BatteryMINDER not enough?

[chasd60]

I agree...don't deny that a ONE AMP charger is a tiny trickle charger that can take weeks to bring a battery up to charge. My cheap manual charger has a low setting...that is 2 amps. Whether or not the battery is good, the device he has does not qualify as a battery charger, even for a group 24 battery.
 
Austin

A trickle charger charges at a constant rate without regards to state of charge of the battery, This charger does not do that, it adjusts the rate of charge based upon battery state of charge.
From the website
Float Current5 mA - 200 mA*
* Actual current output is determined by individual battery demand.

 
You believe 2A does qualify as a battery charger but 1.33A as stated by the manufacturer does not?
 
(Battery) charger: a device for charging or recharging batteries
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

[chasd60]

Is that a typo? Two days at 1A is 24 amp-hours. That's not much on even a small group 24 battery.

The original post stated it took two days to charge the new battery.
 

I expect my group 24 battery (which is in good condition) to draw 6 amps for 24 hours or more when it goes below 12 volts.

I expect you will be in for a surprise. A group 24 only has about 85A/H capacity and that would be 100% discharge. Unless you proportionately increase the laod when the voltage drops off, you won't maintain a 6A load.
 

Also, if you put 14.4 volts on any battery (even a fully charged one) you would get a lot more than one amp.

Amperage is not a function of voltage, you can put out 1mA at 100V and you can put out 100A at 1V.
 
 

After reading the site, I think the batteryMINDER may give pulses of much higher current (at 14.x volts), but that they are short pulses that average only one amp (i.e. 4 amps for 1/4 second, 0 amps for 3/4 second). If it really charges the battery, it takes a loooong time to do so.
 
Austin

From the website (my emphasis)
The unit automatically desulphates in the maintenance mode after it completes the charging cycle.
 

Desulphation Pulse1.33A @ 3.26 MHz
That is 3.26 million times per second

[jawilson]

You might want to get yourself a hydrometer.

You know, this is one of those things I've said I needed for years. But every time I go into the auto parts store for something I forget to pick one up. Maybe it's time I just write myself a note...

[AustinBoston]

A trickle charger charges at a constant rate without regards to state of charge of the battery, This charger does not do that, it adjusts the rate of charge based upon battery state of charge.
From the website
Float Current 5 mA - 200 mA*
* Actual current output is determined by individual battery demand.

In any case .005A (5 mA) - 0.2 A (200 mA) does not a battery charger make.  My converter will put 25 amps (motre than 100 times as much as 200 mA) into the battery.
 

You believe 2A does qualify as a battery charger but 1.33A as stated by the manufacturer does not?

Absolutely not.  The 2A setting is little more than a trickle charge;  I said it was the "low" setting.  It's a small charger when on the High setting (6 amps).

Austin

[AustinBoston]

I expect you will be in for a surprise. A group 24 only has about 85A/H capacity and that would be 100% discharge. Unless you proportionately increase the laod when the voltage drops off, you won't maintain a 6A load.

Yes, my statement is an oversimplification.  It would start at 6 amps, and gradually drop to somewhere around 3 (at which point I would take it off the charger).  The average current would be 4.5 amps.
 

Amperage is not a function of voltage, you can put out 1mA at 100V and you can put out 100A at 1V.

What?  The single most basic electrical formula there is (Ohm's law) says that it is:

E = I x R

Where E is voltage, I is current, and R is resistance.  Solved for current, we get:

I = E / R

Unless you change the resistance, the current is a DIRECT function of the voltage.  When talking battery charging, there are only two ways to change the resistance - charge the battery, or put in a different battery.  So if you want to change the current (without changing the battery), you MUST change the voltage.

While you can put out 1 mA at 100 volts (or even 1,000,000 volts) and 1,000 amps at 1 volt, you can't do that without huge changes in the resistance of the load.  Within the context, the load is the battery being charged.
 

From the website (my emphasis)
The unit automatically desulphates in the maintenance mode after it completes the charging cycle.
 

Desulphation Pulse1.33A @ 3.26 MHz
That is 3.26 million times per second

And how long is the pulse?  It could easily still have a duty cycle of 1%, so that the average current would be 0.0133 amps (133 mA).  

But in reality, at 3.26 mhz, the battery acts like a huge capacitor, NOT a battery.  No charging takes place at those frequencies, and the battery would look almost like a dead short to the device.  You could get 1.33 amps to flow at about 15 mV above the battery charge level.

