I haven't heard much about Global Warming in quite some time. Did it go away, or have those that have been doing all the preaching moved on to some other cause?
I saw where over 32,000 scientist worldwide have now signed on to make a statement that any climate change we have experienced has not been caused by us wretched humans.
What an inconvenient truth for some people.
CajunCamper
I'm no expert on climate changes, but I'm going out to Glacier National Park this summer to see the glaciers before they all melt away. I understand they've lost quite a bit of glaciation there and are predicting to have all glaciers gone by a certain year in the future if current conditions continue.
Also going to stop at Yellowstone National Park before it blows up. That event would certainly return the glaciers to Glacier National Park! No predictions on that at this point.
Mostly, it's not news any more. Joe Sixpack couldn't give a rip about global warming or carbon footprints when he and his girlfriend are behind on their mortgage, have to take a job that's 30% off on wages because it's all they can get, their neighbor is being foreclosed on, and her kid is shipping out to Afganistan.
None of that changes the forces of nature (or of what we do/don't do to her), but they seem to pale in comparison. When things get better for us as a country, the subject will come back up. Fact or hoax, it's not going to go away.
Austin
I don't think the issue has gone away, but, the here and now is of more importance to many of us who have lost jobs, might be losing homes, etc.
Come summer, we will most likely hear more about it. Our central air conditioning units (the outside one) generate heat, as does all the asphalt we've paved roads/parking lots. And, while our forecasters never mention it, it does affect our weather. Ever notice that even in winter on a sunny day, you can stand on the asphalt barefooted and not be frozen? The sun's heat is absorbed.
PBS just had a great show on about the glaciers the other night. I think it was on NOVA. They followed around a few scientists who spend their time watching what the glaciers are doing.
In one segment of the show, they went to a storage facility here in the US (Colorado maybe?) where they have something like 45,000 ice cores stored that have been drilled out of glaciers. The scientists are able to read the rings in the ice, like rings in a tree, and they are also able to sample the air content in the trapped bubbles inside the ice. So they are able to to know how much snow fell in a certain year (on that glacier), how much ice the glacier made that year, and what was the CO2 content of the air, etc.
They posted a time line showing how air tempuratures mimick the amount of CO2 in the air, and how in the past history of the glaciers, high CO2 readings lead to major melting. The graph showed our current CO2 conditions were about double the content that they've ever been, even during the worst ice melts, in the history they are able to record using these ice cores......like maybe several thousand years.
The prediction was that glaciers will be gone within 50-100 years, and the Greenland ice cap will also be melting away.....not to mention antartica, and the north pole. Of course the later 3 will take more time.
It was all BDS ..........bush derangment syndrome.Now that Obama(he who walks on water) is pres everything going to be alright.........Bush was so powerful he could changed the weather in 8 years ...Wow what a guy......BTW what and how did all the penguins survive and evolve for cold climate if the earths ebb and flow of ice fragile....darn republicans........GO OBAMA GO WORLD CURRENCY NOW :swear: :banghead:
and it will continue to cost more and more to do our part against this evil force!
And you will feel good about doing your part and giving up your greenbacks!
psychic profit: the perceived benefit one receives from performing an action, even if that action leads to an economic loss.
Funny you should mention it. In yesterday's news, (03/27/09) there was an article on the "Entirely man-made global warming myth". Seems the earth has been cooling for the past eleven years and the cooling is expected to continue for ten more. The whole global warming myth was made up by the U.N. to transfer the money from developed nations to undeveloped nations. So says an official U.N. document to be distributed in Bonn, Deutschland on 03/29/09. This was reported by Fox news and the article is still there this morning.
Yes; as some have noted, the inconvenient truth is that the warming effect has been absent for the past decade or so. However, that doesn't take the wind out of their sails. Haven't you noticed: the language has shifted from "global warming" to "climate change." You see, with "global warming" you're screwed if the trend reverses itself. But with "climate change" anything that happens (whether warming, cooling, or just nastiness) can be attributed to human influence. It's a very subtle, but very real, and very important shift in language.
-Speak
"Earth Hour" is tonight - Saturday 3/28 from 8:30pm to 9:30pm. Homes & businesses around the world are dimming or turning off their lights during that time.
Quote from: SpeakEasyYes; as some have noted, the inconvenient truth is that the warming effect has been absent for the past decade or so. However, that doesn't take the wind out of their sails. Haven't you noticed: the language has shifted from "global warming" to "climate change." You see, with "global warming" you're screwed if the trend reverses itself. But with "climate change" anything that happens (whether warming, cooling, or just nastiness) can be attributed to human influence. It's a very subtle, but very real, and very important shift in language.
-Speak
Agree. I have noticed that key term change, and figured it was because of an ulterior motive.
Larry
I don't buy any of it. The earth is constantly changing. Time is on the side of the planet, not human kind.
Quote from: JohnandLeannI don't buy any of it. QUOTE]
If your interested in real scientific research look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_Change_2007:_The_Physical_Science_Basis
or any number of scientific panels, universities, or people who study these things, and have some rational basis for their views.
If you want to believe in conspiracies, theories about secret UN plans, political motives or something else, by all means feel free. Yes it is inconvenient, especially now with the Bush recession in full swing, but is what it is. All our speculating does not change anything.......Shredder
PS I'm glad I live in a northern state with a lot of water......
Quote from: CajunCamperI haven't heard much about Global Warming in quite some time. Did it go away, or have those that have been doing all the preaching moved on to some other cause?
I saw where over 32,000 scientist worldwide have now signed on to make a statement that any climate change we have experienced has not been caused by us wretched humans.
What an inconvenient truth for some people.
