Need advice on buying a digital SLR

[austinado16]

Okay talented photographers, I could use some advice.

I'm looking to purchase a digital SLR with the intention of photographing my daughter doing gymnastics.  The gyms don't allow flash photography during competition, so I'll be needing to overcome that little (huge) snag.

I'm leaning toward Canon or Nikon, something like the Canon Xti or Nikon D80....or maybe better.  For the lens, it looks like I'll need a 70-200mm F2.8 because the equipment they compete on is positioned all over the gym....so one event might be right in front, and the next might be on the other side, maybe 50'-100' away.  Sometimes there's opportunity to move around and get close to the event, other times, not so much.

So any advice on what camera brand and model would be better suited, and what lens and whether I need image stabilization, would be greatly appreciated.

I'm thinking I'll need to be shooting at 1600 ISO with a shutter at 1/125th or better if I want to stop action.  But I'm concerned about "noise"(grainy) at 1600ISO.

The bad news is that this isn't an "ulimited budget" adventure.  I about fell over when I saw the price of 2.8 zooms from both Canon and Nikon.  I'm going to be shopping "prudently" for nice used stuff and hoping to take advantage of deals where people are upgrading to the latest and greatest equipment and selling off their year old gear.

Thanks!

[waterdoctor]

Okay talented photographers, I could use some advice.
 
I'm looking to purchase a digital SLR with the intention of photographing my daughter doing gymnastics. The gyms don't allow flash photography during competition, so I'll be needing to overcome that little (huge) snag.
 
I'm leaning toward Canon or Nikon, something like the Canon Xti or Nikon D80....or maybe better. For the lens, it looks like I'll need a 70-200mm F2.8 because the equipment they compete on is positioned all over the gym....so one event might be right in front, and the next might be on the other side, maybe 50'-100' away. Sometimes there's opportunity to move around and get close to the event, other times, not so much.
 
So any advice on what camera brand and model would be better suited, and what lens and whether I need image stabilization, would be greatly appreciated.
 
I'm thinking I'll need to be shooting at 1600 ISO with a shutter at 1/125th or better if I want to stop action. But I'm concerned about "noise"(grainy) at 1600ISO.
 
The bad news is that this isn't an "ulimited budget" adventure. I about fell over when I saw the price of 2.8 zooms from both Canon and Nikon. I'm going to be shopping "prudently" for nice used stuff and hoping to take advantage of deals where people are upgrading to the latest and greatest equipment and selling off their year old gear.
 
Thanks!

Austin - I don't know much about digi-photo stuff as I'm mostly a point and shoot guy, but you might check out this website
http://www.dpreview.com/[/color][/size][/color][/size] to do some comparisons.  I had the opportunity use a Leica digital SLR to do some aerial photography and was amazed at the quality of the pics.  I had the opportunity to fly a professional photographer around a couple years ago and the camera(s) he used were really high-end big $$ items. The pic quality reflected the high-end camera.  I doubt you're looking to get that pricey (>$10K each) but I would think you could get a good quality, high res camera that won't break the bank.  My guess is you should probably be looking at 12 - 15 megapixel resolution to help quiet down the grainyness when not using flash. Somebody told me that once:D   Hope this helps.
 
Steve

[Azusateach]

Austin, I don't know what part of CA you're in, but if it's So CA, you might try to visit Samy's Camera.  They're really helpful and often run specials on some of their stuff.  This weekend they may have a "no sales tax" sale, and when you're looking at several hundred dollars for a camera, it could be worth it.

As far as cameras, I'm impressed with the Nikon D90.  Could be the newer version of the D80.  It's got a great lens that comes standard with the camera, and looks like it might fit your needs.  The big selling point for the D90 is that it can also take video clips -- something new on digital SLRs.

Happy shopping!

[waygard33]

I'm about 7 months ahead of you on this and I'm happy to share what I have learned.

1) Shooting sports, especially indoor sports, is the most expensive area of photograhpy to get into. My problem started with basketball this past year. You need to be able to shoot in low light and catch relatively high speed action. I don't think you'll be happy at 1/125 shutter speed. For basketball, 1/400 was minimal to stop any blur and 1/500 or greater was preferred.

