polar package for pups?

[AustinBoston]

According to page 5 of the Mr. Heater Buddy manual the "Oxygen Depletion Sensor" is simply hole in the side of the venturi tube, past the pilot orifice.

Page 2: "Early signs of carbon monoxide poisoning resemble the flu, with headache, dizziness and/or nausea. If you have these signs, heater may not be working properly. Get fresh air at once! Have heater serviced."

Page 2: "Combustion by-products produced when using this product contain carbon monoxide, a chemical known to
the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects
(or other reproductive harm)."

Page 3: "When used without adequate combustion and ventilation air, this heater may give off excessive CARBON MONOXIDE, an odorless, poisonous gas."

There are three other references in the manual to carbon monoxide (total of six).

The only reference to an oxygen depletion sensor is on page 5.  There is a diagram pointing to a hole.  It is labeled "Oxygen Depletion Sensor."  Since the term is not used or explained in the text, it is impossible to tell whether the hole is the "oxygen depletion sensor," where the oxygen depletion sensor is located (inside the hole), or where the oxygen sensor would be located if the device was equipped with one.  If the sensor really is just a hole in the venturi tube, that is a bad thing, because it can easily become clogged.

There is one reference to "oxygen" on page one of the manual.  The words "depletion" "sensor" and "O2" do not appear in the text (only in the diagram label on page 5).

If this device really does have an oxygen depletion sensor (like it says on the outside of the box), it doesn't actually say anything about it in the manual.  This is odd, because it puts information about the tipover switch (another safety device) in capital letters at the bottom of page 3.  But please go to the top of the next column, where it says: "NEVER OPERATE THE HEATER WHILE SLEEPING!"

Austin

[dandreas]

I'm with you DoubleD... if you paid for it and it works, why use anything but the heater already provided?!  Happy camping to all those brave enough to face the elements!

[fritz_monroe]

I agree completely with Austin.  The cost of a CO detector is a real cheap price to pay to ensure that the sensor in a $100 device will work properly.  My life and my family's lives are worth far more than a $20 CO detector.

[MoJoCamping]

You guys are crazy camping in all that white stuff!  Nice to know the little pu holds up well!

[tlhdoc]

I'm with you DoubleD... if you paid for it and it works, why use anything but the heater already provided?! Happy camping to all those brave enough to face the elements!

Here are a few reasons why I use electric heat in the winter, if I have electric hookups.  Why pay for propane when I have already paid to use the electric at the campground.  The furnace wakes me up turning off and on, the AC heat strip runs all the time and gives me a nice white noise to sleep by.  The furnace provides heat/no heat.  The electric is a steady heat.  The furnace blows the hot air toward my shower, which is very nice when showering or using the toilet.  The bad thing is that the heat rises to the roof of the PU and does not circulate very well.  The AC unit (or fan if dry camping) blows the heat into the bunkends.  I have a furnace and use it when needed, but I don't see a reason to use it when I have electric to plug my camper into.

[austinado16]

Austin you're confusing how an O2 sensor in an automobile works with what is provided in these heaters.

An O2 Sensor is a vehicle is heated both electrically, and by the exhaust gas temps.  Using disimilar metals it is looking at the amount of oxygen present in the exhaust gasses. The amount of oxygen present creates a voltage between 0 and 1 volt, ever changing, and this electrical impulse is sent to the vehicle's onboard fuel injection computer.  The computer then changes the duration of the ground signal to the fuel injectors to either have them spray for a longer, or shorter duration in milliseconds.  Whole different situation then what's in a heater.

And again, the "warning" in your posts sort of side-steps the issue that all of these heaters must be used with windows and vents opened slightly.  It would be like warning people about how their cars will kill them when the start the engine in their garage and have the garage door closed.

I'm not saying your advice isn't important, I'm just saying it's sort of a moot point.

[AustinBoston]

Austin you're confusing how an O2 sensor in an automobile works with what is provided in these heaters.

What is provided with these heaters?  I'm starting to think "nothing but marketing hype."

And again, the "warning" in your posts sort of side-steps the issue that all of these heaters must be used with windows and vents opened slightly.

If you read WHAT THE MANUFACTURER (not me) says, the device (specifically the Buddy heater) ALWAYS produces CO in use.  The production of CO becomes excessive if there is not an adequate air supply.  It says nothing about an O2 sensor turning it off.

This is something I have been saying for years.

But the argument I've heard over and over here and elsewhere (I have even spouted it myself) is that the oxygen sensor in the Buddy Heater turns the device off if there is not enough oxygen for the device to run safely.  Surprise, surprise, there is NOTHING in the device's own manual that even suggests that!  Nothing.

It would be like warning people about how their cars will kill them when the start the engine in their garage and have the garage door closed.

Not quite.  First, a garage door is a lot bigger than a pop-up window.  Second, people do not go to sleep in their garage with the engine running even with the door open unless they are trying to commit suicide.

Sorry, but anyone who uses one of these things without a CO detector is gambling with life and death.

BTW, although the risk of CO is significant, the risk of fire is far greater.

