviced, have the pan pulled and filter changed. If the facilities won't do it, it's because it is not as profitable or they don't have personnel that are capable (period). It takes a lot more time and the most they could hope to collect from you is the same $. They are also afraid of come-backs due to gasket leakage. The techs sometimes torque the gasket too tight (especially if they're not used to doing them) and they may leak. That costs them more $. Go somewhere else and tell them that you are willing to pay time and parts to have it done. Better yet, do it yourself and buy an aftermarket oil pan that has a built-in drain plug. The manufacturers do not install drain plugs on the pan to ensure that the pan will be dropped and filter will be changed with each service. If you're doing it yourself, short-cutting by some cheating tech is not an issue.

Bring in your own filter and gasket. You can buy them at most auto parts stores. Most are NOT screens. Most are a felt filter that is designed to pick-up fine particles. If it gets clogged, your fluid will not circulate. If you flush the system, some of those particles may get stuck in the valve body and other small orifices and cause early transmission failure.

I certainly won't stoop to calling people names because that just shows the intellect of the person posting and says a LOT for their credibility. :sombraro: I just don't do that, never have...never will. Everyone is entitled to an opinion......you now have mine. :U

[Fred420]

I truly am curious as to how changing the fluid only led to the failures?  You were dealing with used and possibly abused trade-ins and The fluid change can not cause a failure.  Those trans already had some type of problem before they even came in.  The first question I ask the customer is "Tell me what type of problem are you having."  In the 8 years I have had the machines, been doing this "Quickie Thing" now for 14 years, I have had 3 trans go bad after we changed the fluids.  When these were torn down by trans professionals, not by us, the problems were obvious.  Poor maintenece by the owners.  Heavy metal wear and not bad filters.  I have a 1985 Lincoln with 285,000 miles on it and it has the original trans and engine in it.  The fluid has been changed every year.  Maybe overkill, but no failures.  And, I am not a mechanic.  My degree is in Business and I am a retailor by trade.  

I do care about the problems that can occure.  We average 18,000 oil changes in each of my stores. 90,000 cars per year, my failure rate was .17%.  Yes, we have had a plug lose on exit, yes we have had a double gasket on exit.  My techs are human and mistakes do happen, as well as in the Dealerships or the Mega Stores or Pep Boys or ....... everywhere oil is changed.  Our industry gets a bad rap cause we change 75% of the oil in vehicles out there.  Again, mistakes do happen and we do care.  We lost 1 engine last year due to our error.  We put a new Jasper in it and the customer still comes back to us.  Our return rate, as tracked, is 85% over the last 8 years.  Customers do come first.  I guarentee it, my name is on the business.  I get all of the trade mags, so I do stay refreshed with the news.  Oh ......... we do pan drops if the customer request it, or if the milage is greater than 75,000 miles, than we do the flush service after that.  In and out in less than 1 hour for both.  Good profit margin .... LOL, but not as good as the other places.  We work on very tight margins.

Hope this brings a better view of us "Quickie" lubes.

I forgot ..... put a cooler on your TV  :-()

[AustinBoston]

I truly am curious as to how changing the fluid only led to the failures?

He answered that question before you asked it.

Austin

[wavery]

I truly am curious as to how changing the fluid only led to the failures?  You were dealing with used and possibly abused trade-ins and The fluid change can not cause a failure.  Those trans already had some type of problem before they even came in.  The first question I ask the customer is "Tell me what type of problem are you having."  In the 8 years I have had the machines, been doing this "Quickie Thing" now for 14 years, I have had 3 trans go bad after we changed the fluids.  When these were torn down by trans professionals, not by us, the problems were obvious.  Poor maintenece by the owners.  Heavy metal wear and not bad filters.  I have a 1985 Lincoln with 285,000 miles on it and it has the original trans and engine in it.  The fluid has been changed every year.  Maybe overkill, but no failures.  And, I am not a mechanic.  My degree is in Business and I am a retailor by trade.  

I do care about the problems that can occure.  We average 18,000 oil changes in each of my stores. 90,000 cars per year, my failure rate was .17%.  Yes, we have had a plug lose on exit, yes we have had a double gasket on exit.  My techs are human and mistakes do happen, as well as in the Dealerships or the Mega Stores or Pep Boys or ....... everywhere oil is changed.  Our industry gets a bad rap cause we change 75% of the oil in vehicles out there.  Again, mistakes do happen and we do care.  We lost 1 engine last year due to our error.  We put a new Jasper in it and the customer still comes back to us.  Our return rate, as tracked, is 85% over the last 8 years.  Customers do come first.  I guarentee it, my name is on the business.  I get all of the trade mags, so I do stay refreshed with the news.  Oh ......... we do pan drops if the customer request it, or if the milage is greater than 75,000 miles, than we do the flush service after that.  In and out in less than 1 hour for both.  Good profit margin .... LOL, but not as good as the other places.  We work on very tight margins.