2) The camera is much less important than a good lens and there is where the cost is. I've been drooling over the Canon 70-200 f/2.8 with IS for quite a while. Currently goes for about $1700 at B&H photo (Very respected seller). I'm now shooting baseball and besides that lens, I would need a 1.4 teleconverter ($290)as the current lens I'm using (255mm) still doesn't get me close enough.

3) Image Stabalization (IS) is definitely preferred. Camera shake is a problem and to eliminate it, you must shoot at about 1/40 shutter speed or better (if your shaky). The IS system gets you about 3 stops so you can drop down to (just ballparking) maybe 1/20 second and still get a pretty well focused picture. This is really helpful in low light situations but of course, doesn't really apply to sports as you will be at a faster shutter speed anyway. The overall result is that you should come away with more keepers at the end of the day. IS isn't cheap. The non IS version of the 70-200 f/2.8 is about $500 cheaper than the IS version. Although not a significant help for your sports photos, that lens is also supposed to be a great landscape lens and it will greatly help you there. Picture yourself in the bottom of the Grand Canyon  :-() , the light is fading and you have no choice but a pretty slow shutter speed. The IS will be VERY helpful. 1 alternative...carry a tripod.

4) I purchased an inexpensive Canon XSi. It came with 2 kit (read cheap) lenses (and other stuff) for $849 at Costco. I'v since seen it cheaper. It's 12 megapixels which is way more than enough. I learned quickly that neither lens would work for basketball as they were not 'FAST' enough. Fast is the term used to describe how wide the aperature on the lense will open. The lower the number, the more wide open, the more light enters the lens. After much research and a limited budget, I found that a lot of 'sports' shooters on a budget purchase Canon's 'Nifty 50' lens. This is a fixed 50mm lens with an f1.8. This was my main basketball lens. Here's a sample...



Obviously, you have to be close to the action. The advantage is the lens goes for about $90. They also sell the 50 with f/1.4 and f/1.2. These are much more expensive. You can also get 85mm, 100mm, and 135mm. These are good options if shopping on a budget. I would love to have the 135mm f/2 L but it sells for about $950. Wow!

On a side note, as you open up the aperature, your Depth of Field (DoF) is reduced, which if you're not careful when focusing (hard to be when your shooting kids running all over the place), you will end up with more out of focus (oof) shots. It's always something.

5) Avoid the higher ISOs as much as possible. I do everything I can to stay away from 1600 but sometimes I'm there. It usually depends on the gym. The best gyms are lit so so. The worst gyms are really dark! Not really noticed until you're looking through a camera. The high ISO pics become noisy/grainy fast. You can purchase software like Noise Ninja to help make the noisy pictures acceptable but there's another $100 out of the budget.

6) When choosing a camera you must understand that you are choosing a system when you buy. Once you start buying the expensive lenses, you are locked in to that system. If I had it to do all over again, here's what I would consider...
* I would consider the Nikon system more, especially the D90 as it is supposed to do better in lower light.
* There are now cameras that also shoot HD video! I love that. The Nikon D90 does this. Canon has just now released the XT1 which is 15 megapix and shoots HD video. I took my camera out to shoot my son and friends jumping ATVs at the dunes and I was wishing I had my camcorder too. With these cameras, you have both. There are limitations but the compromise works for me. Imagine having your new camera in the Grand Canyon and being able to shoot some video along with the pics. Here's a sample of the jumps I was shooting. I just wish I had some HD video to go with it. *I'm currently hoping that Canon will update the 50D with HD video and that will be the camera I step up to...



7) I would say that anything over 10 megapixels would be fine. I bought my daughter the Canon XS (10 megpix) with a lens for $449. Also, to handle today's large picture files, you need a decent computer. I shoot in RAW (vs Jpeg) and each 1 of my pictures is anywhere from 12-15 megabytes! I view them, modify/crop as needed using Photoshop Elements ($100)(slimmed down version of the $500 photoshop program) or the software that comes with the camera ( less capable) and convert them to jpegs of varying quality and then upload them to my Smugmug site. With today's equipment, it's easy to go to an event/game and fire off several hundred pictures. Last night I took about 250 at a baseball game. It was easy. The moral of the story is you need storage space and a decent computer.

8)There is a lot of good used equipment for sale. Dgrin has a flea market with pretty respectable sellers. Also, Olympus is another choice as you can get into a really good camera for less money. Less choices on lenses however.