CajunCamper
Actually the petition was supposedly signed quite some time ago. Here's what a quick check found:
Interesting. I just took a look at their petition and found, by their own admission, that only 40 of the signatories have a degree in climatology (take a look here). By contrast, there are 58 astronomers, 575 mathematicians, 2581 mechanical engineers, 57 entomologists, 2075 mechanical engineers, and on and on. To be considered a scientist, one need only have a BS degree in any field of science whatsoever. I am married to a mechanical engineer. Most of my social circle is engineers of one sort or another. And I'm telling you, they know no more about global warming than the check-out clerk at Wal-mart -- maybe even less.
Not only that, but the signatures themselves are suspect. From Wikipedia:
In 2005, Scientific American reported:
And this from ABC news
http://blogs.abcnews.com/scienceandsociety/2009/01/a-meeting-of-sk.html
And this from wiki:
Many people simply need AGW to be wrong for political reasons. They're afraid that global warming will lead to a carbon tax, and for many people (particularly the politically conservative), "tax" is a four-letter word. Some people have gone as far as to claim that global warming is just a UN or communist plot to create some sort of one world order. Rather than attempt to make scientific arguments, these people generally make political arguments to justify why they believe humans are not causing global warming. Or at best they'll repeat the same old global warming myths.
However, global warming is a scientific issue. What we choose to do about global warming is a political issue (except on an individual level), and it is this which can be debated. At this point, with the overwhelming amount of scientific evidence showing that humans are causing global warming, it's fair to say that the cause of global warming is no longer debatable. That's not to say that people are unwilling to explain the scientific evidence or why the myths are wrong, but the causes are abundantly clear. Even the IPCC has decided to shift its focus to practicality and precision - providing more information about the actual impacts of global warming and what can be done to reduce GHG emissions growth, rather than what's causing it.
In short, there is no basis to the claim that there's no scientific consensus on AGW. Putting your faith into these lists trying to prove otherwise is often like asking a chemist to perform open-heart surgery. Unfortunately we're so heavily reliant (it's fair to say addicted) to fossil fuels that some people simply can't deal with the fact that our oil consumption is having a hugely adverse environmental impact. They would prefer to cling to any piece of information claiming otherwise to maintain denial on the subject. Fortunately a large enough majority of the population has accepted the scientific reality of the situation for us to make progress in finding solutions.
quote"especially now with the Bush recession in full swing"
your kidding right ......the CRA was perverted by previous administrations ...and rainbow push ,dodd and barney frank were in on it .DO YOUR HOME WORK...OH btw DO YOU "REMEMBER" 09/11/01 !
I remember in the early 70's all the talk was about acid rain. Trees in the east (Kentucky, Tennessee ect)were losing their leaves due to all of the coal buring power plants causing acid rain. Turns out it was just the cycle of life (naturally occuring tree blight). Then in the late 70's it was another ice age (cause we has some really cold winters). Do I think the climate is changing, yes it is. Everything is a cycle. Do I believe all the junk they are pushing? No because everyone has an agenda. Everyone. I find all the talk about how we affect the climate humorous. Kinda like a bunch of flees arguing about were the dog they are riding on is going and what they can do to change it.
QUOTE { Kinda like a bunch of flees arguing about were the dog they are riding on is going and what they can do to change it.}
Now thats even funnier then Al gore thinking he invented the internet. :-()
Quote from: viking camperNo because everyone has an agenda. Everyone.
We'd all get along better if everyone could admit it to themselves. Everyone has an agenda, including me.
Austin
Quote from: viking camperDo I think the climate is changing, yes it is. Everything is a cycle. Do I believe all the junk they are pushing? No because everyone has an agenda. Everyone. I find all the talk about how we affect the climate humorous. Kinda like a bunch of flees arguing about were the dog they are riding on is going and what they can do to change it.
Interesting, do you have any evidence to support your claim?
I suppose your right when you say everyone has an agenda. Mine is to provide a safe clean earth for my grandchildren. And yours is?
I've been able to eat fresh caught fish, hunt un-contaminated birds and deer, but also have seen wasting disease and TB in deer, tons of warnings on eating fish from polluted waters, seen tumors in great lakes caught fish, we still have pcb's in fish despite the ban ages ago, and on and on. I want better for my grand kids. I guess I'm not willing to give up a clean environment for cheaper gas or cheap products from China. Remember all the fuss about going from regular gas to un-leaded? We barely even think about it now, but it made a huge difference. I refuse to be blinded by the anti environment companies or people. It's funny and sad when you read how 32000 scientist say global warming is a mith, and it spreds like wildfire, people site it as evidence, and then you see their 32000 number is a mith, as is their scientist claim. Some of us are so willing to believe anything that would satisfy our desire for more and cheaper. I'm kind of surprised as well because as a group we spend a great deal of time out of doors, but most don't take the time or spend any effort to defend it.......Shredder
Quote from: LimeJeeeepquote"especially now with the Bush recession in full swing"
your kidding right ......the CRA was perverted by previous administrations ...and rainbow push ,dodd and barney frank were in on it .DO YOUR HOME WORK...OH btw DO YOU "REMEMBER" 09/11/01 !
Any pol who voted to end regulation on the banking industry should be held responsible, Dems and Repubs. I think Dodd voted with his biggest contributors the banks, I'm not so sure about Frank, do you have his voting record on it? I guess I do not know what rainbow push is, sounds like a icy treat. Remember Bush's phrase ownership society? he said he wanted all people to own their own home. He did however neglect to tell us how they could afford it. This how they pushed people into homes they could not afford. The persons who bought this, hook line and sinker have some responsibility as well. When your willing to falsify a loan ap even though your being pushed into it, your responsible as much as the bank. And now a lot of responsible people are paying the price.
