Global Warming

[LimeJeeeep]

quote"especially now with the Bush recession in full swing"

your kidding right ......the CRA was perverted by previous administrations ...and rainbow push ,dodd and barney frank were in on it .DO YOUR HOME WORK...OH btw DO YOU "REMEMBER" 09/11/01 !

[viking camper]

I remember in the early 70's all the talk was about acid rain. Trees in the east (Kentucky, Tennessee ect)were losing their leaves due to all of the coal buring power plants causing acid rain. Turns out it was just the cycle of life (naturally occuring tree blight). Then in the late 70's it was another ice age (cause we has some really cold winters). Do I think the climate is changing, yes it is. Everything is a cycle. Do I believe all the junk they are pushing? No because everyone has an agenda. Everyone. I find all the talk about how we affect the climate humorous. Kinda like a bunch of flees arguing about were the dog they are riding on is going and what they can do to change it.

[LimeJeeeep]

QUOTE { Kinda like a bunch of flees arguing about were the dog they are riding on is going and what they can do to change it.}

Now thats even funnier then Al gore thinking he invented the internet. :-()

[AustinBoston]

No because everyone has an agenda. Everyone.

We'd all get along better if everyone could admit it to themselves.  Everyone has an agenda, including me.

Austin

[Shredder]

Do I think the climate is changing, yes it is. Everything is a cycle. Do I believe all the junk they are pushing? No because everyone has an agenda. Everyone. I find all the talk about how we affect the climate humorous. Kinda like a bunch of flees arguing about were the dog they are riding on is going and what they can do to change it.

Interesting, do you have any evidence to support your claim?
I suppose your right when you say everyone has an agenda. Mine is to provide a safe clean earth for my grandchildren. And yours is?
 I've been able to eat fresh caught fish, hunt un-contaminated birds and deer, but also have seen wasting disease and TB in deer, tons of warnings on eating fish from polluted waters, seen tumors in great lakes caught fish, we still have pcb's in fish despite the ban ages ago, and on and on. I want better for my grand kids. I guess I'm not willing to give up  a clean environment for cheaper gas or cheap products from China. Remember all the fuss about going from regular gas to un-leaded? We barely even think about it now, but it made a huge difference. I refuse to be blinded by the anti environment companies or people. It's funny and sad when you read how 32000 scientist say global warming is a mith, and it spreds like wildfire, people site it as evidence, and then you see their 32000 number is a mith, as is their scientist claim. Some of us are so willing to believe anything that would satisfy our desire for more and cheaper. I'm kind of surprised as well because as a group we spend a great deal of time out of doors, but most don't take the time or spend any effort to defend it.......Shredder

[Shredder]

quote"especially now with the Bush recession in full swing"

your kidding right ......the CRA was perverted by previous administrations ...and rainbow push ,dodd and barney frank were in on it .DO YOUR HOME WORK...OH btw DO YOU "REMEMBER" 09/11/01 !

Any pol who voted to end regulation on the banking industry should be held responsible, Dems and Repubs. I think Dodd voted with his biggest contributors the banks, I'm not so sure about Frank, do you have his voting record on it? I guess I do not know what rainbow push is, sounds like a icy treat.  Remember Bush's phrase ownership society? he said he wanted all people to own their own home. He did however neglect to tell us how they could afford it. This how they pushed people into homes they could not afford. The persons who bought this, hook line and sinker have some responsibility as well. When your willing to falsify a loan ap even though your being pushed into it, your responsible as much as the bank. And now a lot of responsible people are paying the price.
BTW what's 9/11 got to do with the Bush recession?        shredder

[Shredder]

quote"especially now with the Bush recession in full swing"

your kidding right ......the CRA was perverted by previous administrations ...and rainbow push ,dodd and barney frank were in on it .DO YOUR HOME WORK...OH btw DO YOU "REMEMBER" 09/11/01 !

Here's my HOME WORK From wiki on the CRA act and it's relevance to the current crisis:

[edit] Relation to 2008 financial crisis
See also: Subprime mortgage crisis and Global financial crisis of 2008

[JimS]

I have a degree in geology and have looked at this global warming thing for some time now.  I have some questions for those that think man is the cause for the current situation:

What is the normal sea level and how much has it changed over the last 120,000 years?  In other words, what is the range of variation, particularly in the last 12,000 years?

What were the "Climatic Optimums"?

What was the Medieval Warming Period?  For thoses that believe in the myth (yes MYTH, not MITH) that it was a regional event, it does show up in the Vostoc ice cores.

What was the Little Ice Age?

Why are the ice cap on Mars disappearing?

Why has the Earth cooled in the last decade?

Why were the hottest years back in the early '30s?  (Hint: read the CORRECTED NASA data).

Why was Iceland once called "Vineland"?

What happened to the Viking settlements in Greenland and the wine industry in the England?