9) Obviously, I could go on and on. Since going head over heels with this stuff, I've found the Digital Grin photography forum.
http://www.dgrin.com/index.php
Not only are there great questions and answers to all types of questions, including folks wanting to know the best way to get started, but there are photo sections, including sports, where you can see other people's pics, from amateurs to pros, and see how they did it and what hurdles they had to overcome. You will find gymnastics, wrestling, basketball, baseball, motocross, etc, etc, etc. Also landscapes and anything else you can think of.

I hope this gets you started. There are also some great books on the subject. Good luck and enjoy!

Wayne in Oregon

[austinado16]

Thanks for that great write-up Wayne, and to everyone else who's responded.

Oh, and my name is actually Todd.  The "austinado16" thing is the factory's designation for a vintage British car that I'm known for being involved with (//www.austinamericausa.com)

I have been doing some reading at //www.dpreview.com.  In fact, I started first with their 70-200mm F2.8 lens reviews because I think that's the lens I'm going to need, so I wanted to look at what they thought of the Nikon vs. Canon, and the Tamron and Sigma versions.  I figure, since this is more a lens game than a body game, and the lenses are worth so darn much, I better shop via lens and then slap a body on it.  I can always upgrade the body as people sell off their rigs.

The big Nikon lens got good reviews, sort of, but it's really long.  The Canon lens got better reviews and isn't so silly long, so that's got me leaning toward Canon right now.  Also, I picked up a guy's 35mm Canon Rebel II(built from '92-'95) w/ nice gear bag, a Manfrotto monopod, a Canon 28mm F2.8, a Canon 70-210mm F3.5-5.5, a Canon 35-80mm, a Tamron 28-300, a Tamron 2x converter, a Kilimar 800-1200!!, about a dozen filters, including a PL, and a nice vivitar flash for $245.  So, if I go Canon, I've got a pretty nice bunch-o-stuff to go with it......sadly, all worthless in the gym.

I'm not sure I care about video on the camera.  I've got a Panasonic Lumix FX9 that is the size of a thin wallet, takes beautiful pics, and does video.  It's small and lightweight, and it's our camera of choice in the Grand Canyon.  It'll take 300 pics plus all kinds of movies on a single battery charge, so it lasts us the 3 or so days we are down inside.

I also just snagged the Lumix TZ1 which is almost the same size, but a 10x lens, and much better photos and movie quality....$100 on ebay.  If you (or anyone) are looking for small point and shoot with insane quality, consider buying one.  The new TZ5 is even better and at //www.buy.com they are $235ish  You'll leave your big DSLR at home, trust me, unless you're really shooting serious.  

For real video, I just bought a Sony VX2000 from a guy who had it, a lowpro backpack for it, and about $2,000 worth of gear to go with it, for $1,200 (for what was $4,000+ in gear).  So that will be the movie maker from now on.

I'll go over to the dgrin and check things out.  I've been leaning toward the xti's because I've heard they're better focusers than the xsi and maybe even the T1's.  But, I'm willing to spend up for 40d since it's probably a better low light camera.  I actually tried some 800ISO and 1600ISO in the gym last week and used the 35mm, playing around with tweaking the ISO up to 2000, and using my one 2.8 lens to do some close up poses of my DD.  Results were marginal.....and I think that was because the camera doesn't do a spot metering. So it was picking up on the brightness behind her I guess and that was throwing the light meter icons out of wack.  I was in manual mod and adjusting for the light meter icons, but you wouldn't know it by the shots.

Anyway, with a DSLR, I think I'll be in the 800ISO range, maybe even 1600.  Hopefully with the big lens, I can run 1/250th.

By the way, Canon has a lens rebate program on right now, and the 70-200 is $200 off.  I think at B&H it's $1,499.  But maybe that's not an Image Stabilized lens.

Speaking of which, maybe I don't need IS?  I'm not going to be shooting below 125th, so maybe I won't see any advantage in spending up for it?  What do you think?

[waygard33]

Todd, it sounds like you're all over it and well on your way. The amount of equipment you picked up is amazing...for $245. Wow!

The $1499 sounds like the price for the IS version of the lens. If the non-IS version also has a rebate, it should be at or below $1k. I think that for sports and a higher shutter speed, you'll be fine without IS. Sounds like you have all your other bases covered.