BTW what's 9/11 got to do with the Bush recession? shredder
Quote from: LimeJeeeepquote"especially now with the Bush recession in full swing"
your kidding right ......the CRA was perverted by previous administrations ...and rainbow push ,dodd and barney frank were in on it .DO YOUR HOME WORK...OH btw DO YOU "REMEMBER" 09/11/01 !
Here's my HOME WORK From wiki on the CRA act and it's relevance to the current crisis:
[edit] Relation to 2008 financial crisis
See also: Subprime mortgage crisis and Global financial crisis of 2008
I have a degree in geology and have looked at this global warming thing for some time now. I have some questions for those that think man is the cause for the current situation:
What is the normal sea level and how much has it changed over the last 120,000 years? In other words, what is the range of variation, particularly in the last 12,000 years?
What were the "Climatic Optimums"?
What was the Medieval Warming Period? For thoses that believe in the myth (yes MYTH, not MITH) that it was a regional event, it does show up in the Vostoc ice cores.
What was the Little Ice Age?
Why are the ice cap on Mars disappearing?
Why has the Earth cooled in the last decade?
Why were the hottest years back in the early '30s? (Hint: read the CORRECTED NASA data).
Why was Iceland once called "Vineland"?
What happened to the Viking settlements in Greenland and the wine industry in the England?
Besides these little questions, the "glaciers" in Glacier National Park are not remnants of the last ice age. The ice age glacires are long gone, having melted between 12,000 to 10,000 years ago. The current glaciers are less than 7,000 years old. This is also true of the European glaciers.
Until we can answer, definitively, the causes of past warming trends, and compare that with today, we have no way of knowing how much of an effect man is having on the climate. We need to have a baseline and know the normal variations in the climate and why they occur. Then, and only then will we have enough data to see if the current changes are within the normal range or not. And if not, why?
This is not to imply that we can continue to be gluttonous and wasteful in our energy and natural resourses use. Being "green", for lack of a better word, and trying to minimize one's impact on the environment is simply good manners.
Quote from: ShredderInteresting, do you have any evidence to support your claim?
I suppose your right when you say everyone has an agenda. Mine is to provide a safe clean earth for my grandchildren. And yours is?
I've been able to eat fresh caught fish, hunt un-contaminated birds and deer, but also have seen wasting disease and TB in deer, tons of warnings on eating fish from polluted waters, seen tumors in great lakes caught fish, we still have pcb's in fish despite the ban ages ago, and on and on. I want better for my grand kids. I guess I'm not willing to give up a clean environment for cheaper gas or cheap products from China. Remember all the fuss about going from regular gas to un-leaded? We barely even think about it now, but it made a huge difference. I refuse to be blinded by the anti environment companies or people. It's funny and sad when you read how 32000 scientist say global warming is a mith, and it spreds like wildfire, people site it as evidence, and then you see their 32000 number is a mith, as is their scientist claim. Some of us are so willing to believe anything that would satisfy our desire for more and cheaper. I'm kind of surprised as well because as a group we spend a great deal of time out of doors, but most don't take the time or spend any effort to defend it.......Shredder
I find your rants extremely offensive. Who do you think you are to talk this way to those of us that may not see every issue the way you see them. I suppose you have all the answers to lifes delimas and everyone that doesn't agree with you on every point is somehow beneath your superior intelect.
You assume that those of us that haven't been convinced that global warming is totally man made doesn't care about the environment. You couldn't be farther from the truth. Sure there are those out there that have no regard for the environment, but I don't think that's the group your speaking to on this site. We all love the outdoors, most of us here have changed the way we do things in order to decrease our footprint here. I've never heard anyone here say they aren't in favor of a cleaner environment, never. So for you to sit up on your high horse and preach down to all of us little people is a bit unsettling.
I have a lot of respect for scientist, but guess what, they are all mere humans and they make lots of mistakes. That fact is proven every day as they reverse older opinions almost daily. 20 years ago they believed this, now they believe that and in 10 years they'll change their mind again. There was a day when the top minds in the world thought the earth was flat. Science is defined as: The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
Science and the facts that science has proclaimed as undesputable fact have changed greatly over the years and thank goodness for that or else we would still be left behind in the dark ages.
And another thing, I'm not a big Bush fan, I know he could have done things better, but to believe that this economic mess was started during the Bush administration shows that you don't do much homework before running your mouth.
CajunCamper
Quote from: ShredderInteresting, do you have any evidence to support your claim?
I suppose your right when you say everyone has an agenda. Mine is to provide a safe clean earth for my grandchildren. And yours is?
.......Shredder
Wow.
I to would like to protect the eviroment also. And I agree removing lead was a great thing. Also all the pesticides, propellants in aerosol cans and the many other things that have been done thru the years. But I like to move with facts on my side not emotion.
You ask for evidence go and study trends of the earth in 10,000 year or 100,000 year periods or more. Statistically you have to to even start to see trends. You cannot take the last 30 years as a sample size for a planet or the last 100 or 1000.
I don't mind paying more for anything if it saves my children or (not yet) grandchildren health issues in the future (not sure how YOU ASSUMED I would not). Also I like and enjoy safe and clean water, enjoy hunting and fishing ect.
I do believe in CLIMATE CHANGE not global warming. They taught this when I went to school (ice age ring a bell). I just do not think we have as big of an effect on it as some would like us to think.
Again we all have our agenda.................
Quote from: CajunCamperI find your rants extremely offensive. Who do you think you are to talk this way to those of us that may not see every issue the way you see them. I suppose you have all the answers to lifes delimas and everyone that doesn't agree with you on every point is somehow beneath your superior intelect.
