RE: For those of you who tow w/ mini-vans

[ESPLUND98]

 Acts 2:38 girl
We are looking at the starcraft centennial 3606 dry wt of 2502 and a gvr of 3500.   Problem # 1... can not seem to get a straight answer as to  if I will be towing too much.  The max is 2000 lbs without tow package( which we do not have).  We have a 98 Toyota Seinna, the manufacturer said a tow package has a larger fan and a trans cooler. We can get the trans cooler from our mechanic but not the larger fan.  From all my many calculations I can tow a max of cargo including passengers and van wt of 7800 lbs (with tow package) our van and passenger wt is about 4200 lbs. the camper is 2502lbs. total of 6700lbs
 
 How much cargo food clothes coolers bikes etc. does the average family add to the weight?
 
 Is it unrealatic to consider towing with a mini van?
 
 Will an after factory installation of a trans cooler be sufficient to upgrade my van to allow us to tow 3500lbs.?
 
 Do we need to upgrade suspension?
 
 
 The other dilemma is if we upgrade to an suv then we would consider the antuiga... but i really don t want another car payment just to go camping.
 
 So what I am looking for is someone who tows  a similar wt with a similar van.
 Anyone out there?
 
 Bonnie  63
 Husband  58
 kids
  92, 98, 99
 
 presently in 99 starcraft spaceflyer
 98 Toyota Seinna
 
 
 
 Bonni

[ESPLUND98]

 Acts 2:38 girl
We are looking at the starcraft centennial 3606 dry wt of 2502 and a gvr of 3500.   Problem # 1... can not seem to get a straight answer as to  if I will be towing too much.  The max is 2000 lbs without tow package( which we do not have).  We have a 98 Toyota Seinna, the manufacturer said a tow package has a larger fan and a trans cooler. We can get the trans cooler from our mechanic but not the larger fan.  From all my many calculations I can tow a max of cargo including passengers and van wt of 7800 lbs (with tow package) our van and passenger wt is about 4200 lbs. the camper is 2502lbs. total of 6700lbs
 
 How much cargo food clothes coolers bikes etc. does the average family add to the weight?
 
 Is it unrealatic to consider towing with a mini van?
 
 Will an after factory installation of a trans cooler be sufficient to upgrade my van to allow us to tow 3500lbs.?
 
 Do we need to upgrade suspension?
 
 
 The other dilemma is if we upgrade to an suv then we would consider the antuiga... but i really don t want another car payment just to go camping.
 
 So what I am looking for is someone who tows  a similar wt with a similar van.
 Anyone out there?
 
 Bonnie 63
 Eddy    58
 Alison 98
 Brendan 99
 Kevin 92
 
 presently in 99 starcraft spaceflyer
 98 Toyota Seinna
 
 
 
 Bonni

[SactoCampers]

 ESPLUND98
I recommend against towing with this combination for a few reasons. The first *problem* I see is that your weights are off.
 
 
 

ORIGINAL:  ESPLUND98
 
 We are looking at the starcraft centennial 3606 dry wt of 2502 and a gvr of 3500.   Problem # 1... can not seem to get a straight answer as to  if I will be towing too much.  The max is 2000 lbs without tow package( which we do not have).  We have a 98 Toyota Seinna, the manufacturer said a tow package has a larger fan and a trans cooler. We can get the trans cooler from our mechanic but not the larger fan.  From all my many calculations I can tow a max of cargo including passengers and van wt of 7800 lbs (with tow package) our van and passenger wt is about 4200 lbs. the camper is 2502lbs. total of 6700lbs

 Sienna weight: You are a family of five and your minivan has an unloaded weight of around 3900 lbs. Two adults and three children add around 500 lbs of weight alone. So you re looking at 4400 lbs as opposed to 4200 lbs. Doesn t sound like much but it does add up.
 