This past basketball season, I ran into several pro-photogs shooting pics to sell to the parents. They mainly had Canon 40Ds with the 70-200 f/2.8 lens. They were shooting at pretty high ISOs. My understanding is the 40D is a good 'ProSumer' DSLR which is pretty good in low light and is better sealed against weather vs the 'Consumer' cameras like the XSi, XTi, XS, XT1, etc. I saw their pics and some were good and some not so good. They were shooting at 800 or 1600 ISOs and were doing NO post processing.

No matter what equipment you choose, there's a pretty good learning curve. I'm happy to say that I've gone from deleting 1/2 of my pics to now deleting just a few. The deletes are typically due to OOF shots. That's another nice thing about the 70-200; it focuses much faster than the cheap lenses I have. That sort of brings up another topic...I do see several older lenses for sale. My understanding is that the focus and telephoto technology continues to improve. I'm not sure if a 15 year old lens will focus as quickly as a newer lens. This may be more important if you're daughter is running/tumbling across a wide matt. Not so much if she's walking a balance beam or something similar.

There's a thread on Dgrin today where someone is asking about the 70-200 f/2.8 vs the 100-400 f/3.5-5.6. The 100-400 is too slow for the gym but it brought up some good conversation.

Another link you would be interested in is this one...
http://www.kenrockwell.com/index.htm

Ken is a VERY opiniated reviewer and really stirs things up. He likes the older tried and true equipment and strikes me as your kind of guy.

One last thing...I don't know if you noticed or not but the different levels of cameras are also very different in sizes. The XSi (consumer level) is much smaller than the 40D (ProSumer level). The consumer level is more about plastic and as I mentioned, is not well sealed against the weather. Also, the Nikons are supposed to have a completely different ergonomic feel than the Canons. Many people consider this a large reason for purchasing one or the other. I haven't held a camera yet, that I haven't felt comfortable with.

Let us know how it turns out...and make sure you post the pics or a link!

Wayne in Oregon

[waygard33]

Todd,

I found this gymnastics post on the dgrin forum. It's a parent asking questions. Check it out.

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=125010&highlight=Gymnastics

and another...
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=108375&highlight=Gymnastics

and another...
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=119711&highlight=Gymnastics

Wayne in Oregon

[austinado16]

Okay......signed up at dgrin and did a search for "gymnastics" and found a bunch of threads.  So I've got some reading to do, and looking forward to it.

Looks like a lot of people even post their photos in their threads, so I'll be able to see what they're getting with what rig.

I read that "Shooting B-ball" tutorial too and found that interesting.  Especially since he talks about using different prime lenses instead of a zoom.  That made me think, "Mmmm, maybe I should go that route....get a 300mm and maybe 50mm."  But, I'm not sure I want to lug all that gear around and be switching lenses.

I think if the 40d is a bigger body, that would balance out their big/heavy zoom pretty good.  I've got a monopod so I could mount the zoom on that, and just keep it like that all day.  I've seen other parents do that.

The reason for starting into this is that, 1) I love taking pictures of everything we do.  2) The pictures that the pros take and try to charge so much for, aren't that great.  At least not the places we've been.  And they are so expensive.  I want a ton of pictures, not just one 5x7 for $20 with no negative.

I guess I'll read up at dgrin, watch Craigslist for 40d prices and zooms and see what happens.  I actually looked into renting at //www.lensrental.com  but it's $125 for a body and $109 for the big lens.  We have about 8-9 meets in a 2-3mo period, so for that money, I could just buy nice used stuff.

I really appreciate all your input Wayne!

Oh, by the way, I'm selling the Kalimar 800-1200mm if you're interested. I'll never use anything like that.  Fun lens though if you do outdoor stuff and want to reach out and touch something!  It's like brand new with the soft case and paperwork & warranty card.  I've tried it out and the magnification is insane.

[waygard33]

Okay......signed up at dgrin and did a search for "gymnastics" and found a bunch of threads.  So I've got some reading to do, and looking forward to it.

Looks like a lot of people even post their photos in their threads, so I'll be able to see what they're getting with what rig.

I read that "Shooting B-ball" tutorial too and found that interesting.  Especially since he talks about using different prime lenses instead of a zoom.  That made me think, "Mmmm, maybe I should go that route....get a 300mm and maybe 50mm."  But, I'm not sure I want to lug all that gear around and be switching lenses.