CajunCamper
Sorry you feel that way. You posted this 32,000 scientist sign a petition stuff, apparently without looking too far into it. I did. So now you attack the messenger?
I certainly do not feel superior to you or anyone, but when I read something that does not seem right, I have a tendency to look into it. If my tone somehow offends you, again I apologize. I promise you, I'll keep it above board. If the tone of those who who agree with you seem offensive, are you willing to say something to them, or is it just me who offends you?
I am glad we somewhat agree about Bush. I'm not a fan either. I did not think anyone felt he did not have some responsibility for our current mess. I feel some responsibility myself for it, if I seen it coming I could have saved a bundle on my IRA. Like I said in another post I'm an independent voter, and willing to own up to my mistakes and willing to be swayed by reasonable arguments. I know he did not personally cause all this mess by himself, but on the other hand as president, his actions are well known and documented.
As to whether pop uppers do not share my concern on the environment, perhaps I went too far. But as people who love the outdoors I think we have an extra responsibility to help keep something for the next generations to enjoy like we have. I hate it when people trash hunters too, but I help take care of a section of the North Country Trail as a volunteer, and every year after deer season there are tarps left blowing around the woods, beer cans left around their camps, just a mess, as a group I think hunters have an extra responsibility too. Then I hear the NRA complain about tree huggers and like minded people who really care about the environment as misguided hippies and they really care, I cringe...........Shredder
I predict this thread will soon be locked...
Austin
Quote from: AustinBostonI predict this thread will soon be locked...
Austin
I hope not........isn't this what is referred to as, "Free expression". I haven't seen anything uncivil. People have the right to tell someone that they offended. I think that this exchange has been interesting and quite civil.
I won't even go to Yahoo or a lot of other sites because I just can't stand the way that people choose to express themselves. At some point, the line gets crossed and people post their ignorance. I haven't seen that on PUT. We seem to have a much more intelligent group of posters that have the ability to think (thinking is good) and disagree without getting nasty.
With tongue in Cheek: It looks like contrary to what some might say...The debate is not over... :D
I agree it would be ashamed to shut down this discussion. There are some great opinions here.
I also saw the TV show that Austinado referred to and I really enjoyed it. I consider myself an independent and independent thinker. I believe there is a change occurring but I'm not yet convinced of the exact cause but I am open to listening to a real exchange of ideas.
As for the TV show, It was very interesting as a photographer decided to mount a massive project to collect data on the ice flows melting. He positioned 25 time lapse cameras (no small feat) at different locations and after a year, went back and collected the data. We saw things that no man has ever seen before. This took a very slow, monolithic process and sped it up into a visual that us short term humans could observe and understand. Also, using lasers and reflectors placed on the ice flow, they were easily able to measure the movement. I was surprised to hear that some ice flows were moving as much as 150 feet per day. They also showed the lakes that were forming on the ice caps, due to warmer temperatures. Some of these lakes were very big and up to 40 feet deep. They would suddenly vanish over night as the water finally found a way out at the bottom of the lake. They believe this water is running under the ice flow and acting as a lubricant, helping the ice to slide along much faster.
All in all, very interesting stuff and it wasn't presented in a political manner. No one was blamed. Just a presentation of the facts, based on these recent observations. Comparisons were done to previous climate change eras, using the ice samples and this was also very interesting. Based on the data collected, it seemed pretty convincing when they said that the glaciers/ice flows were already sliding and caving ((sp?) when the outer sections break off and fall into the sea) at a faster rate than they could be replenished by the snowfalls up stream.
Anyway, I'm interested. It appears there are some reasonable people out there doing real research. We should keep our ears and minds open and continue to learn and discuss it for the best interest of everyone. And regardless of climate change, I'm all for finding alternatives to fossil fuel so we can stop sending Billions and Billions of dollars to people who hate us. :usflag:
Wayne in Oregon
Quote from: JimSI have a degree in geology and have looked at this global warming thing for some time now. I have some questions for those that think man is the cause for the current situation:
Until we can answer, definitively, the causes of past warming trends, and compare that with today, we have no way of knowing how much of an effect man is having on the climate. We need to have a baseline and know the normal variations in the climate and why they occur. Then, and only then will we have enough data to see if the current changes are within the normal range or not. And if not, why?
This is not to imply that we can continue to be gluttonous and wasteful in our energy and natural resourses use. Being "green", for lack of a better word, and trying to minimize one's impact on the environment is simply good manners.
Hi Jim, I have no idea the answers to all your questions.
I do like and agree with your last paragraph about minimizing one's impact. To me that's common sense.
I think we also agree the climate is changing, right? The cause? There's where we may disagree. I think some cycles do occur in nature and are out of our control. But there are man made things that do not help and are in our control. Here's some very basic info on this from the US Government :usflag: , the EPA:
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/basicinfo.htmlI do not want to paraphrase them but in essence they are saying, after looking tons of evidence man does contribute to climate change. I guess they could be wrong and the overwhelming number of scientists who study this could be wrong, but at least by looking at evidence you start to get the picture. The pace and amount are open to question. Some may never ever believe any evidence, until it hits them. Heck a lot of people still do not believe we landed on the moon.
Also why the change from global warming to climate change?