 Centennial Weight: Dry weight according to Starcraft website is 2510 lbs. That does not include options. In my experience the common options such as fridge, awning, furnace, water heater, battery(ies), extra propane tank, and decor packages add about 300 lbs. I have also found that we add about 200 lbs of our own. So you need to add at least 500 lbs to the weight of the trailer just for those options and the stuff you plan to keep on the trailer full time.
 
 So we re looking at:
 
 Sienna weight (4400 lbs) + Centennial weight (3000 lbs) = 7400 lbs.
 
 
 

How much cargo food clothes coolers bikes etc. does the average family add to the weight?

 Not entirely sure, but probably more than you think. If you re bringing, say 3-4 bikes, you re looking at anywhere from 125-175 lbs. Cooler with ice, food and drinks? 50 lbs Clothes for the family? 100 lbs maybe. Other " stuff" , probably another 200 lbs.
 
 So now we re looking at 7400 lbs + 175 + 50 + 200 + anything else I ve missed = 7825 lbs or more. You would really have to weigh it to find out for sure. What I would do is on your next trip in the Spaceflyer, weigh your entire combination, then add to it the additional weight of the 3606 to get a feel for how much it would weigh.
 
 

Is it unrealatic to consider towing with a mini van?

 You can see the weight adds up very quickly and you will likely be over your gross combined weight. I don t recommend it and I tow with a minivan myself. I m not sure if the Spaceflyer is a slideout or not, but if you must have a Starcraft slideout, I would look at the 2409. You ll save over 200 lbs by going with that one.
 
 
 

Will an after factory installation of a trans cooler be sufficient to upgrade my van to allow us to tow 3500lbs.?

 Sounds like your mechanic answered this question for you. It sounds like you need a different/larger fan for the engine to keep the engine temps down as well as the transmission cooler to get the higher capacity.
 
 

Do we need to upgrade suspension?

 A weight distribution system may make that unneccessary, but you are a family of five (meaning you probably can t take out the rear seat to take weight off the rear suspension) so I would recommend it.
 
 
 

The other dilemma is if we upgrade to an suv then we would consider the antuiga... but i really don t want another car payment just to go camping.

 I wouldn t either. The grass always looks greener on the other side. When I start getting the itch to upgrade, I just say to myself, " I could be tent camping."  That sobers me up and makes me appreciate what I have [].
 
 

So what I am looking for is someone who tows  a similar wt with a similar van.
 Anyone out there?

 I don t. My popup weighs 2250 lbs fully loaded. The thought of upgrading to a popup with a slideout frequently enters my mind, but I automatically rule out a Coleman, Starcraft Constellation, and Centennial. I would consider the Starcraft series or a Palomino. The Palomino with slideout is significantly lighter than others, but of course, there are other tradeoffs that come with that. I figure the Palomino with slideout would weigh around 2500-2600 lbs based on the weight of my current Palomino and that s about as high as I want to go in weight with my Town & Country.

[ESPLUND98]

 ESPLUND98
Thanks for the info. I forgot to mention that we plan on taking out the middle seats when we travel with the 3 kids, so all three kids will be in the back/back seat...sounds like fun huh!  Thought that might decrease some of the wt.  Also the fridge and the hot h2o are included in the weight, but not the awning, ac , and furnace.  We do have and Explorer but i really like my minivan!   I thought about weighing every thing but where?  Can I just pull up to a weigh station and say weigh me???  again thanks for you input>
 
 
 
 Bonni

[SactoCampers]

 ESPLUND98

Can I just pull up to a weigh station and say weigh me???  again thanks for you input>
 

 Not the ones on the highway. But there are weigh stations that will charge you for a fee. I believe tlhdoc has a list or the link to their locations around the country. Some other options are going to your local dump during off-peak hours. They ll probably do it for free. Also, if you have a hardware store that sells/delivers raw materials, they will probably have a scale. That s where I weigh mine and they don t charge me. It s an ACE hardware so if you have one nearby give them a try. Here s how you should do it:
 
 1) Front minivan axle: With trailer hooked up, roll onto the scale with just your front wheels. Record the weight. You ll want to make sure you don t exceed the Front Axle Weight Rating (FAWR) that should be indicated on the sticker in your driver s side door jamb.
 