Hope this brings a better view of us "Quickie" lubes.

I forgot ..... put a cooler on your TV  :-()

Dave,

As I stated before. We sold over 75,000 cars per month in the Mega-Stores alone. AutoNations owns over 600 dealerships nation-wide (or did, not sure now). We kept a lot of statistics and tracked service results on every different make & model of vehicle in a mainframe computer in Fort Lauderdale, Florida for all of the cars sold in all of the stores. Every part that was replaced and every nut & bolt that was turned was tracked and scrutinized. You're talking millions of cars a year.

When they saw the # of trans failures that were occurring in the Mega-Stores and not the dealerships (where they refused to install the tranny fluid exchange machines) it was pretty obvious that there was a problem. It cost AutoNations millions of dollars in transmission replacements on used vehicles that we sold.

Yes, a lot of the vehicles came in with trans problems and the fluid change doesn't "Fix" that. However, it was our finding that the fluid exchange substantially aggravated any wear problem that a vehicle had. It was determined that circulating that fluid through the trans picked up a lot of heavy metals that may have sat there for years and distributed it through the transmissions. We found that filters were being clogged and, torque converters and valve bodies were getting heavy metals that they wouldn't see under normal circumstances. It was also determined that (most) vehicles with less than 25K miles had no ill-effect from the fluid exchange. Vehicles with 100K miles would often fail after just a few hundred miles after the fluid exchange. Usually the valves in the valve body would get jammed and the car wouldn't shift or move at all.

When we stopped using the transmission fluid exchange procedure and went back to removing the pan and changing the filter, our transmission replacement rate dropped in half. The ONLY thing that we changed was the way that we serviced the trans.  We did not change the way that we bought cars.

They closed all of the Used Car Mega-Stores in 1999 and took a $5billion loss on them. It was a bad idea from the get-go but I blamed a lot of the failure on these high profit type schemes that AutoNations was sold a bill of goods on. All of the dealership Service Managers (like myself) fought against those trans fluid exchange machines from the very beginning. The "Upper Management" in an office in Florida (that probably got a kick-back from the manufacturer of the machines) forced us to continue using them, even though the facts kept building up against them. That's the big reason that the Mega-Stores failed.

Someone in a business like yours would never see the results like we did. We sold used cars with a 50K mile warranty (that wasn't real bright either). When the trans failed (for whatever reason) it came right back to us. The losses on high mileage cars with transmission failures was staggering. Every one of them got a trans fluid flush unless the vehicle had less than 25K miles on it. Then, we did nothing unless the fluid was discolored or smelled burnt. If you do a trans service and the trans fails 5K miles (or even 500) later, the guy isn't going to come to you......he's going straight to a transmission shop and they're going to sell him a $2K rebuilt trans. The correlation would never be made (IMO).

[aw738]

I have been in the retail automotive parts business for over 12 years and I  would have to agree with wavery about the trans flushing. Changing the filter and fluid on a regular basis is the best thing you can do. I do my own maintenance because if something happens to my vehicle there is no one to blame but myself. I don't have to worry if someone else made a mistake.

Rant on

I believe if you have the knowledge, physical ability, and aren't afraid to get your hands dirty you should do your own maintenance. It would surprise you to know how many people don't know how to even check there own oil. Men are worse than some women. Some people will spend thousands of dollars for a vehicle and not know any more about it than how to put gas in it and start it. For example men YES men not knowing what kind of car there driving. "Its the red one". It would be a GOOD DAY when you ARE required to change a tire and check your own fluids before you are allowed to even begin your driving test. If you fail that part of the test you don't get your licence. I'll stop there. Has my job made me bitter?   Would anyone like to trade jobs for awhile?

Rant off

[Nemesis56]

Also check between the radiator and ac condensor for debris.  About evey 5 years or so I pull the radiator lose and clean a carpet of bugs and cottonwood seeds from in front .  Usually the temp gauge will creep up in stop and go traffic is the first warning.  We have  tons of cottonwoods around here  it looks like snow on the ground at times...

[SPXTrader]

This started out as a change of gear lube, transfer case and reduction unit.