As I understand it, some places may get colder and some will get hotter, some will get wetter and some will get drier, even when as a whole the earth gets warmer. Many predict more violent storms as a result. So I guess the term climate change is more accurate than global warming.....Shredder
//www.rainbowpush.org....these are the folks where by protesting in lobbys of local banks , bank and other fortune 500 corporate headqarters,and then congress.extorting through the media the banking institutions to lower the lending standards (MORE G,MENT CONTROL NOT LESS )
We should develop all means of energy ,including eliminating tax on domestic production of fossil fuel.and stop sending all the money to our enemies
Quote from: LimeJeeeep//www.rainbowpush.org....these are the folks where by protesting in lobbys of local banks , bank and other fortune 500 corporate headqarters,and then congress.extorting through the media the banking institutions to lower the lending standards (MORE G,MENT CONTROL NOT LESS )
We should develop all means of energy ,including eliminating tax on domestic production of fossil fuel.and stop sending all the money to our enemies
Oh you mean rainbow coalition? Jesse Jackson's group? and they caused corporations and the g,ment to bend to their will? and this caused the current financial crisis? For me it's a stretch to follow that logic.
As to eliminating tax on our domestic production of fossil fuel. I guess gas would be cheap for the short term, then what? Maybe if we had real alternatives financed by (not taxes), what? When gas gets cheap there's no will to advance alternatives, I think we learned that back in Jimmy Carter's day. Remember his warnings on depending on foreign oil? Then gas got cheap and nothing happened......... Shredder
Quote from: Shredder.
As to whether pop uppers do not share my concern on the environment, perhaps I went too far.
Shredder
I found alot of conviction in your response. I just don't agree with everything.
In this day and age it is hard to filter all the information coming at you. From the newspapers to the internet. From TV shows to the news (CNN or fair and balanced?).
I don't think you need to worry if you went to far. I did not take offense. I was a little suprised but that just shows you believe in what you are saying. I hope during our life times solutions for all the issues facing future popup campers (and the non-campers too!) can be found.
Happy and safe camping
Quote from: ShredderSorry you feel that way. You posted this 32,000 scientist sign a petition stuff, apparently without looking too far into it. I did. So now you attack the messenger?..........Shredder
Shredder,
I applaud you for doing what you can do to clean up the environment, I think most of us here take extra measures to be "green" these days. If this whole global warming issue has done anything, it has raised awareness that we need to be better at protecting our planet. I remember when plants and factories used to dump their toxic waste into our rivers and oceans. It has been cleaned up over the years to a large degree. That was easy to put a finger on recognize a problem and then point to a cause. This whole Global Warming/Climate Change issue is not as easy.
Just like someone mentioned the ice caps on Mars are melting and the temps there have fluctuated at about the same percentage rate as here on earth. There may be some issues with the sun radiating more heat that we need to consider, it surely can't be man made there.
I don't have all the answers and neither do the experts, but I think it's irresponsible to base global policy on theory. We humans are an aweful arrogant bunch to think that we know so much and have that much of an effect on the universe. Scientist will lecture on what happened 10 billion years ago during the formation of the universe, but they can't tell us where Jimmy Hoffa is and he only disappeared 30 somthing years ago.
There's money to be made with the global warming issue and that brings out all kinds from both sides. Our friend Al Gore ownes a large stake in the group that will be handling the cap and trade exchange, he stands to make hundreds of millions.
Anyway I really posted to say Shredder, we're all good, I think we agree more than we disagree.
CajunCamper
Quote from: ShredderI guess they could be wrong and the overwhelming number of scientists who study this could be wrong, but at least by looking at evidence you start to get the picture. The pace and amount are open to question. Some may never ever believe any evidence, until it hits them. Heck a lot of people still do not believe we landed on the moon.
I'm one of the people that are not completely convinced that we ever landed on the Moon. I am convinced that our gvm't is capable of contriving almost anything. You see, our gvm't has very little credibility and that's nothing new.. Take the nuclear weapons and WMD program that Iraq had......remember all of the "Irrefutable proof" (I thought I was going to barf when Colin Powell said that) that was presented to the UN by Collin Powell? Remember all of the pictures of the nuclear facilities under construction and huge trucks that were delivering missile parts and bomb making parts? ALL PHONY!!!!! Remember all of the pics of mobile chemical labs?? ALL phony!!!! Would it have been hard to phony the Moon landing video? Not at all and there was plenty of political reason to do it at the time. When it comes to gvm't....it's ALL about agenda....
Have you ever seen recent pictures of the "Junk" left on the Moon? I haven't. Why hasn't Hubble taken some pics of it????
Yes there are agendas involved in all of the global warming and climate change "theories", just like there was an agenda in WMDs in Iraq. Is it bad to conserve??? Of course not.....will it "save our planet"???? I think that's a bit naive and yes, maybe event arrogant on our part.
A single volcanic irruption can make more of a climate change than all that man has done or can do in thousands of years (short of nuclear annihilation). Does that excuse us from abusing our environment??? I don't think so.....no more than us having an excuse to beat our kids just because the guy down the street does it.
sample size is way too small, period.
'The good news is that as fewer people turn to the old dieing media outlets for their news, turning instead to the new media for news, the new media outlets are in a position to inform the public of the real science and the findings of the climate realists.'
Doesn't turning off the lights for an hour solve it?
Oh, I had to turn them on before I could turn them off, wanted to do my turning them off part, guess I should of just left them off!
you get the typing award ......i will never agree with you and so far Obama(he who walks on water) hasn,t taken my right to disagree
Quote from: LimeJeeeepyou get the typing award ......i will never agree with you and so far Obama(he who walks on water) hasn,t taken my right to disagree
YET!!!! :compumad:
Quote from: waveryI'm one of the people that are not completely convinced that we ever landed on the Moon. I am convinced that our gvm't is capable of contriving almost anything. You see, our gvm't has very little credibility and that's nothing new.
But it's been able to keep 10,000 people quiet (probably more) for 40 years? If you believe what you do about the government, then that is virtual proof that the moon landings were real.
QuoteTake the nuclear weapons and WMD program that Iraq had......remember all of the "Irrefutable proof" (I thought I was going to barf when Colin Powell said that) that was presented to the UN by Collin Powell? Remember all of the pictures of the nuclear facilities under construction and huge trucks that were delivering missile parts and bomb making parts? ALL PHONY!!!!!
