List of things I've broke

[wavery]

I understand your point and I don't disagree but have you ever listened to a sales pitch from a dealer.  They talk like their PUPs are as strong as a battleship even though they shoould know from service records that quality has been sacrificed for the issues you mention.

Is that right?

What can I say.....we live in a generation where people are happy to pay $4 a gallon for bottled water and scream like hell because they have to pay $3 a gallon for gas.

It's ALL about marketing my friend . A lot of what we pay for items is determined by marketing research. If enough demand is there to make a profit, they will build it. In essence, we determine, by our demand for goods, what the seller can charge. If he can't make a buck filling that demand (because the cost of production is higher than the traffic will bear), it won't get built. If he tries to charge too much, we won't buy it.

As for salesman......most were pizza delivery boys a few weeks before. They have enough (sales) training to boost their ego and get turned loose on the public. Most consumers know more about the product that they are shopping for than the salesman does. We just assume that the salesman has been trained on the product. Most aren't. They are trained on selling technique. It's all about marketing!!!

Remember this......"They never put good wine in a fancy bottle". Think about that for a while.  That was one of my Dad's favorite sayings........

[AustinBoston]

What can I say.....we live in a generation where people are happy to pay $4 a gallon for bottled water and scream like hell because they have to pay $3 a gallon for gas.

You don't buy water at the same place you buy gas, do you?  At the convenience store where I buy gas, bottled tap water is $10.32 a gallon ($1.29 for a 16 oz. bottle).  It's a little more if they claim it's spring water.  :yikes:

It makes you main point a stronger, though.  Create demand (through marketing) and you can raise the price.

BTW, certain types of marketing (specifically advertizing) has it's own supply-and-demand rules...there comes a point where more advertizing does not sell more product.

Austin

[wavery]

You don't buy water at the same place you buy gas, do you?  At the convenience store where I buy gas, bottled tap water is $10.32 a gallon ($1.29 for a 16 oz. bottle).  It's a little more if they claim it's spring water.  :yikes:

It makes you main point a stronger, though.  Create demand (through marketing) and you can raise the price.

BTW, certain types of marketing (specifically advertizing) has it's own supply-and-demand rules...there comes a point where more advertizing does not sell more product.

Austin

How do you think it makes the oil companies feel when they see people paying that kind of money for bottled water? That is one of the reasons that we are paying $3 a gallon for gas. The public is telling the oil companies that it's OK to gouge and they will accept it.......watch gas go to $5 within the next 2 years. Part of that is due to the fact that we will tolerate it......just like we tolerate $10 a gallon for water (that's criminal). I mean...put yourself in the oil company's shoes.....what a slap in the face.

Your advertising statement is correct also. Advertising is really a small part of marketing, however. Everybody knows that if a movie is over-advertised, it's gotta be lousy. Same goes for other products. Manufacturers know what it takes to move their product. A good product sells by word-of-mouth. That's the ultimate advertising. TV is horrendously expensive and the bottom line is, the consumer pays for that advertising in the price of the product. The producer knows the quality of their product and what it will take to move it.

It all goes back to............"They never put good wine in a fancy bottle".

[AustinBoston]

How do you think it makes the oil companies feel when they see people paying that kind of money for bottled water?

That's why so many gas stations today are also convenience stores.  While many of them are independent or chain distributors, some are owned by oil companies or through their holding companies.  When I was a kid, the only thing you could get at a gas station (besides auto-related stuff) came out of a vending machine, and was limited to pop and cigarettes.  Today, the kings of gouge will gouge you with anything.  $4/gal milk? We go that. $10/gal water? We go that. $3/slice pizza? $30/bottle propane? $5/pack cigarettes?  Need an ATM?  We got that, we got that...

Have we sufficiently hijacked this thread yet?  :U

Austin

[beacher]

...  Today, the kings of gouge will gouge you with anything.  $4/gal milk? We go that. $10/gal water? We go that. $3/slice pizza? $30/bottle propane? $5/pack cigarettes?  Need an ATM?  We got that, we got that.......

A PopUp is a tent on box on a cheap utility trailer! :p  But then again, a pricy new Monaco ClassA DP is nothing more than a box on a cheap truck chassis!

When I was in College, my professors in the Engineering Department were adamant that we quickly learned to look at everything as a combination of components, nothing more.  They said it would help us greatly with statics and dynamics calculations, and costing.  They were right!  :sombraro:

And oh boy!  When it comes to cost, the general public would be SHOCKED to really know what things cost to make vs. what the Marketing Department's of the world have taught people to pay.

Our PopUps that retail for $3,000 to $26,000 realistically only cost $400 to $2500 including all design and engineering, material, labor, and any and all associated overhead costs.  And, as another example, an expensive bottle of $80.00 salon-quality shampoo in a fancy printed bottle costs about $0.15.

Most people don't even realize that it costs LESS in 2007 to produce food items, manufactured goods - (like cars and RV's), chemicals, raw steel, virtually everything... than it did just 10, 30, or 100 years ago.  It's all due to continuous improvement, gains in efficiency, mass production, and automation.

What we are paying for is the standard of living that we have become accustomed to, at the level of quality that we have learned to accept.  The cost of living has gone though the roof with increased wages, increased spending, reduced saving, and the public generally willing and able to pay the price that they pay for the goods they purchase.

My Ecomomics professors are probably reeling now that they are building and planning to distribute (for free to children), $100 notebook computers to the poorest of the poor in the world.  In fifty years or so, with the Economic development of China and Asia, and the utilization of untapped resources in Africa, the standard of living will continue to grow exponentially.