 2.) Rear minivan axle: With trailer hooked up, drive the front wheels off the scale, roll the rear wheels onto the scale, and make sure the trailer tires are not on the scale. Spacing here is sometimes tricky depending on the scale you re using. Record the Weight. You ll want to make sure you don t exceed the, surprise, Rear Axle Weight Rating (RAWR) in the same place as the FAWR.
 
 3.) Trailer Axle: With trailer hooked up, drive the minivan completely off the scale with only the trailer axle resting on it. Record the weight. You don t want to exceed the axle rating on your trailer, either, which should be posted in your manual. If not, it is uauslly the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) minus the stated dry tongue weight.
 
 4.) Tongue Weight: Back the trailer up and off the scale. Disconnect from minivan. Weigh the minivan rear axle. Subtract this weight from that you recorded in item #2. Record the weight. You ll want to make sure you don t exceed the tongue weight rating of your minivan and/or hitch receiver. This is where a weight distributor really helps.
 
 5.) Total Trailer Weight: Add items #3 and #4.
 
 6.) Gross Combined Weight (GCW): Add items #1, #2, and #3. Make sure it does not exceed your Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR). In your case it s 7800 lbs.
 
 

I forgot to mention that we plan on taking out the middle seats when we travel with the 3 kids, so all three kids will be in the back/back seat...sounds like fun huh!

 If your minivan allows, you may want to move the rear seat up to where the second row captains chairs are located so the weight of your children is split between the rear axle and front, rather than directly over the rear axle. This is possible on my T&C but I m not sure about the Sienna.

[OC Campers]

 Acts 2:38 girl
I just thought I would put my .02c worth.  We have almost the same situation at Austin Bostin.  We have 1998 Astro and a 2001 Westlake.  The Astro has no problem with power but the repairs out weigh the good things in my opinion.  Our van has 80,000 miles and so far is strong in the engine dept. but we have put over $4000 into it for repairs and it is stuff that you can t live without.  The rear differential went out and cost $1300 to repair.  both window motors went $500, now the vents for the a/c don t work.  Ok for now but come summer they will need to be fixed.
 
 I love the Astro for its room.  I have 3 kids plus all the kid " stuff"  and have plenty of room.  The front passenger seat is a bummer but when traveling I sit in the back with the kids and let my 12 year old ride shotgun.  I am 6ft 1 and it get really cramped even driving around town.
 
 Another good point with the Astro is it crashed well.  I had a lady take out the whole driver side of the van last year ($9,000 damage) and no one was hurt.  If I had been in a car or a vehicle lower to the ground it could of been really bad because she hit me right at the driver door.  I have also been rear ended twice and only the bumper suffered.  Again everyone was fine.
 
 I guess you just have to decide what is the most important to you.  
 
 Jacqui

[Acts 2:38 girl]

 OC Campers
Thanks for the advice guys, keep it coming!![]

[The Robinsons]

 Gone-Camping

 

ORIGINAL:  Gone-Camping
 
 You might consider one of the larger SUV s... The Dodge Durango has a third seat, and even the Explorer can be purchased with a third seat. And they have great tow capacities! I also have an Aerostar that runs great, and in these parts, NO RUST. I ll sell it to ya...[]
 

 I had a Durango and I loved it, except for one thing:  not very much cargo space with the third seat up.  I ve never seen an Explorer with a third row seat, but the Expedition doesn t have much cargo space, so I would imagine the Explorer with a third row wouldn t have much either.  Obviously, it depends on what you re going to carry around, but with my Durango, I always had to have the third seat laying down to accomodate all the extra " stuff"  that comes with children, dogs, etc.