Before we go on, I worked for 13 years doing QA on electronic power supplies.  Many times a day, I had to read specs and calculate the loads needed to test a very wide variety of devices with DC inputs from 5 to 48 volts and DC outputs from 1.2 to 1,500 volts.  A mistake could fry a device (or a test jig).  

I also had to calculate leakage currents for transformers that had to be safety tested at up to 8,000 volts DC and 1,500 volts AC; these devices were used in medical equipment where failure could be lethal.  I had to write out and sign my test results.  If there was a problem, guess who was going to be in trouble?  I had to be right, and I did it every day.

Austin

[chasd60]

Yes, my statement is an oversimplification. It would start at 6 amps, and gradually drop to somewhere around 3 (at which point I would take it off the charger). The average current would be 4.5 amps.
 
 
 
What? The single most basic electrical formula there is (Ohm's law) says that it is:
 
E = I x R
 
Where E is voltage, I is current, and R is resistance. Solved for current, we get:
 
I = E / R
 
Unless you change the resistance, the current is a DIRECT function of the voltage. When talking battery charging, there are only two ways to change the resistance - charge the battery, or put in a different battery. So if you want to change the current (without changing the battery), you MUST change the voltage.
 
While you can put out 1 mA at 100 volts (or even 1,000,000 volts) and 1,000 amps at 1 volt, you can't do that without huge changes in the resistance of the load. Within the context, the load is the battery being charged.
 
 
 
And how long is the pulse? It could easily still have a duty cycle of 1%, so that the average current would be 0.0133 amps (133 mA).
 
But in reality, at 3.26 mhz, the battery acts like a huge capacitor, NOT a battery. No charging takes place at those frequencies, and the battery would look almost like a dead short to the device. You could get 1.33 amps to flow at about 15 mV above the battery charge level.
 
Before we go on, I worked for 13 years doing QA on electronic power supplies. Many times a day, I had to read specs and calculate the loads needed to test a very wide variety of devices with DC inputs from 5 to 48 volts and DC outputs from 1.2 to 1,500 volts. A mistake could fry a device (or a test jig).
 
I also had to calculate leakage currents for transformers that had to be safety tested at up to 8,000 volts DC and 1,500 volts AC; these devices were used in medical equipment where failure could be lethal. I had to write out and sign my test results. If there was a problem, guess who was going to be in trouble? I had to be right, and I did it every day.
 
Austin

You added R to my statement. R is a function of battery state of charge. Battery resistance changes with SOC (state of charge). Battery chargers work in reaction to the change in resistance therefore the output of a charger is proportionate to the internal resistance of the battery within the limits of the programmed algorithm in a smart charger.
 
I would continue with this discussion but backing up each little piece of data I present takes too long to fully document. I appreciate your background of many years ago AB.
 
I work as an Assistant Engineeer in the Corporate Reliability Lab of a Semiconductor manufacturer and my degree is in Electromechanical Technology.
I not only read the specs you referred to but I also write them in accordance with accepted industry standards, military standards and automotive standards.
I maintain, upgrade, automate and design equipment for our corporate lab as well as site labs that are located all over the world.
We make logic, swith, analog power, signal conditioning and discrete devices and all of these pass through our lab at one time or another. Some of them high frequency and some of them straight DC.
 
I can back up everything I present with knowledge and references from today but it doesn't seem that it would be minimize any disagreement and I don't have the time to research, document and argue.
 
The BatteryMINDER IS enough and that is my final answer.:p

[wavery]

You added R to my statement. R is a function of battery state of charge. Battery resistance changes with SOC (state of charge). Battery chargers work in reaction to the change in resistance therefore the output of a charger is proportionate to the internal reistance of the battery within the limits of the programmed algorithm in a smart charger.
 
I would continue with this discussion but backing up each little piece of data I present takes too long to fully document. I appreciate your background of many years ago AB.
 
I work as an Assistant Engineeer in the Corporate Reliability Lab of a Semiconductor manufacturer and my degree is in Electromechanical Technology.
I not only read the specs you referred to but I also write them in accordance with accepted industry standards, military standards and automotive standards.
I maintain, upgrade, automate and design equipment for our corporate lab as well as site labs that are loacated all over the world.
We make logic, swith, analog power, signal conditioning and discrete devices and all of these pass through our lab at one time or another. Some of them high frequency and some of them straight DC.
 
I can back up everything I present with knowledge and references from today but it doesn't seem that it would be minimize any disagreement and I don't have the time to research, document and argue.
 