And all totally exposed. That was something the government that really, really wanted you to believe. But it was something they weren't capable of keeping the lid on for even a year or two...but what would have to have been a much bigger fraud...they've kept the lid on for 40 years? The credibility rule leans very strongly in one direction.
QuoteRemember all of the pics of mobile chemical labs?? ALL phony!!!! Would it have been hard to phony the Moon landing video? Not at all.
Actually, it's still almost impossible
today. There is one thing that nobody, anywhere has ever been able to fake. Until the advent of computers millions of times more powerful than anything NASA (or anyone else in the world) had, nobody was even able to suggest a way it could be faked. In all those videos, no matter how much dust they kicked up, they never ended up with a cloud of dust. Today, it could be CG'd. With those old computers, they'd just be getting to the 32nd frame (one second) of the video. It was done in space.
QuoteHave you ever seen recent pictures of the "Junk" left on the Moon? I haven't. Why hasn't Hubble taken some pics of it????
The smallest thing the Hubble could take photos of on the moon would be the size of a sports stadium or larger. The biggest piece of junk we left on the moon was smaller than a one-car garage.
But...the lazer reflectors left on the moon by the astronauts are still there, and are still used hundreds of times a year to measure the precise distance to the moon...within inches. The astronomers using them rely on them...because they are really there.
Oh, and this is from people not working for the govm't:
direct evidence of apollo 15 on the moonDuring the whole of every flight, the Soviet Union monitored every bit of radio traffic. They had an
extremely powerful political motive to debunk the whole thing - we beat them. But they have never even suggested that it was faked. Was it because
they knew it wasn't?One more thing...near the bottom of this page:
Japanese probe of Apollo sites are a pair of images...one made by a stereo camera pair on the Japanese probe currently in lunar orbit, then asembled from the astronaut's perspective (much the way Google Earth allows projecting satellite imagry onto a terain map to see mountins in 3D), the other made by Apollo 15 astronauts. (The Japanese probe image is only showing the background, miles away). Since there was no way to know and fake the terrain in this much detail at the time, the Apollo photos
could only have been taken on the moon itself.Lunar landing science is real, and cost a fortune. Moon hoax gobledygook is free, and sells books and interviews.
Austin
PS - None of this evidence will be accepted by solid hoaxers. Either they will say NASA had some way of faking the photos anyway, or they will claim that the Japanese government was paid off (or threatended) by our government. The firm hoax believers will never accept any evidence. I have dealt with some who would not believe, even if they were loaded onto a spacecraft and flown to the moon to be shown in person.
Quote from: AustinBostonMoon hoax gobledygook is free, and sells books and interviews.
How is that any different from the topic at hand?
One difference is the cost of all this green stuff - 1/2 of the four CFL I have failed within minutes of install! I've got regular incandescnts that don't get used often that have lasted 10+ years, some 20+
QuoteI've got regular incandescnts that don't get used often that have lasted 10+ years, some 20+
And they are not considered hazardous waste either like CFL's. We have to handle florescent bulbs at work as hazardous material and dispose of them accordingly.
Quote from: CajunCamperThere's money to be made with the global warming issue and that brings out all kinds from both sides. Our friend Al Gore ownes a large stake in the group that will be handling the cap and trade exchange, he stands to make hundreds of millions.
Anyway I really posted to say Shredder, we're all good, I think we agree more than we disagree.
CajunCamper
Do you have a source for Al gore making money on cap and trade? I looked (google) and could not find any. I thought the US government wanted to sell carbon permits that companies could buy, sell or trade. In the end it would cost more to send carbon emissions into the air. That would cost us more for electric produced by dirtier things like coal and make incentives for electric produced by cleaner technologies like wind and solar. I can see how companies who are ahead of the curve could clean up, and companies who resist change could fall behind, is this what Al's doing?
One thing about all this is if I'm wrong were out some money and the earth is a little cleaner, if I'm right, well lets just say the downside is much bigger.......Shredder
edit I found this on Al Gore He is chairman of an investment company that takes stakes in grean companies from wiki:
Generation Investment Management LLP
Type Independent, private, owner-managed partnership
Founded 2004
Headquarters London, England
Washington, D.C.
Key people Al Gore, Chairman
David Blood, Managing Partner
Mark Ferguson, Chief Investment Officer
Peter Harris, Chief Operating Officer
Peter S. Knight, President of Generation U.S.
Colin le Duc, Head of Research
Employees 32 (2008)
Website
//www.generationim.com Generation Investment Management LLP (GIM) is a London-based investment management firm with an investment style that blends traditional equity research with a focus on sustainability factors, including social and environmental responsibility and corporate governance.
Former U.S. Vice President Al Gore is chairman of Generation, and David Blood
I'm all for returning the earth to its state some 4.6+ billion years ago when not much life existed. It is a shame what has happened to earth since then. How much would that cost?
Quote from: LimeJeeeepyou get the typing award ......i will never agree with you and so far Obama(he who walks on water) hasn,t taken my right to disagree
:-() I barely passed 9th grade typing (40 words per minute) and now I get an award. I owe it all to spell check. :-()
Hey, we may agree on something sooner or later, we both like camping, right?
You may not like our new president but 70% of Americans think he is doing a good job. I'm willing to give him a chance to succeed, if he does, we all do......Shredder
I can't find any poll that has Obama at 70% (3/2009). See previous sample size comment! Facts, just facts or state it is opinion!
Where does the money go and why is it always about spending my money?
He has succeeded to cause 'generational theft'. I don't think that will turn out well, but hey, I don't have any off spring cause that would strain the envirment.