Besides these little questions, the "glaciers" in Glacier National Park are not remnants of the last ice age.  The ice age glacires are long gone, having melted between 12,000 to 10,000 years ago.  The current glaciers are less than 7,000 years old.  This is also true of the European glaciers.

Until we can answer, definitively, the causes of past warming trends, and compare that with today, we have no way of knowing how much of an effect man is having on the climate.  We need to have a baseline and know the normal variations in the climate and why they occur.  Then, and only then will we have enough data to see if the current changes are within the normal range or not.  And if not, why?

This is not to imply that we can continue to be gluttonous and wasteful in our energy and natural resourses use.  Being "green", for lack of a better word, and trying to minimize one's impact on the environment is simply good manners.

[CajunCamper]

Interesting, do you have any evidence to support your claim?
I suppose your right when you say everyone has an agenda. Mine is to provide a safe clean earth for my grandchildren. And yours is?
 I've been able to eat fresh caught fish, hunt un-contaminated birds and deer, but also have seen wasting disease and TB in deer, tons of warnings on eating fish from polluted waters, seen tumors in great lakes caught fish, we still have pcb's in fish despite the ban ages ago, and on and on. I want better for my grand kids. I guess I'm not willing to give up  a clean environment for cheaper gas or cheap products from China. Remember all the fuss about going from regular gas to un-leaded? We barely even think about it now, but it made a huge difference. I refuse to be blinded by the anti environment companies or people. It's funny and sad when you read how 32000 scientist say global warming is a mith, and it spreds like wildfire, people site it as evidence, and then you see their 32000 number is a mith, as is their scientist claim. Some of us are so willing to believe anything that would satisfy our desire for more and cheaper. I'm kind of surprised as well because as a group we spend a great deal of time out of doors, but most don't take the time or spend any effort to defend it.......Shredder

I find your rants extremely offensive. Who do you think you are to talk this way to those of us that may not see every issue the way you see them. I suppose you have all the answers to lifes delimas and everyone that doesn't agree with you on every point is somehow beneath your superior intelect.

You assume that those of us that haven't been convinced that global warming is totally man made doesn't care about the environment. You couldn't be farther from the truth. Sure there are those out there that have no regard for the environment, but I don't think that's the group your speaking to on this site. We all love the outdoors, most of us here have changed the way we do things in order to decrease our footprint here. I've never heard anyone here say they aren't in favor of a cleaner environment, never. So for you to sit up on your high horse and preach down to all of us little people is a bit unsettling.

I have a lot of respect for scientist, but guess what, they are all mere humans and they make lots of mistakes. That fact is proven every day as they reverse older opinions almost daily. 20 years ago they believed this, now they believe that and in 10 years they'll change their mind again. There was a day when the top minds in the world thought the earth was flat. Science is defined as: The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

Science and the facts that science has proclaimed as undesputable fact have changed greatly over the years and thank goodness for that or else we would still be left behind in the dark ages.

And another thing, I'm not a big Bush fan, I know he could have done things better, but to believe that this economic mess was started during the Bush administration shows that you don't do much homework before running your mouth.


CajunCamper

[viking camper]

Interesting, do you have any evidence to support your claim?
I suppose your right when you say everyone has an agenda. Mine is to provide a safe clean earth for my grandchildren. And yours is?
 .......Shredder

Wow.
I to would like to protect the eviroment also. And I agree removing lead was a great thing. Also all the pesticides, propellants in aerosol cans and the many other things that have been done thru the years. But I like to move with facts on my side not emotion.
You ask for evidence go and study trends of the earth in 10,000 year  or 100,000 year periods or more. Statistically you have to to even start to see trends. You cannot take the last 30 years as a sample size for a planet or the last 100 or 1000.
I don't mind paying more for anything if it saves my children or (not yet) grandchildren health issues in the future (not sure how YOU ASSUMED I would not). Also I like and enjoy safe and clean water, enjoy hunting and fishing ect.
I do believe in CLIMATE CHANGE not global warming. They taught this when I went to school (ice age ring a bell). I just do not think we have as big of an effect on it as some would like us to think.
Again we all have our agenda.................

[Shredder]

I find your rants extremely offensive. Who do you think you are to talk this way to those of us that may not see every issue the way you see them. I suppose you have all the answers to lifes delimas and everyone that doesn't agree with you on every point is somehow beneath your superior intelect.
CajunCamper

Sorry you feel that way. You posted this 32,000 scientist sign a petition stuff, apparently without looking too far into it. I did. So now you attack the messenger?

I certainly do not feel superior to you or anyone, but when I read something that does not seem right, I have a tendency to look into it. If my tone somehow offends you, again I apologize. I promise you, I'll keep it above board. If the tone of those who who agree with you seem offensive, are you willing to say something to them, or is it just me who offends you?