The BatteryMINDER IS enough and that is my final answer.:p

YAAA!!
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What he said :p

[dirtracin]

So a 6 amp battery charger isn't enough?

[Nemesis56]

So a 6 amp battery charger isn't enough?

I've used a 6amp charger for over 20 years on my deep cycle batteries for my boats and never had a problem.

[dirtracin]

Just what I want to hear, thanks


Rick

I've used a 6amp charger for over 20 years on my deep cycle batteries for my boats and never had a problem.

[AustinBoston]

YAAA!!
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What he said :p

So you say a 1 amp charger is not a trickle charger?

Austin

[AustinBoston]

You added R to my statement. R is a function of battery state of charge.  Battery resistance changes with SOC (state of charge).  Battery chargers work in reaction to the change in resistance therefore the output of a charger is proportionate to the internal resistance of the battery within the limits of the programmed algorithm in a smart charger.

And they do this by, um, changing the voltage!

Is there a problem with the formula I posted?

Is there a problem with anything I posted?

Do you have ANYTHING, to back up your statement "Amperage is not a function of voltage?"

If I posted 500 words refuting the statement, with facts, you might just try...even a link to a web site or something.

I posted all that crap about my experience because every time I talk about the facts with electricity people make long-winded but utterly irrelevant analogies.  If you have facts, that would be fine.  If there is something I am missing, that would be fine.

But if 10% of the stuff you posted about yourself is true, then you know that the only way to push more current through a battery is to increase the applied voltage or to discharge the battery.  Current IS directly proportional to voltage.  The fact that it is also inversely proportional to the resistance doesn't make that untrue.

I still stand by my assessment.  The BatteryMINDER is a maintenance device; it is not a charger.

Austin

[chasd60]

And they do this by, um, changing the voltage!
 
Is there a problem with the formula I posted?
 
Is there a problem with anything I posted?
 
Do you have ANYTHING, to back up your statement "Amperage is not a function of voltage?"
 
If I posted 500 words refuting the statement, with facts, you might just try...even a link to a web site or something.
 
I posted all that crap about my experience because every time I talk about the facts with electricity people make long-winded but utterly irrelevant analogies. If you have facts, that would be fine. If there is something I am missing, that would be fine.
 
But if 10% of the stuff you posted about yourself is true, then you know that the only way to push more current through a battery is to increase the applied voltage or to discharge the battery. Current IS directly proportional to voltage. The fact that it is also inversely proportional to the resistance doesn't make that untrue.
 
I still stand by my assessment. The BatteryMINDER is a maintenance device; it is not a charger.
 
Austin

Reread the entire first page of this topic and you can see where any response posted, even with links to the manufacturers website, you argued about. I should have known better and only responded to the originator of the topic. It is no longer worth my time to respond to you because no matter the response, it is incorrect in your eyes.
 
And FYI, a trickle charger outputs a constant current without regard to battery state of charge, whether it be 1A or 2A. This device changes to "float" as I previously stated, Wavery doesn't need to point that out to you, I have already done so in a previous post you seem to want to ignore.

[jawilson]

Geez, maybe I should jump back in now...  :yikes:  :p

I went out and bought the Black & Decker 1093DBD, which seems to have just about every option under the sun. I'm now in the process of playing around with it on the original, 6 year old, half dead battery (just in case I do something wrong don't want to blow up the new one .

So far everything looks to be working, but time will tell. I plan on using the "real" charger once a month while the battery is in storage, with the BatteryMINDER hooked up in between. We'll see how I do on the next dry camping trip doing that.

[chasd60]

Geez, maybe I should jump back in now... :yikes: :p
 
I went out and bought the Black & Decker 1093DBD, which seems to have just about every option under the sun. I'm now in the process of playing around with it on the original, 6 year old, half dead battery (just in case I do something wrong don't want to blow up the new one .
 
So far everything looks to be working, but time will tell. I plan on using the "real" charger once a month while the battery is in storage, with the BatteryMINDER hooked up in between. We'll see how I do on the next dry camping trip doing that.

That's cool!!
Get a hydrometer so you will only equalize when necessary. It seems like the desulfation mode is similar to the same mode in the BatteryMINDER, low current with high frequency pulses to dislodge the sulfates on the battery plates.
I have tried to revive a tired old group 24 from my popup with no luck. I pretty much ran it down to low lighting conditions several times which is below low recommended discharge level.