Rasmussen on Obama as of 4/1/09:
Total approve: 57%
Total disapprove: 41%
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/obama_approval_index_history
Quote from: JimSRasmussen on Obama as of 4/1/09:
Total approve: 57%
Total disapprove: 41%
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/obama_approval_index_history
That's lower than Jimmy Carter at this stage of the game.
Quote from: ShredderDo you have a source for Al gore making money on cap and trade?
Check out the following piece at the link below.
http://www.capitalresearch.org/pubs/pdf/v1185475433.pdfIt sure sounds like Al Gore has been positioning himself for years. In my opinion, this man is an opportunist and hypocrite at best. I don't trust him and I sure don't want him driving global policy on this issue.
CajunCAmper
Quote from: CajunCamperCheck out the following piece at the link below.
http://www.capitalresearch.org/pubs/pdf/v1185475433.pdf
It sure sounds like Al Gore has been positioning himself for years. In my opinion, this man is an opportunist and hypocrite at best. I don't trust him and I sure don't want him driving global policy on this issue.
CajunCAmper
Your source is CRC Capital Research Center (right wing political think tank) Looks like they have been positioning themselfs for years as well. From wiki :
The Capital Research Center came under fire in the 1990s for publishing studies highly critical of charities which engaged in anti-tobacco lobbying efforts.[9]. These charities include the American Heart Association, the American Lung Association and the American Cancer Society. It was later revealed that tobacco giant Philip Morris provided $50,000 in funding to the Capital Research Center
Al Gore is no longer in politics, and said he no longer would run for anything. I don't think I have anything to fear from him. I liked his movie, it was an eye opener. If he makes some bucks from going green like T Bone Pickens also wants to do, more power to him.....Shredder
Quote from: JimSRasmussen on Obama as of 4/1/09:
Total approve: 57%
Total disapprove: 41%
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/obama_approval_index_history
This just in 19 hours ago:
Obama's 66 per cent approval rating represents a slap in the face to the Republicans, who have been trying for weeks to pin the blame for the ongoing economic meltdown on the new president, calling it the "Obama Recession." They also assailed him last week for his media blitz, saying he should be in the Oval Office hard at work, not yukking it up with Leno.
The poll suggests Americans aren't buying any notion of an "Obama Recession" - 80 per cent of them blame Wall Street, not Obama, for the country's economic woes. Sixty per cent of those surveyed also said they favoured Obama's approach to the economic crisis.
There were some chinks in the armour - only 64 per cent said they were confident that Obama's policies would actually improve the economy, down from 72 per cent just before he took office in January.
And just 42 per cent said the country was heading in the right direction, although that's the highest percentage of Americans to say so in five years.
Most modern-day commanders-in-chief have been in the mid-50s at this point in their presidencies, with the exception of Harry S. Truman, Dwight D. Eisenhower and John F. Kennedy, who were all well into the 70s. But all three of those presidents were beginning their administrations during periods of economic prosperity.
As Obama arrived in Europe on Tuesday for his first overseas trip as president, another poll found that 80 per cent of Americans believed he'd represent his country well to the world.
Shredder
Quote from: ShredderYour source is CRC Capital Research Center (right wing political think tank) Looks like they have been positioning themselfs for years as well. From wiki :
The Capital Research Center came under fire in the 1990s for publishing studies highly critical of charities which engaged in anti-tobacco lobbying efforts.[9]. These charities include the American Heart Association, the American Lung Association and the American Cancer Society. It was later revealed that tobacco giant Philip Morris provided $50,000 in funding to the Capital Research Center
Al Gore is no longer in politics, and said he no longer would run for anything. I don't think I have anything to fear from him. I liked his movie, it was an eye opener. If he makes some bucks from going green like T Bone Pickens also wants to do, more power to him.....Shredder
Shredder, you seem too smart and too on the ball to be this naive. They got you my friend, they got you.
You keep quoting wikipedia as the gospel and anytime someone else post something you dismiss it. You do realize that anyone can contribute content to wikipedia and anyone can edit whats there. If you don't believe me, then go to wikipedias website and click on their about wikipedia page. They will tell you themselves that the info is not always accurate.
It seems to me you keep wanting to divide people into groups. It's not all black and white like you seem to believe. You talk about Democrates vs Republicans and you bring up how one Republican talked bad about Obama and on and on.
If you want to believe the sky is falling and it's all because of what we humans have done, then go for it. As far as I can tell from everything you've said, unless I'm wrong, you believe it's a man made issue 100%.
You don't seem to want to discuss the possibility that there are other contributing factors such as the possibility of an increase in temperature in our oceans being caused by an increase in temparture of our earth's core. In other words the temps are rising from the inside out. Yellowstone is having increased activity right now bringing the ground temperature and the water temperatures up. We just had a pretty good eruption caught on film the other day in the ocean where an island is actually being created. I'm sure that had to have an impact on the temps of the water and the air not to mention all the stuff it spewed acouple of miles into the sky. There is so much more going on under our oceans that we can even begin to understand or even explore.
I think most of us that have posted here that aren't convinced that this is all man made would admit that we do have an effect on the environment and that we could all do a better job taking care of the planet. But I think most of us feel like there's too much gray area in this issue.
I know T. Boone Pickens stands to make a bundle from wind generated energy and probably from natural gas but the difference between him and Al Gore is that Al Gore was Vice President of the United States and in the minds of many, his opinion carries more weight. He also has access to world leaders and the inner circles that Pickens doesn't. Gore started laying the ground work for all of this while in office.
The answers will not be found in the black and white, but in the gray areas, and Al Gore does not live in the grey area.