So, in about seventy years some guy in Benin, Nigeria might be writing about the loose screws on his very own Fleetwood PopUp! :U


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[AustinBoston]

Our PopUps that retail for $3,000 to $26,000 realistically only cost $400 to $2500 including all design and engineering, material, labor, and any and all associated overhead costs.

The world leader in pop-ups (Fleetwood) has been loosing money for about 3 years.  The pop-up market has shrunk to about 20% (in units) of what it was 20 years ago.  If there was that much margin, I'd cut prices in half and command 90% of the market instead of 45%.  Any marketing person worth minimum wage would know the same.

Austin

[txsarge]

The world leader in pop-ups (Fleetwood) has been loosing money for about 3 years.  The pop-up market has shrunk to about 20% (in units) of what it was 20 years ago.  If there was that much margin, I'd cut prices in half and command 90% of the market instead of 45%.  Any marketing person worth minimum wage would know the same.

Austin

Yeah, but lose enough money the executives can manipulate the stock prices enough to make a huge killing.   :mad:

And, I understand your point about loosing money.  The cost of the PUP includes a lot more than just production.  Design, marketing, advertising, tooling for production, salaries for non-production employees, and many other costs have to be included.  While they maybe cheap to build, there are expenses to selling them.

What was this topic about?

[AustinBoston]

The cost of the PUP includes a lot more than just production.  Design, marketing, advertising, tooling for production, salaries for non-production employees, and many other costs have to be included.  While they maybe cheap to build, there are expenses to selling them.

Didn't read what I quoted, did you?  It said:

Our PopUps that retail for $3,000 to $26,000 realistically only cost $400 to $2500 including all design and engineering, material, labor, and any and all associated overhead costs.

Eveything you listed as "additional" is included in what beecher was saying went into the $400-$2500.

Austin

[beacher]

Didn't read what I quoted, did you?  It said:



Eveything you listed as "additional" is included in what beecher was saying went into the $400-$2500.

Austin

Yup, that's what Beacher wrote alright! :p

Guys, don't get all torn up over this stuff.  The original post was simply about the quality of a new PopUp being less than expected.

My reply was an over the top Engineering/Economics rationale for his perceived  quality issue.  This issue is actually my career.  I'm an Industrial Engineer by training, a Professional Engineer.  I'm have usually been found roaming the streets as an employed Manager or Director of Quality for various well known Aerospace and Commercial Fortune 500 companies during the past 17 years.

I go camping in a 2004 Fleetwood GTE Niagara, which apparently by sheer statistical anomaly, has NOT had any quality problems.  OK, I did replace the shower faucet due to a faulty anti-syphon valve, but that's been it!

We, the general public, have accepted by our purchasing power what we now have available to us for purchase.  I highly recommend that if you don't like a particular product, don't buy it.  Speak with your wallet.

Capitalism.  Ya gotta love it! :U

[ScouterMom]

I think that's why I bought old, (and I mean OLD - a '73 starcraft).  

I looked at the new ones, and probably could have streatched and finaced one - but it would have been much smaller, and with less features, than my 35 yr old starcraft.  Even allowing for the fact that I've probably invested loads of time and twice it's original cost repairing and improving it, (I paid $400 for it and probably have at least another $400 to $600 in materials and things added) the basic camper itself is still strong and sturdy.  Anything that could come apart already has, and has been fixed.

laura

[Dray]

Since my original post everything I originally said I broke has been fixed.  Since then I have broken the following:

Door latch (again)
Tongue jack (again)
Outside paneling loose (again, but now its on the other side)
Hinge thingee on my swing galley

The good thing is that the fridge is working awesome.  I'm pretty disgusted with all the problems, especially the tongue jacks.  My original one was for 800 lbs., the replacement 1000 lbs.  Even though theres a wheel I don't think they're designed to be moved much, especially with the jack extended.

[PattieAM]

Considering the vibration these units get when going down the road, I'm surprised at the few things I've had to 'tighten up':

bunk end roller screws - have to check them every trip
shower hose connection - this baby vibrates loose, but only requires hand tightening - unless I'm a dumb cluck and forget to use the pressure regulator!

water line to toilet - might have been either vibration or too much pressure, but I had a leak - hand tightened (once I found the connection) and no further leaks.

Gotta ask the original poster - how in the world did the tongue jack break off?  I know I couldn't get my wheel loose for love or money (had I tapped it with the rubber mallet probably would have), and towed 30 miles with the wheel on!

[Dray]

Gotta ask the original poster - how in the world did the tongue jack break off?  I know I couldn't get my wheel loose for love or money (had I tapped it with the rubber mallet probably would have), and towed 30 miles with the wheel on!

I have a talent for breaking things.  Actually it happened like this...I was at home in the driveway, which is on a slant up to the house.  I was trying to disconnect the PU.  I have a weight distribution hitch (wdh) and in order to undo these things you have to jack up while still connected to the TV to release the wdh.  This stress combined with the angle of the PU in the driveway I think put to much stress on the tongue jack.  The tongue jack didn't break but the weld holding it to the tongue did.  Really startled me when it did.  

Once the tongue jack broke I was really puzzled about how I was going to get the PU disconnected from the TV, which it was still attached.  Wanna know how I did it?  I used a motorcycle jack, but even that didn't raise the thing high enough, so I had to put wood on top of the jack in order to get the thing off.  Then I put jack stands under the frame to make it more steady.

Question I have now is this.  If you put a wdh on your PU do you need a stronger tongue jack?  The process of using a WDH puts A LOT of tension on the tongue jack.  The two I broke were rated at 800lbs and 1000 lbs.  If i get a new one it will be one that can support like 3000 lbs.