OK Fred420, I'll concede some of your points.  You're right, EVERYONE should stop thinking of cars made pre 1980.  I'll get a letter off to Barrett and Jackson first thing tomorrow about this.  I sure they will want to hear your wisdom, see their mistakes and close their business right away.  Sorry, but I have a 1972 vette and a 1969 Triumph TR6 in my garage, both bought brand new.  So "I'm a stupid SOB" for thinking about proper maintenance on these collector pieces, as they are pre 1980.  After reading your post, it seems the best thing I can do is to have them taken to the scrap yard and shredded.

The vehicle in question was a 1989, and yes, ask any reputable service tech (as Wavery so correctly pointed out) that yes, the tranny filter and gasket should be replaced at the proper mileage.  My truck had 75,000 on it at the time, and had one complete tranny job performed before - this means filter and gasket.  And no, it wasn't done by a quickie lube, but by me, because I knew it needed to be done and done properly.

You said "If you drop the pan to replace the filter, you only remove about 20% to 25% of the fluid.  So when you add back the 2-3 qts that were lost, all you did was mix the clean fluid with the dirty fluid.  That's smart!!"  If properly done, you drop the pan, replace the filter and gasket and then proceed with removing and replacing old/dirty tranny fluid.  If you don't replace the filter, aren't you mixing clean fluid with the dirty fluid in the filter?  You also stated that the "filter is about 3/8 of an inch thick and around 7 X 10 inches in dia.  It is a screen, or a joke of a filter".  Please tell us all your degrees in automotive design and involvement with the design and function of a Chevrolet transmission filter, or any automotive tranny filter for that matter.  Seems to me you believe you're a tad bit smarter than the design engineers that built the vehicle.  If this is so, why did they bother to put them there in the first place?  And I love your pure speculation that "If the filter needs to be changed, than (sic) that tranny is on it's way out".  I invite you to come to my home and drive this '89, with well over 100,000 on the odo.  If there is something wrong with the tranny, please tell me now so I can take it to someone reputable and have it properly serviced.

The "next time you (meaning me) want your 4X serviced, go to your fancy dealer and pay him twice the price, or do it yourself in your driveway, it's not that difficult.  You can remove the pan all by yourself can't you, cheap a$$ ignorant SOB".  Since you feel it is necessary to point out that you own 5 of these rip-off joints, I have done this work in my garage, and at least I know it's done right and I'm not being up-sold on parts/services I don't need.  Wavery's post clearly tells me that without the proper service you refuse to give (without the customer asking), twice the price from a fancy dealer with the job done right is worth the price.  By the way, I have a Dremel tool, and if you or any of your family need root canals or fillings, give me a ring.  I've got the correct equipment to bore a hole in your bad tooth.  A little JB Weld and you'll be good as new!  And let me give you a 10% off coupon if you come back within 3 months or 3000 sticks of beef jerky.

You don't need to worry about me darkening your quickie rip-off place, because anyone with an ounce of common sense knows places like yours are high pressure sales rip-offs.

I have no idea how old you are or your automotive background, but I can tear down and rebuild a Holley Quadrajet with my eyes closed.  Same with the valve lash on any British car 1964 to 1973.  Sorry, but I do it for the pure enjoyment of working on a fine piece of machinery, not like you as in your reply to Wavery's post where you stated "Good profit margin...LOL".  I feel sorry for the good people that drive into your place expecting to be treated honestly and have good work done for a fair price.  Not good profit margins with that work ethic, eh?

In my opinion, and probably anyone else that has been to one of these boiler room lube joints, you are the high pressure salesman, looking for profit margins above the customer's needs.

And since you replied like you did, all you succeeded in doing was reinforcing my belief that all you quickie lube a$$holes and just that:  arrogant a$$hole SOB's!

Wavery, thank you for the reply to this guys post.  It gives us all a little insight as to who knows what and who knows what's best for their customers.

Fred420, no hate toward you but you have proved that you are indeed an arrogant, profit seeking a$$hole SOB!  No appointment needed for that root canal, just drive up to bay 4 and we'll get right on it.

[AustinBoston]

In my opinion, and probably anyone else that has been to one of these boiler room lube joints, you are the high pressure salesman, looking for profit margins above the customer's needs.

I'll bet he sells a lot of nitrogen for tires as well...

And since you replied like you did, all you succeeded in doing was reinforcing my belief that all you quickie lube a$$holes and just that: arrogant a$$hole SOB's!

Imagine that...someone even more arrogant than me!  

Austin