CajunCamper
i don,t have the time to type .have lots to say and slow fingers .Thanks to be a refrig and a/c mechanic like my dad.......yes we do like camping and i like the grateful dead and nature ....but Obama(he who walks on water) and his koolaid drinkers and communist followers are going to be a bigger detriment to the constitution than carter or clinton ever hope to be.....BTW why won,t they release their thesis from college..You know why its riddled with marxist veiws.... he will get some credit for a recovery of some sorts....I predict he is a 1 term president....I,m glad he is in office now hes bringing out all the other socialist and RINOs of the other side of the isle..........2010 buddy here we come .....
Quote from: CajunCamperYou keep quoting wikipedia as the gospel and anytime someone else post something you dismiss it. You do realize that anyone can contribute content to wikipedia and anyone can edit whats there. If you don't believe me, then go to wikipedias website and click on their about wikipedia page. They will tell you themselves that the info is not always accurate.
It seems to me you keep wanting to divide people into groups. It's not all black and white like you seem to believe. You talk about Democrates vs Republicans and you bring up how one Republican talked bad about Obama and on and on.
If you want to believe the sky is falling and it's all because of what we humans have done, then go for it. As far as I can tell from everything you've said, unless I'm wrong, you believe it's a man made issue 100%.
You don't seem to want to discuss the possibility that there are other contributing factors such as the possibility of an increase in temperature in our oceans being caused by an increase in temparture of our earth's core. In other words the temps are rising from the inside out. Yellowstone is having increased activity right now bringing the ground temperature and the water temperatures up. We just had a pretty good eruption caught on film the other day in the ocean where an island is actually being created. I'm sure that had to have an impact on the temps of the water and the air not to mention all the stuff it spewed acouple of miles into the sky. There is so much more going on under our oceans that we can even begin to understand or even explore.
I think most of us that have posted here that aren't convinced that this is all man made would admit that we do have an effect on the environment and that we could all do a better job taking care of the planet. But I think most of us feel like there's too much gray area in this issue.
I know T. Boone Pickens stands to make a bundle from wind generated energy and probably from natural gas but the difference between him and Al Gore is that Al Gore was Vice President of the United States and in the minds of many, his opinion carries more weight. He also has access to world leaders and the inner circles that Pickens doesn't. Gore started laying the ground work for all of this while in office.
The answers will not be found in the black and white, but in the gray areas, and Al Gore does not live in the grey area.
CajunCamper
Cajun my friend, How I find stuff on the net is mostly by googling a key phrase then exploring from there. If google brings up a right wing web site or a left wing web site I dismiss it. I do go to wiki a lot because they have zero political agenda, and anyone can contribute, if it's inaccurate info it is soon taken down.
As to what I think about climate change perhaps you should re read my post or maybe I was not clear enough. :confused: I have not heard anyone here say this is 100% man made. Let me clarify it for you. I agree with the US government :U and their link I sited (EPA) that says along with natural cycles and things out of our control man has contributed to climate change. My conclusion from that is we can change our behavior but have little effect on natural cycles, and like I mentioned in another post if I'm wrong were out some money and have a little cleaner environment, if I'm right, things get bad for our grandkids. I don't go to right wing think tanks for scientific info, or for accurate info on Al Gore, just like I would not go to the dentist for a sore arm.
I also am not scared by boogie men, whether it's unions in this other thread that got political, Al Gore, Obama ( frankly I think a lot of the resentment of him is based on prejudice), some vast left wing or right wing conspiracies either. But when, and let me clear here, overwhelming scientific research by climatologists (Nasa, EPA, others) say man does contribute to climate change I tend to believe. The arguments aginst posted here by you and others seem to be more political, like this 32000 scientists, thread, and not based on sound science. There are some reasonable scientists that don't feel this way (no one posted this though) but they are definitely in the minority. Even that liberal W. :D concluded that in his last year in office, of course he did nothing about it though.
I'll let you have the last word here, we stopped talking science, we all are edgy about the economy and two wars and everything else that has hit us lately and this political stuff is tiring, so I'll let this dog die :eyecrazy:
( frankly I think a lot of the resentment of him is based on prejudice),
Are you calling me and others racist.....Listen buddy I hate everyone equally.....I know lots of black folks that voted for Obama(he who walks on water)because he is black despite his positions now thats racist.
Quote from: Shredderof course he did nothing about it though.
Objection your honor, facts not in evidence. (can we stick to facts)
I do believe he turned his lights off for an hour the other day! That's not enough?
Quote from: LimeJeeeep( frankly I think a lot of the resentment of him is based on prejudice),
Are you calling me and others racist .....Listen buddy I hate everyone equally.....I know lots of black folks that voted for Obama(he who walks on water)because he is black despite his positions now thats racist.
I missed that......................that is one ugly cop-out. Obama himself doesn't even use that. That's the one thing that I respect about the guy the most.....Other than that, the guy is just plain inexperienced and doesn't have a clue what he's doing...........other than that, I like the guy, on a personal level. He's just way in over his head......I don't care what color he is.
Shredder,
Since you have allowed me to have the last word, I would like to end in agreement rather than disagreement. We both care about the condition of our planet. We both want our waters to be clean, our air to be fresh and our soil to be free of contaminates. We want a better world for our kids and our grand kids and for their grand kids. We both enjoy camping and the many wonderful things camping brings to our lives and the lives of our family. One of the wonderful things camping offers is an opportunity to meet, be with and enjoy talking to the fine folks we meet along the way such as the folks on this site.
And lastly we are both opinionated and passionate about what we believe in and that is good as well.
Shredder, I was never upset with you and hope that I didn't come accross in a way that felt personal to you. I do like a good friendly arguement though and I have a feeling that you do too.
Happy Camping
CajunCamper