I am glad we somewhat agree about Bush. I'm not a fan either. I did not think anyone felt he did not have some responsibility for our current mess.  I feel some responsibility myself for it, if I seen it coming I could have saved a bundle on my IRA. Like I said in another post I'm an independent voter, and willing to own up to my mistakes and willing to be swayed by reasonable arguments. I know he did not personally cause all this mess by himself, but on the other hand as president, his actions are well known and documented.

As to whether pop uppers do not share my concern on the environment, perhaps I went too far. But as people who love the outdoors I think we have an extra responsibility to help keep something  for the next generations to enjoy like we have. I hate it when people trash hunters too, but I help take care of a section of the North Country Trail as a volunteer, and every year after deer season there are tarps left blowing around the woods, beer cans left around their camps, just a mess, as a group I think hunters have an extra responsibility too. Then I hear the NRA complain about tree huggers and like minded people who really care about the environment as misguided hippies and they really care,  I cringe...........Shredder

[AustinBoston]

I predict this thread will soon be locked...

Austin

[wavery]

I predict this thread will soon be locked...

Austin

I hope not........isn't this what is referred to as, "Free expression". I haven't seen anything uncivil. People have the right to tell someone that they offended. I think that this exchange has been interesting and quite civil.

I won't even go to Yahoo or a lot of other sites because I just can't stand the way that people choose to express themselves. At some point, the line gets crossed and people post their ignorance. I haven't seen that on PUT. We seem to have a much more intelligent group of posters that have the ability to think (thinking is good) and disagree without getting nasty.

[waygard33]

With tongue in Cheek: It looks like contrary to what some might say...The debate is not over...

I agree it would be ashamed to shut down this discussion. There are some great opinions here.

I also saw the TV show that Austinado referred to and I really enjoyed it. I consider myself an independent and independent thinker. I believe there is a change occurring but I'm not yet convinced of the exact cause but I am open to listening to a real exchange of ideas.

As for the TV show, It was very interesting as a photographer decided to mount a massive project to collect data on the ice flows melting. He positioned 25 time lapse cameras (no small feat) at different locations and after a year, went back and collected the data. We saw things that no man has ever seen before. This took a very slow, monolithic process and sped it up into a visual that us short term humans could observe and understand. Also, using lasers and reflectors placed on the ice flow, they were easily able to measure the movement. I was surprised to hear that some ice flows were moving as much as 150 feet per day. They also showed the lakes that were forming on the ice caps, due to warmer temperatures. Some of these lakes were very big and up to 40 feet deep. They would suddenly vanish over night as the water finally found a way out at the bottom of the lake. They believe this water is running under the ice flow and acting as a lubricant, helping the ice to slide along much faster.

All in all, very interesting stuff and it wasn't presented in a political manner. No one was blamed. Just a presentation of the facts, based on these recent observations. Comparisons were done to previous climate change eras, using the ice samples and this was also very interesting. Based on the data collected, it seemed pretty convincing when they said that the glaciers/ice flows were already sliding and caving ((sp?) when the outer sections break off and fall into the sea) at a faster rate than they could be replenished by the snowfalls up stream.

Anyway, I'm interested. It appears there are some reasonable people out there doing real research. We should keep our ears and minds open and continue to learn and discuss it for the best interest of everyone. And regardless of climate change, I'm all for finding alternatives to fossil fuel so we can stop sending Billions and Billions of dollars to people who hate us. :usflag:

Wayne in Oregon

[Shredder]

I have a degree in geology and have looked at this global warming thing for some time now.  I have some questions for those that think man is the cause for the current situation:

Until we can answer, definitively, the causes of past warming trends, and compare that with today, we have no way of knowing how much of an effect man is having on the climate.  We need to have a baseline and know the normal variations in the climate and why they occur.  Then, and only then will we have enough data to see if the current changes are within the normal range or not.  And if not, why?

This is not to imply that we can continue to be gluttonous and wasteful in our energy and natural resourses use.  Being "green", for lack of a better word, and trying to minimize one's impact on the environment is simply good manners.

Hi Jim, I have no idea the answers to all your questions.

I do like and agree with your last paragraph about minimizing one's impact. To me that's common sense.

 I think we also agree the climate is changing, right? The cause? There's where we may disagree. I think some cycles do occur in nature and are out of our control. But there are man made things that do not help and are in our control. Here's some very basic info on this from the US Government  :usflag: , the EPA:

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/basicinfo.html

I do not want to paraphrase them but in essence they are saying, after looking tons of evidence man does contribute to climate change. I guess they could be wrong and  the overwhelming number of scientists who study this could be wrong, but at least by looking at evidence you start to get the picture. The pace and amount are open to question. Some may never ever believe any evidence, until it hits them. Heck a  lot of people still do not believe we landed on the moon.

Also why the change from global warming to climate change?
As I understand it, some places may get colder and some will get hotter, some will get wetter and some will get drier, even when as a whole the earth gets warmer. Many predict more violent storms as a result. So I guess the term climate change is more accurate than global warming.....Shredder