[Firefyter-Emt]

 OC Campers
No No.. I am not gonna tow with a van.. I am going to stick a jeep seat in the back of the 4Runner and use that.. Come awn dear, you know I won t want to take " your car"  on vacation.. []  Give me a truck anyday.. Keep the hubs unlocked and slip her into 4low (unlocked) and creep it into your site...  []
 
 I will get your your mommy van, but I don t want to tow with it.. If my parents made us ride in the back of an extra cab dodge.. my quiver full can be forced to sit in leather claded comfort... with A/C...  (Geesh.. My dad used to bring us to FLA in August, sitting on those " floatation cushions"  Dodge called jump seats.. no A/C, no radio.....
 
 Geesh.. Gonna spoil them!

[Acts 2:38 girl]

 OC Campers
OK dear, whatever you think is best.
 
 Meanwhile, I think I ll go check out some Astro vans!  []  I KNOW you love to do everything in the most challenging way, but if the kids are cranky and shoved together, my trip is misrable.  It is not feasable to have them quiet the whole way to Virginia while sitting in such cramped quarters, no matter how much you want them to!![]  Last year worked so well because we had that huge van with the TV (highly recommended [])  
 
 The other question about Astro s is gas mileage?

[6Quigs]

 OC Campers
Gas Mileage?
 
 We don t get as good MPG as Austin
 

Under non-towing circumstances, we average 20-22 MPG, and typically get between 16-18 MPG with the trailer.

Usually 18 mpg whether we are towing or not.
 
 This is probabily as DW uses the Safari mainly for car pool, and short trips, and when we go camping, it s freeway driving.

[wynot]

 OC Campers
I d put my Tahoe up against an Astro fuel mileage, towing capacity, seating comfort, etc. and win every time.
 
 We went from two Windstars towing, to the Tahoe and we are absolutely amazed what fuel economy the Tahoe can get which is often better than the Windstar s best.
 
 The kids wouldn t be close enough to touch each other in the Tahoe.
 
 Don t look at the EPA stickers, our Tahoe beats highway and city figures, which the Windstar had trouble even getting.

[6Quigs]

 OC Campers

I d put my Tahoe up against an Astro fuel mileage, towing capacity, seating comfort, etc. and win every time.

Except maybe on price,
 Tahoe starts at $33,755
 Astro Starts at $23,365
 
 You could buy a new Astro and a new Popup for the price of the Tahoe!!!!!
 Seating in the third row of a tahoe is for kids only.
 Storage behing the rear seat is a joke.
 Remember we are talking about a family of 6 with a stroller!!!!!

[wynot]

 OC Campers

You could buy a new Astro and a new Popup for the price of the Tahoe!!!!!
 Seating in the third row of a tahoe is for kids only.
 Storage behing the rear seat is a joke.
 Remember we are talking about a family of 6 with a stroller!!!!!

 We have room behind the third seat?  OK, but the front seat passengers don t have to cross their feet to fit in the footwells...  []
 
 In reality, though, the Tahoe does give the versatility of folding up or removing part of the third seat, which if we had 4 kids, I would probably look at 3 in the middle seat and one in the back and use the space there, with the seat either folded or removed.
 
 I have to disagree on the third row being for kids only, though, 2 adults can fit back there and sit up straight.
 
 Quite frankly, if I had a family of 6, I would be looking at Suburbans anyhow.  The Astro and Safari aren t exactly roomy (we looked hard at them when we were replacing our minivan).

[Acts 2:38 girl]

 OC Campers

which if we had 4 kids, I would probably look at 3 in the middle seat and one in the back          

The only problem is I don t want them to be able to touch each other!!!  I know this sounds extreem, but it makes the difference between a peaceful ride and a stressful one.  []  They just find something so irresistable about tourmenting one another by putting feet on each other or leaning on each other.  I m trying to use the parenting technique of " diversion" .  Diverting them from each other for the sake of my sanity!!  I do really like the suburbans, though.  Oh well, I ll keep on exploring my options!  []