I think if the 40d is a bigger body, that would balance out their big/heavy zoom pretty good.  I've got a monopod so I could mount the zoom on that, and just keep it like that all day.  I've seen other parents do that.

The reason for starting into this is that, 1) I love taking pictures of everything we do.  2) The pictures that the pros take and try to charge so much for, aren't that great.  At least not the places we've been.  And they are so expensive.  I want a ton of pictures, not just one 5x7 for $20 with no negative.

I guess I'll read up at dgrin, watch Craigslist for 40d prices and zooms and see what happens.  I actually looked into renting at //www.lensrental.com  but it's $125 for a body and $109 for the big lens.  We have about 8-9 meets in a 2-3mo period, so for that money, I could just buy nice used stuff.

I really appreciate all your input Wayne!

You're welcome Todd! I have always been one of those guys who takes tons of pics. Finally, the DSLRs have become affordable and I'm really in deep now. Since I got my camera in Nov, I've probably taken 7 or 8 thousand pics. At least 1/2 of those have been uploaded to SmugMug. My wife enjoys showing her friends at work and my family in Chicago can keep up. It's easy to pic and choose and order prints.

Here's a link of the many baseball pics I've taken of my older son's team through just the last few weeks of baseball season. I only make about 1/2 the games as I coach my younger son's team as well (I have an excited Mom who uses my camera to take the team pics while I coach). I enjoy taking pics of all the kids and the parents can go to the link and view them and print as they like.

http://waygard33.smugmug.com/NHS%202009%20Baseball

Can't wait to use my camera on our next camping trip. Haven't had the chance to take it hiking or get some really good pics of my pup. :sombraro:

BTW...I've looked through your other websites (Austinado16 and Vintage water craft)...Just what you needed...another hobby...

Edit: Just realized you mentioned selling that giant lens...Wow. Can't imagine. I'm afraid I'll have to pass. I need to many others first. Thanks though.

Wayne in Oregon

[austinado16]

Going to smugmug in a moment, but wanted to post this for your viewing pleasure.  

Behold......

[waygard33]

Going to smugmug in a moment, but wanted to post this for your viewing pleasure.  

Behold......

HOLY 'What the Heck is that?' Batman?

That looks like something that fell off the space shuttle. What ever you do, don't look at the sun with it...It'll be just like being there!

Seriously, I tried to find some info on Kalimar. Never heard of it before. Just bits and pieces is all I could find. Sounds like they went out of business or became part of another company in 1999. Y2K must have got them... :book:

Thanks for posting the photo. Pretty cool. I'd have to hire an assistant to use the thing.

wg

[austinado16]

Purchased a nice used Canon 40D yesterday. Came with:
-Giottos LCD screen protector
-Canon Battery Grip
-Extra Canon Battery
-Canon camera bag
-"How to use your 40D" Book
-All its original cables and CDs

Now it's time to get reading and practicing:

[JohnandLeann]

Can I ask you where you bought your camera?  You can pm me if you don't want to post it here.  You don't even need to tell if you don't want.  Just curious is all.
 
Thanks,
John

[lexlaws]

gymnastics with no flash.... hmm. fast and long lens... equals pricey

[austinado16]

gymnastics with no flash.... hmm. fast and long lens... equals pricey

Uhhhhh, yeah.  Talk about throwing down a pile of cash!  I'm looking at the camera, which fits in one hand and thinking, "Mmmm....I only paid $250.00 for my Pop-up."  Of course I still need to spend about $800-$900 on the "fast zoom" lens I need in order to be able to shoot indoors with no flash.

John, I found it on Craigslist by doing a search for "Canon 40d"  It was $650 with all the stuff listed above.  But that was without a lens, and without a compact flash card.  A couple weeks ago, I found a guy selling a hole "collection" of Canon EOS equipment so I bought it all because there were so many lenses, monopod, filters, gear bag, etc.  So I just needed a modern digital body to go with all those lenses.  Here's a decent set up in Nipomo and it's been for sale for about 3 weeks with no takers.  Offer $550 and see what happens.   http://slo.craigslist.org/pho/1166601087.html

Here's an even nicer set up in Grover Beach, and again, it's been for sale for a few weeks with no takers.  http://slo.craigslist.org/pho/1160969637.html