Austin

[flyfisherman]

I plan on doing some cold weather camping.(high 20s,low 30s at night,mid 30s,mid 40s during the day)I was wondering if there is a polar package for pups like the packages available for tts.

More and more I'm becoming a fair weather camper! However, do like to get out early in the spring and late in fall after those elusive western North Carolina mountain trout. Try to plan when it's going to be a little on the warmer side but do get caught out when night time temps drop to freezing and, in fact, as low as 25 degrees. On one Michigan fall steelhead fishing trip it dipped down to 22 with lots of sleet and snow!

Learned that by covering the bunk ends with Reflectix that it makes a significant difference in retaining heat for cold weather camping and cuts way down on the humidity accumulating on the interior bunk-end canvas roof. Here's a pix from last spring's early outing - just click on the photo which will become larger - (disregard the trout bum clutter) - but note how I have tied the bunk ends with those plastic tarps, which underneath is the Reflectix 5/8" insulation. Even without the Refectix, the plastic taps help retain heat and thwart off humidity accumulation ... but the reflectix is so much better!


Fly

[austinado16]

This is like kittens batting a ball of yarn back and forth.

Again.......they're to be used with windows and a vent cracked open.

I've put a call into the engineer for Olympian Wave Catalytic Safety Heaters, and I'll post the results of that conversion.  I was first put through to the same guy I'd talked to before, who "they" claimed was their resident "expert" on the catalytic heaters.  This is the same guy who told me......when I asked how much of the dangerous gas CO, they produce......that they produce about as much as an infant.  If you'll remember that thread I was soon corrected in that people and animals exhale CO2, not CO.  Again today when I asked about "the dangerous gas CO" I got his small infant answer.  When I told him we don't exhale CO, he said, "Right, CO2."  

That's when I asked to speak to someone in engineering.

I may have to just take mine over to an automotive shop with my spare propane tank, fire it up in the driveway and have them "snif" it with their 5 gas exhaust gas analyzer.  Then I'll get readings on Hydrocarbons, CO, CO2, O2, and NOX.  Based on what I've seen come out of catalytic convertors on cars, the HC's(parts per million) and the CO% are usually zero, or nearly zero.

[AustinBoston]

This is like kittens batting a ball of yarn back and forth.

Only if you miss the fact that the last several posts of mine have been in the context of the Buddy heater by Mr. Heater, where someone could actually point me to real product literature.

The web site for Camco (http://www.camco.net/), the manufacturer of the Olympian heater, is useless for real information, only stating "None of the deadly exhaust gases associated with flame heaters are produced with catalytic units" in the FAQ.

They also have this little gem: "The heater operates below the temperature necessary to support flame-type combustion and no heat is lost through a vent or flu."  Hello?  Don't you need to open a vent or window?  Isn't that a vent?  Doesn't heat escape through it?  Oh, we just ignore those facts.

Based on what I've seen come out of catalytic convertors on cars, the HC's(parts per million) and the CO% are usually zero, or nearly zero.

This could go a couple ways, but automotive catalytic converters operate at temps well in excess of the Olympian heaters (at least if the "The heater operates below the temperature necessary to support flame-type combustion" is true), and so I expect a different result.

Austin

[want2camp]

All I can say is...WOW!!  I want to camp with you!  We are planning to camp this winter-have a furnace / a/c installed and an electric heater...don't know how well either work, just bought the camper this summer.  If nothing else, we'll pull 'er out in the driveway during a snowstorm this winter and see how it works!

[austinado16]

Okay, just talked to Rob in engineering at US Catalyics, a division of Camco Manufacturing.  Nice guy and very helpful.

He's done "emmissions" testing on their Wave Catalytic Heaters with the following results:

Efficiency:
98.7-99%

Emmissions:

Carbon Monoxide=40-50ppm (parts per million) which = .00004-.00005%CO on the high setting and on low and medium settings, only about 1-10ppm.

Carbon Dioxide= .5-.6%

Dioxide=20% (he called this a measure of how much water/moisture is produced)

VOC's=45ppm (he discribed this as "other" gasses)

With regards to low oxygen shut-off, on their base models it is simply the ineffecient burn process, whether it's brought on by low oxygen levels due to using up the oxygen, or due to altitutude, will cause the catalytic pad to cool to a point that the thermocouple is no longer making sufficient millivolts to keep the gas valve held open......the valve closes and the heater is shut off.   On their models that did actually have a "system" it was nothing more than a pilot light that remained lit (their base models extinguish the pilot light right after start up).  The pilot was what was sensative to how much oxygen it received and if it went out due to low oxygen levels, then the thermocouple would close the gas valve and the heater would shut down.

It was Rob's feeling that the heaters become less effecient above 5,000' elevation, and therefore the emmissions levels would go up.  However, if you look at how low the CO% is.....basically it's zero.....an increase in CO would still not produce much at all.

Considering they are being used with a vent and a window cracked open, the emmissions levels are nothing.  The exhaust gas analyzers I've used in the automotive field would not even be capable of measuring CO that low.